all 178 comments

[–]14io8 85 points86 points  (25 children)

Someone will have to do a similar analysis of Bart.

Lisa is the high acheiver with a bright future and Bart on the production line to be another under acheiving man/boy from a school system that wishes he would just disappear. That trope is pretty much normal today.

[–]LastRevision[S] 58 points59 points  (22 children)

I'm planning on watching the rest of the season and doing similar write-ups as they seem appropriate.

[–]eeeaddict 33 points34 points  (3 children)

There was actually an episode where they showed ALL of the men relates to them grew up worthless and the women were perfect in every way

[–]db1000c 52 points53 points  (2 children)

Yeah, the distant male relative who goes around getting in car crashes for the lawsuit money was one example, while all the Simpson ladies grew up to be doctors and lawyers.

On the subject, one of the most emotional moments of the show for me was the one where Bart has to pass a test to complete the 4th grade or he'll be held back. He tries hard and studies all day and night only to fail the test comprehensively. He gets bumped up because he demonstrates knowledge when he is crying. It kinda shows precisely that Bart is the sort of kid who schools would rather not deal with - or rather the sort of boy schools would rather not deal with - when they don't fit in with the one size fits all approach to education or when they show boyish traits. He really tries, he shows he wants to succeed and when he fails he is heartbroken. He doesn't deserve to be neglected by the school system, but he fundamentally is.

[–]14io8 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Bart is actually very capable. He orgainses the other kids. A natural leader. Very determined in all the mischief he gets up to. Its just no-one is interested in taking that energy and enthusiasm and guiding it productively. They just want him to sit down and shut up in school. And at home he has no-one to give him any direction. He doesnt know he is fucking his life up. But no-one else cares enough to really help, or knows the first thing about raising energetic young boys.

They fail at raising and kid, and then blame the kid.

[–]TheLife_ 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That basically read as chapter 1 of my social psychology textbook. There's a sentence in there that literally compares "boyish traits" to "disruptive behaviour" and explains that they mean the same thing. Just one demonizes and the other encourages these behaviours.

Nothing else to add. Just some commentary about how words can show which way the hamster is spinning.

[–]SgtBrutalisk 13 points14 points  (3 children)

I figured out at one point that the "Why you little!" running gag in the later episodes of Simpsons is actually quite terrifying - Homer grabs Bart and starts choking him while Lisa and Marge (if present) just observe unfazed. Then I realized that Homer never so much as scolded Lisa, let alone spanked her or, God forbid, choked her. Instead, it's all "oh, honey, daddy is going to explain it to you in sappy tone of voice, like this, yes he is, oh who's the daddy's little girl".

[–]M_rafay 18 points19 points  (1 child)

I don't watch Simpsons much so I may be wrong. But to be fair, Lisa is a prodigal child. Who rarely, if ever, does anything wron- Oh.

[–]TaylorWolf 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think bart hears "be more like your sister" more than a couple times in the first season

[–]skoobled 2 points3 points  (0 children)

These days I think that "perfect" fathering of daughters is almost as bad as grossly negligent

[–]14io8 11 points12 points  (9 children)


You might want to keep in mind this is not unique to the Simpsons. Over the same time period it happened to all sitcoms. I thought about writing something about it starting with the evolution from "I Dream of Jeanie" to "Bewitched".

The last sitcom I can remeber that included a father/man worthy of being a young boy's role model was "Growing Pains". But even that had taken up the stupid male trope for the son. Since then I cannot think of a sitcom that had a worthy male character.

When you consider how much of our culture is influenced bu tv an how gee men are even visible irl for most boys you can see how this is a problem. The under acheiving boys everyone complains about today are exactly like the boys and "men" they watched growing up in tv.

[–]db1000c 7 points8 points  (1 child)

It's a slightly different setting due to ages, but I always thought Marty in Frasier was a strong figure.

[–]Diarrhea_Van_Frank 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I always loved the father-son relationships in Frasier.

[–]redpillthrower 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"surviving jack" has a great alpha role model dad. Of course hes a bit "too far" in that area, but its far better than what one normally gets.

[–]colombianguy 2 points3 points  (1 child)

The last sitcom I can remeber that included a father/man worthy of being a young boy's role model was "Growing Pains".

"Family Ties" was another show featuring a good father, if I recall correctly.

[–]14io8 9 points10 points  (0 children)

And it had a high acheiving male adolescent in the family.

[–]chillmonkey88 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Might be wrong but Danny tanner from full house... Although he had to be mom and dad.

[–]captaintaint 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Carlton's dad in "fresh prince" is a good father figure I think, I would also say Michael Bluth in "arrested development " is an admirable father.

When I was a kid I liked ted danson in "cheers" and "Becker" . I thought both of those characters were men that didn't let women walk all over them, I liked his independence.

Edit. I saw some other comments mentioning "bobs burgers" and also " married with children "

[–]WhenIntegralsAttack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The last sitcom I can remeber that included a father/man worthy of being a young boy's role model was "Growing Pains". But even that had taken up the stupid male trope for the son. Since

What about 7th Heaven? I know it's not something that men typically watch, but the father figure was always portrayed as smart, competent, and thoughtful of his family.

[–]SgtBrutalisk 4 points5 points  (0 children)

BTW, great post, would love to see more stuff from you.

[–]TaylorWolf 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My favorite episode in the first season is Homers Odyssey would love a write-up on that one. He looses his job and considers killing himself etc.

[–]skoobled 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Lisa is high achieving, but is also frequently cold, elitist and unsympathetic. The men are frequently portrayed as dumb, but victims of their circumstances. Bart frequently doors crappy things but often realises the error of his ways at the end.

Lisa is classic career girl, alpha fucks, bound to be eventually alone

[–]tobythetiger 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There is an episode which does exactly that. Bart is looking forward to his first day of school and even says "School will be fun" on his way out the door. I'll let the wiki explain the rest as I can't find any clips of it.'s_Sax

[–]malesextoyquestion 176 points177 points  (3 children)

I really enjoyed reading this analysis.

[–]MysterManager 39 points40 points  (2 children)

At this point though, how many episodes in 25 plus years, are writers just like, "Fuck it, write he eats crayons."

[–]Dr_Nikk 10 points11 points  (1 child)

I assume whenever they're on a tight deadline, pay gets cut, or no one gives them shit when they are not funny. They definitely were not funny for a solid decade. I need Conan to write another episode. It would have to be great.

Edit: Forget a word.

[–]AnotherLostCause 102 points103 points  (72 children)

The purpose of all TV fathers is to show how unnecessary dad really is. Show that mom is the important one and that the kids who are growing up without a dad really aren't missing out on anything. I'm sure there are a whole range of statistics somewhere that show just how well adjusted children raised by single mothers are. It is sort of surprising that the MSM isn't showing us these stats so we can see how much more successful the children of single moms are.

[–]mattomondo 60 points61 points  (64 children)

The purpose of all TV fathers is to show how unnecessary dad really is.

Absolutely true now, but this wasn't always the case. I grew up with 90's sitcoms. My guess would be that the portrayal of dads changed in the late nineties. The sitcoms with dopey, but ultimately good and loving fathers were finally wrapping up around '98-99, such as Family Matters, Home Improvement, and Roseanne.

Perhaps the first of the weak fathers was Everybody Loves Raymond, which started in 1996. Even though Ray was fairly competent in his job, he was portrayed as a complete fool in leading the household. Control of the family was offloaded to the "more intelligent" Deborah.

By 2000 the traditional family sitcom had been overdone, and Malcolm in the Middle perhaps marked the first post-modern sitcom. It had a grittier, more cynical view of the family, and furthered the alpha-mom / weak father stereotype. From then onward, I can't think of a single sitcom that has provided a good father role-model.

[–][deleted] 39 points40 points  (5 children)

Everybody Loves Raymond

That show managed to earn my ire ever time it happened to be on.

[–]colombianguy 8 points9 points  (4 children)

I remember as a little kid catching an episode back when the series was first airing and wondering who the people were who were watching that show enough to keep it on the air. The Raymond character was hardly respectable as a man and the other characters were not very likable either.

[–]gravgp2003 1 point2 points  (0 children)

God I hated him in that show.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I watched it and thought it was hilarious. I didn't really care about gender roles when I was a kid. Didn't even realize there was an issue.

How naive I was...

[–]colombianguy 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Well, to be fair, I didn't really know much about gender roles back then either. But watching the characters on that show just felt wrong in a way that I couldn't yet articulate at such an age.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think that's what was so funny to me. The main conflict was between Debra and the Mother. The men were hostages the whole time. Each episode was a shit storm that ended in a cease fire.

It was surprisingly well written. This show and "Friends" were the two most popular sitcom at that time. (Seinfeld and Fresh Prince of Bel Air ended.)

[–]john-b 31 points32 points  (5 children)

Extremely accurate. Its true to an extent for all men on tv. It seems like every "Cop Drama' show now has a team of 5"4 model females who can beat up huge guys in impossible odds all while not smudging their makeup.

My once-best friend watched all seasons of Everybody Loves Raymond. Hanging out with him I watched a few. Every time Ray opened his mouth I was shocked. He was consistently a bumbling idiot, and the whole show was clearly made for the feminists.

I don't watch much tv anymore. Besides game of thrones and very few others. Haven't sat down & browsed tv in over 5 years. Feels damn good.

[–]topspeedj 8 points9 points  (4 children)

It's the same on police dramas in the UK too, loads of scenarios where the 'strong woman' character uses her feminine instincts to outwit the dummy male officers and is still able to run and catch up to, then restrain a male suspect (they're always male) on the scene, invariably involving her kneeing him in the balls. The type of scenarios that just do not happen in the real world.

I don't know what it's like in North America but I know that in the police here a female officer has to be accompanied by a male officer, for safety reasons. In many situations two female officers cannot be paired up on a routine patrol or shakedown.

[–]systemshock869 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Because of no guns? I'm pretty sure they are fine to go alone over here.. although they're also fine to shoot anyone who makes them feel 'threatened' so I guess they're pretty safe.

[–]topspeedj 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Maybe, the Met carries guns in special circumstances, and there are particular teams up and down the country that carry.

It's pretty terrifying that the police could go and just end someone's life, though it serves as a lesson to not deal with the police.

Guns carry a bit of a stigma over here. If someone owns a gun they're usually treated as a bit weird or crazy.

[–]systemshock869 0 points1 point  (0 children)

[–]john-b 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Damn. It's the same here too I think, in that my own observation I've never seen a female cop without a male cop present. I'm not trying to be sexist, but I browse Liveleak regularly (website for raw, unedited video of crazy shit) and I kid you not, in all the videos of cops I've ever seen (there are many) I have never seen a woman officer solo take down a male suspect. The male cops always do the main amount of work while the female cop stands with a taser or stands around shouting.

Women should do any job possible, but in certain instances their sex simply isn't built for it and if they can't pass the same tests as a man, they should be denied just like any man would.

But yea TV these days is bullshit. Since women spend the most money (it's usually mens money), even all commercials are geared towards women and as a result appeals to emotions and "feels" rather than logic or "X Reason you should actually buy this".

It's all a pathetic circus any smart person would shut off and leave behind.

My parents like to leave the tv on in the background even while they're not watching it, and if I turn it off they get pissed off. They are essentially saying "Please keep the tv on so while we're all in other rooms, the background noise can still subconsciously program us."

Fucking bullshit.

[–]1Rumble_in_the_Jungle 21 points22 points  (6 children)

Last Man Standing with Tim Allen is surprisingly good. They call out politically correct bullshit and the father figure is competent,loved and respected.

[–]Diarrhea_Van_Frank 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Last Man Standing is one of the best sitcoms around, and one of the last ones with a good message. It'll be cancelled by the end of the month.

[–]clonekiller 3 points4 points  (1 child)

If it does, I'll be writing a message to the networks about how it compares to the rest of the shitty sitcoms they pump out. Then using that comparison on how they are losing out on a big demographic, while they keep pushing crap into an already saturated market with no variety.

[–]Crackertron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don't worry, ABC doesn't have anything else to show on Friday before Shark Tank.

[–]Dark_Shroud 6 points7 points  (2 children)

I've been meaning to check that out only because of Tim Allen.

On Home Improvement I couldn't stand his character's wife, Jill. She was a real bitch and he clearly could have done better.

[–]Dr_Nikk 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Ooh, but Heidi was so so hot when I was growing up.

[–]Dark_Shroud 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes she was, so was Pamela Anderson whom Heidi (Debbe Dunning) replaced. Back then Pamela Anderson was actually hot too.

[–]magical_artist 13 points14 points  (0 children)

My guess is it is directly related to the number of single mothers out there. TV shows want to bring in the single mothers, pat them on the back, and say "There there, you kids don't need healthy role models, or parental time, financial stability, guidance etc.. You can do this all by yourself."

[–]10pack 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Ray was portrayed as the idiot most of the time, but Deborah also had her moments as well. She's an awful cook in the show, constantly trying to match her kitchen skills to her hawking mother-in-law, or force feed her children awful back-of-the-box recipes.

[–]igotbeatbydre 10 points11 points  (14 children)

Don't forget fullhouse. It practically had 3 dads

[–]LastRevision[S] 23 points24 points  (12 children)

Two betas and an omega = half a dad, maybe?

[–]fortifiedoranges 8 points9 points  (4 children)

I thought Stamos played a lady killer.

[–]LastRevision[S] 20 points21 points  (3 children)

A good looking blue pill will get laid but getting laid doesn't make him any less blue pill.

Have mercy!

[–]fortifiedoranges 3 points4 points  (2 children)

I don't remember it that well, I didn't know how he acted I just remember him as "the hot guy" character.

[–]VivaCheeseWhiz 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Haha, I just watched an episode the other night where Jesse's Greek cousin shows up and what's her name and all the rest of the girls develop a huge crush. And then finally it's revealed that he's kind of a cad and he skips town after trying to seduce Jesse's girlfriend/fiancé whatever.

[–]teeelo 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Sorry, which one isthe omega?

[–]LastRevision[S] 11 points12 points  (3 children)

The guy who lives in the basement and makes silly noises.

[–]Dr_Nikk 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wait, how was Stamos' character blue pill?

I haven't see the show in years.

[–]TheGoldenCaulk[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Cut. it. out."

Fuck you Joey, and your awful catchphrase. You were like 40 and you still went by Joey. I'm not even 21 yet and I ditched "Joey"

[–]ProjectShamrock 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't remember it well, but I'd not really consider Bob Sagat's character to be beta based on anything seen in the show. If anything, he may have been more of a MGTOW type of character since but at a minimum he seemed to be the most competent leader of the three men.

[–]justthrowmeout 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And of course there is also the show "my two dads"

[–]teeelo 6 points7 points  (1 child)

It had a grittier, more cynical view of the family, and furthered the alpha-mom / weak father stereotype.

And suddenly their dysfunction became clear. Did they ever reveal their last name? How about that fat guy that was in love with Hal's wife?

[–]2 Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 17 points18 points  (0 children)

She left Hal for the fat guy taking the kids with her, he married a chick with one kid named Walter, got cancer and started cooking Meth in a Winnebago.

[–]Dark_Shroud 4 points5 points  (4 children)

This is my experience as well. I don't watch most of these shows. Modern Family is about it because it manages to make me laugh and there is enough eye candy between the female characters.

Even with Married with Children they disrespect Al but he's still the head of the family and they do all love each other.

I'm disgusting by the amount of shows and even commercials where the husband is a bumbling idiot.

As my own mother commented one time, why would a woman like that stay with an idiot for a husband?

[–]ProjectShamrock 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I'm disgusting by the amount of shows and even commercials where the husband is a bumbling idiot.

I think there's a new trope that has been developed of men as these pudgy, unshaven, slack-jawed, slow talking morons. The times there is something relatively masculine, it's blown out to ridiculous proportions or celebrates being passive.

[–]Dark_Shroud 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Took me a little while to find this clip. Twenty years later and it still cracks me up. You have a problem, spend some time lifting weights & solve it instead of crying about it.

The stuff in Married with Children wouldn't make it into a show today. Between the femonazis and the cry babies.

edit, Prime example in a compilation:

[–][deleted]  (1 child)


    [–]Dark_Shroud 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Yup, this show is a gem. That fact that much of what made Married with Children amazing wouldn't be aired today is a further example of why TV shows are failing.

    [–]Pointless_Endeavors 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Malcolm in the Middle perhaps marked the first post-modern sitcom. It had a grittier, more cynical view of the family, and furthered the alpha-mom / weak father stereotype.

    Not cynical, but realistic view of the modern family. Also, both Hal and Lois were both portrayed as working tirelessly to provide for their low-middleclass family. Remember that they were raising four very troublesome kids. Often the reason the the role of the punish-er fell to Lois is because Hal loved his boys too much and hated to see them hurt or sad. In every other way, he was a good father. This is well established over it's many seasons.

    Not every instance of "alpha-mom / weak father " is bad or a stereotype. Yes, it is over done in most family comedies, but this is definitely a case were they are very compatible and compliment each others weak points.

    Yup, I love MitM, and hate to see it disparaged as just another family sitcom.

    [–]Baudim 5 points6 points  (3 children)

    Bob's Burgers and Modern Family have great father models, Modern Family even has 4 different ones.

    [–]Dr_Nikk 4 points5 points  (1 child)

    Bob's Burgers most definitely. Bob is a good Dad and his family is reliant on him.

    Phil Dunphy, gets an "eh" from me. He definitely gets played the fool regularly and is trampled on by his wife.

    Jay is probably the most fatherly figure on Modern Family. Also, Gloria is so fine.

    Edit: get to gets

    [–]Pointless_Endeavors 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Not Modern Family. He is literally Beta Bucks. I remember how they were talking about his wife and how she had a wild past but she settled for him and how they portrayed it has him winning.

    [–]gravgp2003 4 points5 points  (1 child)

    Home Improvement was great. Tim Allen reminded me of my step father so much. I was growing up in a single parent household and I would have been a complete degenerate without him stepping in.

    Boys need men to show them how to be men. I thought that Home Improvement showed the father figure as a little more manlier than in real life, but looking back on it, it really didn't. That show was extremely accurate and it taught me how to relate to my step father better by watching Tim. Especially when he would talk with Wilson. See, Tim had to be the man around everyone because of his show and his head of household. But (just like TRP), needed one of his friends to talk him through his issues. Great show man and good fucking call on it. Between thinking about this now and Pizza Hut giving away Personal Pan Pizzas, I'm in nostalgia heaven.

    [–]the_number_2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Home Improvement was such a great show because it really showed the characters aging and changing and how that affected the interactions between them.

    The biggest thing I gained from that show was respect. As a young boy, your father is your best friend, and you want to do what he does. But when you grow up, your interests may grow apart, but the kids always respected their father and he them.

    [–]mzackler 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Have you seen the Middle? I'll admit I haven't seen every episode but the dad is portrayed positively.

    [–]14io8 1 point2 points  (5 children)

    It goes way back. Darren from Bewitched is the same.

    [–]mattomondo 17 points18 points  (4 children)

    The interesting thing about Bewitched's premise, though, is that a witch (Samantha) had seemingly unlimited powers but willingly sacrificed them to live a "normal" life of submitting to her husband and caring for her family. She could have used her powers to surround herself with infinite riches and comfort and never work a day in her life, yet she valued being a housewife. Only occasionally would she use witchcraft to cut corners in her chores.

    Furthermore, her mother, Endora, was the opposite of her. Endora spent her time traveling and using her powers unscrupulously. A great deal of the show's crazy situations come from Endora's behavior. Perhaps Samantha's desire to be normal stemmed from her rejection of her mother's excessive lifestyle. Endora was probably a feminist for her time.

    Overall I think this show had a pretty healthy message- that perhaps the best way for woman to live is to focus her power toward supporting and loving her family. Reining in one's natural drives and living in moderation yields the best outcome.

    It's funny to think how if this show was remade today, the underlying messages of moderation and self-control would certainly not be present. Samantha would never submit to a husband's headship. She would probably be a Sex and the City type girl and would use her powers to attract men and disguise the fact that she is dating multiple at once. And she would constantly make new purses and shoes materialize out of thin air.

    [–]14io8 6 points7 points  (3 children)

    She never sunmitted to her husband.

    The whole premise of the show is that she is the all powerful one who is only hiding her power becaue of social norms. And Darren is a fool who thinks he is in charge that is easily manipulated even without witchcraft.

    [–]SILENTSAM69 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    No, she did submit to him quite often. The show did have to work with the fact that her character had the power, but she did always want the happy family life with her husband.

    There is nothing wrong with the idea of the woman manipulating a bit to get her way. That is how women use to get their way. Not by demands and power plays, but through subtle suggestions and steering the situation.

    I think mattomondo has the right idea with this one.

    [–]mattomondo 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    But didn't she choose to marry him? By doing so she voluntarily entered the culture with those social norms.

    It's definitely possible that she was more rebellious than I remember, as it's been a while since I've seen the show. But the fact that social norms often kept her from acting out is pretty interesting in itself.

    [–]14io8 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Same way women marry beta's all the time.

    There is a massive difference between respecting your husband, and being seen to respect your husband.

    [–]anonlymouse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Perhaps the first of the weak fathers was Everybody Loves Raymond, which started in 1996.

    I'd say Tim in Home Improvement.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Thinking about this now I thought that the father in "The Middle" was pretty good, the mom would always be panicking about something and he was always calm, reasonable and while running into initial problems usually got the job done.

    [–]SILENTSAM69 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    Would Breaking Bad be a strong male role model. lol

    It just popped in my head after thinking Malcolm in the Middle.

    [–]ProjectShamrock 6 points7 points  (2 children)

    Would Breaking Bad be a strong male role model. lol

    Actually in a way yes. It really is a story about how a beta man gets dealt with a final straw in life and decides to try to take care of his family, which ultimately leads him down sort of a red pill like road. However, Walt lets his ego take control of his life, which leads to his downfall. He also never gets involved with women other than his wife, which reduces some of the "red pill" nature of the topic but at the same time is refreshing from a TV standpoint because he didn't need a love interest. His "love" was for his fame as a meth cook and all the money he made.

    [–]SILENTSAM69 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I am not sure about The Walking Dead. I guess at least our doors show a world were that social justice warrior stuff really doesn't work.

    He is doing it all for his family. Well, son, right now at least. He is also the alpha of his group.

    Then again I know a vegetarian feminist who agrees the world would have to go back to men being in charge civilization ends. She at least was able to admit equality is a luxury only thanks to civilization.

    [–]ProjectShamrock 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I am not sure about The Walking Dead. I guess at least our doors show a world were that social justice warrior stuff really doesn't work.

    That genre is definitely an example in my book. Anything where the purpose is survival is generally "redpill" to a degree, although you could make an argument about a movie like the Alien series except that you have a strong female lead who basically acts in masculine ways.

    Then again I know a vegetarian feminist who agrees the world would have to go back to men being in charge civilization ends. She at least was able to admit equality is a luxury only thanks to civilization.

    I believe it only takes two people to make a civilization, and that it's what we make of it. My long-term prediction is that we'll stop equating recognition of differences as a form of bigotry at some point, and humans will be better off. Men and women have different hormones and have evolved to be different so it makes sense for society to deal with those differences and make the best of the strengths and help reduce the weaknesses of each rather than pretending they don't exist. However, it will probably take a generation or two more before the ghost of the phrase "separate but equal" or whatever the women's rights version of it is becomes as forgotten as "Tippecanoe and Tyler Too".

    [–]1Rumble_in_the_Jungle 9 points10 points  (3 children)

    I'm sure there are a whole range of statistics somewhere that show just how well adjusted children raised by single mothers are.

    They really aren't though. (with link to article)

    [–]jcslzr 21 points22 points  (2 children)

    I guess /u/AnotherLostCause forgot the /sarcasm tags

    [–]AnotherLostCause 12 points13 points  (0 children)

    Yes, but it worked out for the best because I was referring to a completely different sent of stats. James H Knustler had a Zerohedge article that is relevant to the roll of men recently.

    I don't think the "progressives" understand what things will be like when the jack in the box pops out.

    [–]1Rumble_in_the_Jungle 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    Wow yeah. All I can say is I had a long day.

    [–]17 Endorsed ContributorHumanSockPuppet 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Indeed. And the purpose of things like TRP and MGTOW is to show how truly unnecessary we are by withdrawing our principal investments in society, and then watching (with popcorn) as society collapses under women's simultaneous unwillingness to contribute to society and their sense of entitlement to what few scraps remain from the tithes of generations past.

    There's a certain catharsis in the fatalism which follows a red pill awakening. It's like watching society binge drink itself into ruin, comfortably intoxicated on its own lies.

    [–]Nynx12 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Perhaps, but I seem to notice a lot of movies in particular with the theme of "father not there for his kids because he works too much". This is problematic and it disregards the father's efforts to provide for his family, but I don't think it says the father is unnecessary altogether.

    [–]yummyluckycharms 20 points21 points  (1 child)

    Fantastic - and I think you quite succinctly illustrated how the Homer character is viewed mirrors society views on fatherhood, and how that view as degraded over the length of the show. You would think that people would make a university course about it or perhaps connect two and two together next time people wonder why men are opting out of marriage.

    Society reaps what is sows

    [–]WhereBluebirdsFly 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Society reaps what is sows

    Made me think of "Wake Up" by RATM

    [–]bobbybluepill 35 points36 points  (4 children)

    Yo... This was a fucking awesome write-up! I remember watching the very first Simpsons episode as it aired as well. As I grew older, I stopped watching cartoons, but I did catch this episode time and time again during the Christmas season for several years.

    Recently, I watched the Family Guy and Simpsons crossover episode. It's nothing like when the series first started. That's for sure.

    In any case, I've need really looked back and analysed the first episode in the way that you have. You're 100% right in everything you stated and I've a newfound respect for Matt Groening's original vision for his cartoon.

    This was also very depressing to read. When you look at some of the shows I grew up on (The Simpsons and Married With Children come immediately to mind), it's sad that society saw the emasculation of males and figuratively put these truths in front of us under the guise of comedy. Yet, here I am, having seen this progression take place, 25 years later, completely distrustful of women and accepting of the possibility that I may never have the nuclear family that I grew up in for myself.

    [–]AnotherLostCause 23 points24 points  (3 children)

    MWC never offended me the way other shows did because they gored everyone's ox. Sure Al was a loser but Peg and Kelly were stupid worthless sluts and Bud was BP loser desperate for some gash. Marcie was a typically hypocritical feminist airhead. It had some balance.

    [–]Anderfail 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    Eh Bud got with some pretty hot women on the show. He was a guy who literally did not give a fuck about how he was perceived, had no shame, and tried everything. His actions were actually quite alpha even if he failed a lot.

    [–]bobbybluepill 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    Oh yeah, I completely agree with you. I'm just saying that it's sad that writers understood exactly where American society was headed and figuratively illustrated it for the entire country to see.

    We laughed at it. And it all came true.

    [–]MalcolmDrake 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Remembering the show, even Marcy chose the alpha when it came down to it.

    [–]Sirinon 13 points14 points  (0 children)

    Fun fact, In the original draft Krusty the Clown was supposed to turn out to be homer.

    The original idea behind Krusty the Clown was that he was Homer in disguise, but Homer still couldn’t get any respect from his son, who worshipped Krusty. If you look at Krusty, it’s just Homer with extended hair and a tuft on his head. - Matt Groening.

    [–]Gnometard 11 points12 points  (0 children)

    As a lifelong fan (which gets harder to explain every season), you have changed the entire way I view this series. Kudos bro, amazing.

    [–]FemtoG 13 points14 points  (2 children)

    Reminds me of the episode where Homer kills himself working to afford Lisa her pony.

    Also Aunt Patty and Selma are god-tier characters

    [–]LastRevision[S] 11 points12 points  (1 child)

    "Reminds me of the episode where Homer kills himself working to afford Lisa her pony."

    From wikipedia:

    "In this episode, Homer goes drinking at Moe's Tavern instead of buying a new reed for Lisa's saxophone, resulting in her flopping at the school talent show."

    Notice in this episode Homer buys Lisa the pony to make up for his ineptitude as a father where as in the first season Homer's failing is in not providing an idyllic homelife despite his initial effort. "Lisa's Pony" is only Season 3. Crazy how quickly things change.

    [–]-Viking- 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Naturally, they wanted to have a successful show with more than the theme of just "no one appreciates dad".

    [–]2 Endorsed ContributorFLFTW16 16 points17 points  (1 child)

    Wow this is a spot on analysis, I hope you contribute more in the future.

    Last father's day there was a "ban father's day" campaign bandwagon by feminazis. Their hatred of men/fathers spewed into every corner of the internet. Rather than denouncing their campaign, I posted a documentary on my FB called The Century of Fatherhood, a 3 part BBC documentary about the role of fathers for the last 100 years. Link to excerpt. Not a single like or comment on father's day. I didn't see anyone celebrating their father with tributes or posts the way they did on mother's day.

    You know only a tiny fraction (less than 0.01%) of Muslims are terrorists, but huge percentages of Muslims harbor sympathetic beliefs about those who commit terrorism. The same can be attributed to women, I think. Only a tiny fraction are radical feminists that hate men, but a huge percentage of women harbor sympathies that make them stay silent when feminazis are spewing their misandry.

    For those curious to watch the 3-part BBC doc, it is currently unavailable and I wasn't able to locate it on youtube. It might be available on torrent sites. I highly recommend watching all 3+ hours.

    [–]dhump 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    Shit like that is beyond terrible. My g/f, being raised absent her father (step-father adopted her), has expressed a huge appreciation for how important a father is for not just any child, but girls inparticular.

    Thank God for RP women.

    [–]golimo 7 points8 points  (2 children)

    I DVR'd the recent marathon (I'm about the same age as the show). I was struck by how the first 2 seasons are basically about a failing marriage. But the way they get in fights is interesting: Homer's "wrongdoings" are either based on drunken shenanigans or just his general "I don't understand women" motif. On the other hand, Marge quickly falls in love with some guy she meets at the bowling alley. And her falling in love is even blamed on Homer!

    [–]LastRevision[S] 25 points26 points  (1 child)

    "I was struck by how the first 2 seasons are basically about a failing marriage."

    I disagree. I think the show is about a marriage, the way marriage used to be. Where divorce is an honest-to-god last resort. It isn't always pretty, it isn't always fun, but it always is. It's a contract, it's an obligation. You stfu and make it work for the kids. By today's standards this is a "failing marriage," by 1989's standard it's just a marriage.

    [–]wont_tell_i_refuse 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    I think this is a great comment, it's just so fucking sad.

    [–]TFCNU 15 points16 points  (0 children)

    Homer was a lot different in season 1. He was your classic beat down beta provider. In it's own way, The Simpsons were revealing some TRP truth about how miserable a life being a beta can be. A lot of season 1 is about Homer trying to have the perfect 2.5 kids, white picket fence family and reality getting in the way. The Simpsons were dispensing some truth back then about how it's impossible for the average joe to have that romanticized version of the American family.

    [–]1FrogTrainer 6 points7 points  (1 child)

    Never realized how much Episode 1 had in common with National Lampoons Xmas vacation

    [–]Ojisan1 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    I knew there was good reason why I slowly lost interest in this show over the years, until finally giving up on watching it sometime in the 2000s decade. You have laid it all out very clearly for all to see.

    Well done, OP! A great read.

    [–]Ulquiorra_Schiffer 6 points7 points  (10 children)

    This is what you're describing happens to him, and it's a very common trope in television and anime, and I believe impossible to avoid in shows that are long running, as you run out of ideas otherwise.

    [–]LastRevision[S] 5 points6 points  (9 children)

    Interesting how the trope is named after Flanders and not Homer due to his becoming embarrassingly religious as the show trucks on. I want to say this is at least partially due to the American liberal's growing intolerance hatred of Christianity maybe in addition to typical sitcom tropes.

    [–]ProjectShamrock 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    I want to say this is at least partially due to the American liberal's growing intolerance hatred of Christianity maybe in addition to typical sitcom tropes.

    To be fair, as someone who grew up in a strict Christian family and blame it for a lot of the blue pill upbringing I have, there's a lot of anger towards Christianity from people who were hurt by it. However, like anything, most people eventually move on past that anger. I don't really care either way about Christianity anymore except when it's used to do things that interfere with my life.

    [–]Ulquiorra_Schiffer 0 points1 point  (6 children)

    He did become the stereotype uber religious person who beats his kids for being sinful.

    I feel it is named for him as homer is a gradual change. Flanders changes quickly in between appearances in comparison to homer.

    [–]LastRevision[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children)

    No way he beats his kids. Example?

    [–]Ulquiorra_Schiffer 0 points1 point  (4 children)

    I don't have a specific example of that, I was using that as part of the stereotype Extreme Religious Nut, when he was just moderately religious in the beginning.

    He does hit them with the belt though. I don't consider that beating them, it's about as bad as a spanking.

    [–]cbarrett1989 2 points3 points  (3 children)

    I was hit with a belt when i was younger. I dont know what nerf belt you got smacked with when you were younger but I would have welts when my dad was done. Belts are worse than spanking by a wide margin. I never did whatever the fuck got me the belt again though, it's a leather wrapped, one shot, deterrant.

    [–]Ulquiorra_Schiffer -1 points0 points  (2 children)

    No. They're not the exact same thing. But they serve the same purpose.

    It is as bad as, morally, as a spanking, in my opinion.

    Beating is shit like Cigarette burns, throwing them into shit, hitting them for tiny shit like a spoon being in the sink, and going excessive with the belt/spanking. That's beating your kids.

    [–]anonlymouse 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I think you've got a peculiar understanding of the word 'beat'.

    [–]1oldredder 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Maybe it's intolerance to those who are horrible versions of Christians. When I interacted (I'm atheist) with real, true Christians I got along fine with them & they did with me even knowing I'm an atheist.

    The assholes posing as Christians (majority) are another story entirely. Same with Mormons, Jews & Muslims I've met face to face: all have been decent people completely fine with me being an atheist & are very friendly to me. Yet somehow a majority of Mormons, Jews and Muslims come off as extreme, over the top, zealous people you couldn't live around.

    Maybe it's just that a lot of hate towards each group came from other religious groups & since I'm atheist they know I don't play for the "other" team - I play for no team - and if we treat each other respectfully there is zero problem and they know it.

    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (4 children)

    The shit on TV is only getting worse every passing day. I'm not sure how the next generation kids are going to look up to the men in their families. I read somewhere that a man got a cute storybook on his birthday from his young kids, the protagonist being a dumb and lazy lion.

    [–]yeahweewee 4 points5 points  (3 children)

    ironically that Male lions are by far the most alpha pack animal of all time

    [–]Ulquiorra_Schiffer 4 points5 points  (2 children)

    I don't know. Silverback Gorilla, from what I know of it, is a pretty big contender with the Lion that leads his Pride/Harem.

    [–]yeahweewee 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Lion has an exclusive Harem with no other males and all he does is lay around and have sex

    [–]Ulquiorra_Schiffer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    And protect against Hyenas, and rival males.

    I don't know too much about the habits of Gorillas though.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    The "idiot dad" trope isn't even internally consistent on The Simpsons and most other shows because the dad is usually still the bread-winner. He's a good enough provider that his family has a middle class house and cars and shit.

    [–]LastRevision[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    The Simpsons lose all touch with reality after Season 2 anyway.

    [–]brain_candy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Isn't that when Conan O'Brien stepped in and pushed for the absurd storylines?

    [–]17 Endorsed ContributorHumanSockPuppet 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Great breakdown of the episode.

    Although if you need evidence of Red Pill truth in this episode, you need not look any further than Lisa's monologue to her aunt when her aunt starts bad-mouthing her father:

    I wish you wouldn't because, aside from the fact that he has the same frailties as all human beings, he's the only father I have. Therefore, he is my model of manhood, and my estimation of him will govern the prospects of my adult relationships. So I hope you bear in mind that any knock at him is a knock at me, and I am far too young to defend myself against such onslaughts.

    [–]LastRevision[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Remember, the theme is that Homer's struggles are invisible to his family and therefore unappreciated. Notice Lisa doesn't defend her father even once here- she essentially is saying, "yes, he sucks but stfu about it." Only Homer's failings are acknowledged by his family.

    [–]1oldredder 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    This times a billion.

    The newer Simpsons is so much easier to laugh at, even with references to various cultural fixations of various eras.

    The older one has "jokes" but it digs at your soul and makes you think precisely because of what you noticed. It's a darker, angrier Simpsons, truer to real life than people wish was visible. And it was made for a generation that wasn't brainwashed yet from the truth. I didn't watch it when it first came out. I suppose I could have but I was watching other things then. 1989 I was 13. Probably couldn't have fully sunk in for me anyhow but I try to grasp things beyond me so that later it can fall into place.

    [–]1johnnight 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Message still there in 1995.

    [–]BibulousCinephile 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Whenever I watch this, I'm always reminded of the similarities between this episode and National Lampoons Christmas Vacation.

    [–]GunsGermsAndSteel 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    I can totally relate to this. Well written.

    I am a father and a husband. I work hard to provide for my family and I come home exhausted and sore every night. There are a million other things I could be doing, but instead I do this. I don't feel like I deserve special recognition for that, but I certainly don't deserve to live in a society that mocks my efforts and treats me like a second-class parent.

    Fortunately my wife and daughters treat me with gratitude and respect.

    [–]sigma_red 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    man reading everything here is just depressing.

    [–]frzndesserts 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    it is ashame that us fathers have had to be thought of this way in this misandric culture- i refused that role! my wife divorced me because i would not succumb to her and her family's verbal and emotional abuse and degredation to the "dad is a useless idiot"- i am not a utilty! nor am i a disposable retard! as the father- i am the leader! i am the patriarch! i am the protector! i am the provider! i am the the head of the household! just ask my ex wife who now enjoys seeing our children everyother weekend and one night a week for dinner!

    [–]robot-b 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Simpsons has lots of great lessons

    Homer's childhood:

    [–]voomer53 1 point2 points  (3 children)

    How about Darren the husband in Bewitched played by Dick York? He was always clueless while Elizabeth Montgomery as Samantha the witch was of course the all-knowing housewife....

    [–]anonlymouse 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    His cluelessness in Bewitched was so that he could stay ignorant of Samantha being a witch, and the show could continue as it had started.

    Otherwise they would have had to do it like Smallville where supporting characters constantly got KOed so that Clark's secret wouldn't be revealed.

    It's a plot device to account for the supernatural in an apparently mundane world.

    [–]1oldredder 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Ya, also, Clark was incredibly bluepill. And with no serious excuse: both his human father and kryptonian father each had their (Smallville) redpill dialed right up. Respectful but zero bullshit.

    [–]anonlymouse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    He felt guilty for the death of Lana's parents and was terrified of her finding that out about him. Plus Lana's necklace made him look like a complete twat every time she got close to him. You've got a couple excuses there.

    [–]nuc22 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Someone give this man a gold.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    [–]QOTstoneage 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    This analysis of Homer allowed me to empathize with the short-comings of my own father. Being young, I've never really thought about what it would be like to walk a day in his shoes. Instead of being judemental and disrespectful, we should thank our dads for the good work they've done.

    As young men, it's our responsibility.

    [–]cbarrett1989 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I agree 100% with the synopsis of the simpsons as a whole from the early days but.... Heres my one issue though which is more of a confirmation of this theory. I work at a nuclear power plant. The closest observable real world position to what Homer does would be a reactor room operations tech or possibly even a supervisor. Those jobs are not filled by idiots, or even slightly negligent people.

    I dont know when Homer shifted towards being the moron of the family considering he has a very highly technical job. The whole point of the series as I understood it was the same as OP's interpretation.

    [–]Homosubi 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Good analysis of that episode.

    I just wanted to note that in a commentary that I listened to, one of the creators said that when God was pictured he has five fingers, because God is real while the Simpsons are fictional.

    With how liberal the show has become, I couldn't imagine him saying that today.

    [–][deleted]  (3 children)


      [–]barzerobar 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      It's not so funny anymore, honestly.

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)


        [–]barzerobar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I do too. Still do, in fact. I just see too much of myself in it post RP.

        [–]Wheatspin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Sounds like this episode is an homage to National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. I like the the theme of the simpson's episode better, though

        [–]sir_wankalot_here 0 points1 point  (7 children)

        How come no one watches good cartoons like American Dad ? Roger the alien who bats both ways is hilarious.

        [–]db1000c 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        American Dad is very funny. But Stan Smith is just one massive parody of men. When he is 'alpha' he's portrayed negatively for it and his kids despise him for it. When he succumbs to all their pressures he is then portrayed as a good guy.

        [–]fortifiedoranges 1 point2 points  (4 children)

        The alien is the worst character but it's a million times better than Family Guy.

        [–]sir_wankalot_here 1 point2 points  (3 children)

        He is the best character. Dark Triad as shit. He knows how to get people's hamsters spinning so he can get what he wants. Through him the writers are mocking a lot of societies values.

        [–]1oldredder 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Yup. Like Futurama & Bender. Bender's a robot but really... aside from being a super-alcoholic and constant-thief he's 100% redpill if put in human-form.

        [–]fortifiedoranges 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        I will have to re-watch it.

        [–]sir_wankalot_here 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        It depends on how you look at things. For example with the Simpons, OP did not mention Marge's two sisters. They are post wall, trying to destroy Marges relationship with Homer because they are jealous, one of them wants to have a baby really bad, in a couple of episodes one of them gets screwed over by a gigilo.

        In the episode where they try and shut down the town's brothel, it is the women who start pestering their husbands to shut it down. The husbands agree, and then the Madam of the brothel confronts the men.

        OP is correct in the way he describes the bigger story, but inside the bigger story there are always a series of smaller stories.

        [–]1oldredder 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I swear if I ever put a picture up at the office (I never have, ever) it will be Ricky Spanish.

        [–]RPDBF -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

        The same can prob be said about family guy

        [–]yeahweewee 6 points7 points  (3 children)

        not really both Peter and Lois are depicted as awful parents who hate their kids and its more of a satire on how most american parents really feel about their brats

        [–]RPDBF 1 point2 points  (2 children)

        I didn't see that in the first couple seasons, what about the petoria episode where he cedes from the US just to get his family a pool?

        [–]yeahweewee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        exactly... just as people get houses cars dogs, its often not for anyone

        and meg and chris are the butt of atleast one insulting joke per episode from their parents

        [–]jhsm -5 points-4 points  (1 child)


        Wow I didn't realize until right now how much tougher men used to be.

        [–]1oldredder 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        WTF. Obviously some people don't get that era of sarcasm either. I upvoted you.

        [–]The_Psychopath -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

        They made homer a retard because that was funniest.

        A.K.A. The curtains were fucking blue!