all 122 comments

[–]1exit_sandman 62 points63 points  (9 children)

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You did it wrong, just ask ole' Ben Franklin.

People who owe you something are actually more likely to resent you for it than being grateful. But if you want people to do you favors, just... ask them favors. Due to cognitive dissonance, they will rationalizing them helping you by assuming that you're a better friend to them than you actually are (otherwise they wouldn't support you in the first place).

Of course don't overdo it and don't make it too one-sided (because that way, people may realize they're taken advantage of), but don't assume that handing out favors left and right will do you much good, unless the people in question already are your BFFs.

[–]whatever6 16 points17 points  (6 children)

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Ben franklin effect is why you should never turn anyone down who is offering to do you a favor. Unless for some reason you don't want them to like you more. Also why only suckers do favors for others and expect something in return.

[–][deleted]  (4 children)

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    [–]frequentlywrong 7 points8 points  (3 children)

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    Well there are a couple of things going on in this situation.

    1. White guy from a first world country, visiting a third world country. He has huge social value for that reason alone. He will be respected and valued more. Some people who have not traveled do not realize that. There is a racial hierarchy in the world and rich white Americans are at the top. It's not PC and it may hurt a lot of feelings, but it's the truth. Take it from a non-american.

    2. This is a group dynamic not a person-to-person dynamic. The ben franklin effect is not really applicable. Buying a round for your friends is an alpha thing to do. This is basically a version of that. They all knew his social value is higher than all of them combined. He could of acted like an arrogant ass, they would still respect him. But he showed generosity and they loved him for it. Much like how people love celebrities for even minor displays of generosity and/or friendliness.

    Could he have gotten stabbed or something? Sure. But it would have taken a psychopath. Never a regular person.

    [–]subcover 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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    White American men are respected. White American women, not so much. For all the reasons we discuss here, MGTOW, etc. We can go overseas to get laid, get a wife, etc. American women probably get rejected overseas.

    We're good enough looking, fair minded, easy to get along with, it's easy for us to make friends.

    That "overseas option" we have drives them nuts.

    [–]frequentlywrong 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    American women probably get rejected overseas.

    American women have a very hard time finding someone with an equal social value to them outside the US. Women can never be with a man with a lower social value.

    So the foreign guy must be very successful. But if he is successful and single, he is banging young local hotties. Guys don't give a fuck about the womans social status.

    What is a huge advantage to an American guy, is a huge burden on the American woman.

    [–]chakravanti93 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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    You know, if he had just sold the whole thing doing her a favour by giving her credit collateral this would not have happened.

    It failed because he expected to get credit for her work. That's an unfair exchange with respect to a pair of tickets.

    Any self respecting man in her position would have at least told OP to go fuck himself. Instead, she decided to actually fuck him over because there's no benefit in sustaining a relationship with the kind of jackass who tries to use abstraction of gift value to capitalize on ignorance of social-business capitol.

    This isn't Red Pill, this Isn't Briffault's law. This is Major League corporate culture and it was approptiate for OP to have his ass handed to him regardless of any genders involved.

    [–]1niczar 7 points8 points  (0 children)

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    Due to cognitive dissonance, they will rationalizing them helping you by assuming that you're a better friend to them than you actually are (otherwise they wouldn't support you in the first place).

    Yeah, the good ole' foot in the door technique.

    [–]tmpjb 10 points11 points  (0 children)

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    This is only true when the favor wasn't called for. Like you get someone a donut or something then ask for a favor and bring it up. Reciprosity in relationships is natural so people will want to do you favors if they felt you really help them. He did the right thing, but he assumed that she would be grateful which she wasn't. In my experience, women have an expectation that men should help out and do favors just because she is a woman. This means that if you do the favors you come out even, then she doesn't owe you anything. If you don't then she hates you because she feels cheated. Also she probably hamstered that because it was easy for him to do, the favor didn't count for much. It is important not to just assume they will return a favor, but he didn't know a favor in advance and it was probably easy for him to get the tickets. I do think that gender does matter a bit though.

    [–][deleted] 151 points152 points  (45 children)

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    For this kind of thing to work you have to make it known up front what it is you want in return. this is true for everyone, men and women. Everyone feels cheated when they think they got something for free and then that person starts asking for favors in return at a later date.

    [–]JohnGalt316 69 points70 points  (11 children)

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    if it is a specific favor for a favor, then i would agree with you. you need to outline it beforehand for both men and women.

    however, if you are doing something to build rapport, men and women differ greatly. women expect guys to do favors for them, so any general favor you do doesn't win you points in their eyes. for guys, this behavior isn't common so they appreciate it. the more self-reliant guys will also feel indebted to you.

    [–]subcover 45 points46 points  (8 children)

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    And even among women, there's more deal-making than doing favors in an open way. Look at a bunch of women when it comes time to settle a restaurant check. They will work on it for 10 minutes to make sure each person is paying her full fair share. Whereas a guy would slap his credit card on the table and say to others "you get the next one OK?"

    So a woman doesn't really know what to do with a guy's favors. Women don't do such favors, so this guy is just a sucker, not even as smart as other women. (and women don't think much of other women.). She just mounts the pedestal and continues on without a care in the world.

    [–]LukeMooney 18 points19 points  (7 children)

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    haahHAAHaHAhaaaa this is so true, they just sit there so retarded. The other day was out with a friend a couple girls he knows and their males friends. Whilst the two girls were at the bar, because the queue was so big, I instructed them to get two extra beers for me and my friend. I took the beers and wandered off, didn't even think about paying them, (I'd bought a round just before, which included those two girls). Anyway, they came back, and they tell me "We split the cost of your drinks" I was like "ok...cool" They didn't really expect me to give them money, they just felt it necessary to tell me they'd split the cost. Women.

    [–]through_a_ways 18 points19 points  (6 children)

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    They didn't really expect me to give them money, they just felt it necessary to tell me they'd split the cost.

    I think they were hoping you'd offer to pay upon hearing them say they'd split it.

    [–]1rife_omeqa 7 points8 points  (1 child)

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    They wouldn't have said it if they didn't want him to pay.

    They mentioned it to him because that's what they've done in the past and the guys jumped at the chance to pay. For those two women, the mere mention of money is tantamount to asking for payment straight up. They've been taught by pandering beta's that all you have to do to get the guy to pay is mention money offhandedly and wait for them to cough up.

    [–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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    The only correct response to a woman offering to split the bill is to split the bill. Any other response will put you in beta provider category.

    One of two things will happen...

    1) She will admit she doesn't have the money on hand in which case you know she's a manipulative bitch, just pay the bill and next her ass.

    2) She will actually pony up her part of the bill and you'll get a little resentment/respect for not being a beta pushover.

    [–]LukeMooney 6 points7 points  (3 children)

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    aAHAHahAhaaaa maybe actually!!! Although I think they realised I'd already bought them drinks so this was actually fair. When they were telling me, it was like their brans were malfunctioning. I just carried on, my state was so high that night, there was no stopping me.

    [–]boydeer 9 points10 points  (1 child)

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    Although I think they realised I'd already bought them drinks so this was actually fair.

    they may have realized it was fair, but they were still trying to get your money.

    [–]rebuildingMyself 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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    Don't forget Briffault's Law. That favor is in the past and doesn't exist anymore.

    [–]subcover 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    Maybe they were trying to show that they weren't beta providing for the other girl. Yeah I can believe it. When the man is in charge, women will bring their problems and issues to him for judgment.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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      [–]2asd1100 56 points57 points  (21 children)

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      Actually no, just women are under the impression that men do random acts of kindness.

      Other men understand the implied "you owe me one" and it's not really a question of owing but rather gratefulness and having tighter relationship.

      [–]nessfalco 55 points56 points  (8 children)

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      Exactly. This became a huge debacle when a co-worker asked me to pick her up when her car broke down and I said "sure, if you get me lunch."

      She laughed and said, "no, seriously pick me up."

      I laughed and said, "noooope," hanging up on her.

      She calls our supervisor expecting him to be furious with me and he just tells her that lunch is cheaper than a cab and i would be going out of my way to help her so it's only fair that she give something in return. She was beyond irritated upon hearing this.

      Edit:

      Just to add, I have never and would never ask someone to do something for me without offering something in return. Time is valuable, and even if the other person doesn't actually want something in return, they always appreciate knowing their time, and thus they, are respected.

      [–]1xwm 8 points9 points  (0 children)

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      I have never and would never ask someone to do something for me without offering something in return.

      I honestly wouldn't even think about it. I'd just get the ride to work, and when lunchtime came I would say to them, "Where do you want lunch?"

      Or some other equivalent thing

      [–]harkrank 2 points3 points  (6 children)

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      This is a fucking favorite of mine and I want all of the red pill to learn the proper response to this shit test / bitch test. When she said "no, seriously pick me up" you shouldn't have laughed or hung up on her. You should have said "Sure I'll be there as soon as I can". And then not fucking come and pick her up. I'm almost never spiteful when it comes to women, but this one I will do at every opportunity. Did it two weeks ago and stranded like four girls. No hard feelings either. They know they can't say anything or act mad. If they even bring it up just act like she's crazy and you never had the conversation. In worst case say you forgot about it.

      Oh, and if she start's calling you after a while asking where you are, say you're on your way and you'll be right there. Keep doing this until she gives up.

      [–]subcover 1 point2 points  (2 children)

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      So is this the logic?

      "No, seriously pick me up" means she expects to command you and disrespect you, so you switch smoothly to fuck-you mode.

      I am like that when someone asks me an inappropriate question. "So how much money do you make?" I answer whatever I want her to think, convincingly, because it's not a polite question to ask in my opinion. I have to do it smoothly without a clue to her, because otherwise the lie would not work and instead her question would have worked to extract that I was at least uncomfortable talking about it.

      (Remember, the Bible says you shall not bear false witness. Indeed it would suck to testify falsely against someone! But the Bible, at least the OT, doesn't say not to lie. Jesus Christ does say that in the NT, but that's a higher standard than I have been able to uphold in my life.)

      But I am not using that strategy in many other situations. Do I understand your idea correctly?

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      I believe that's the direction that harkrank was going. In all honesty, if your goal is to get some tingles from the chica, it is the best answer. The "Noooope," answer is good, but it directly turns down the girl. It's a dead end with a finite payoff. The "fake retrieval" means that you just made hours of chica's day revolve around you and she'll know it. Like everything in TRP, take what you can live with, not necessarily what is the perfect answer. For some people, it's very difficult to be that disrespectful to a person. It can be rationalized by the receiver, and you'll rationalize it too, in the end, but play the best with the hand you're given.

      Btw, you're hamstering (rationalizing) really hard in your parenthetical paragraph. I'd recommend you read some of Corrie ten Boom's stuff as it has some good lessons on lying w.r.t. Christianity. There's a lot to be said about hyperbolic truthiness and a lot to be said about how the ends and means of a situation harmonize. Don't feel like you need to rationalize though! Integrity is about finding and consuming the answers right for you.

      [–]harkrank 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      You're getting me exactly right.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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      Fuck that, there's nothing I hate more than passive-aggressive bullshit like this. If you did something even similar to this on me, I would lose all trust in you. Man up and tell it like it is, "No I won't give you a ride."

      [–]harkrank 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      It's not passive-aggressive at all, because you're not investing yourself in the situation. You're not seeking to gain anything or influence anyone. I'd gladly do the same thing to you if you were being disrespectful in the same way as the girl was in the comment and I don't care if people like this trust me or not. I fucking want them to lose trust in me. Not only won't I have to be bothered by their bullshit again. If I get people like this to dislike me it's an advantage in meeting new people. One thing I've learned is that almost every new person you meet is eager to show their true nature as soon as they can, even if it's just hints. If assholes and bitches dislike me and shows it, then the new person won't have to doubt if I'm like them or not. If you treat people you meet like they deserve to be treated then you won't have a hard time getting to meet good friends.

      Yes, I do believe you owe every person you get to know to be reasonably honest and reliable. That goes out the window instantly once they get disrespectful. And yes, this shit/bitch test response requires that you have some kind of frame or you're gonna suffer. Also you're saying "man up" and tell it like it is when nessfaico was doing exactly that. He said he'd do it in exchange for lunch, which is a good offer. Basically he said "I don't want to be a beta bitch, but I'll help you and wont try to abuse this situation, I'll let you get out of owing me easily." He made the situation easy for her and she responded like a bitch. In this situation all bets are off. Confusion is a great response to disrespect and hostility.

      [–]1rife_omeqa 31 points32 points  (10 children)

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      I can't upvote this enough.

      I think a lot of the other posters in here have little or no experience with situations akin to the OP.

      Pedestalization of women by every beta male they come into contact with on a daily basis should not be underestimated.

      I've had straight up conversations with attractive sales attendants who could not figure out why all the men they served were "really nice" and most of the women were "bitchy". I know a nurse who doesn't understand why she can never get other female nurses to swap graveyard shifts with her but has never had a problem swapping with either of the two male nurses in her ward (she's petite with DD's).

      OP, I bet if you had told her straight up what you expected in return for the tickets she'd have downplayed it as a joke and ignored it. I bet if you went back to her now and told her what you'd have expected she'd have pinned the blame back on you without missing a beat. "I didn't know favors came with strings!" "I would never have asked for the tickets if I thought you wanted to use them to manipulate me!"

      I've seen it dozens of times.

      It surprises me to see that many of the popular comments in here promote the notion that OP should treat this women rationally. I've yet to see any evidence offered here or IRL that shows women to be rational creatures. All women have hamsters.

      [–]subcover 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      Indeed, and women know what other women are like. That's why they don't cooperate very much. They are always covering their asses with other women.

      Men have an advantage here. You can say no with a masculine frame, and it comes across as aloof and unreachable, not bitchy. Just do it. Be just as petty and calculating as women with these women, but do it with frame.

      [–]zephyrprime 2 points3 points  (3 children)

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      It's overly broad to say women are irrational. It's more accurate to say that women are more self serving than men in socio-economic relations.

      [–]1xwm 7 points8 points  (2 children)

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      But women are irrational. Emotions > logic.

      [–]1rife_omeqa 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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      It depends on how one defines 'rational'. A debate for another time and place.

      Both you and zephyrprime aren't wrong.

      The fact remains. Men will tend to handle such a scenario differently to women and men who don't understand this are the ones that lose. The women never lose because the worst case scenario for them is an equal split. Quid pro quo. Whereas the worst case scenario for men is that they incur 100% of the cost for 0% of the gains.

      Take splitting a cheque after a date as an example. Some couples will split and some won't. Of those that split both parties would either pay 50% of the total bill or cover their own charges. Of those that do not split, men pay in every instance. Thus men and women sometimes come out equal, women sometimes win, men sometimes lose but men never win.

      [–]2asd1100 -5 points-4 points  (4 children)

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      She is rational, just that her experience of reality is different, you could blame her solipsism but we all have it(gorgeous chick are bitchy) or you could blame the men for being thirsty, but as red pillers we should understand that it's not a issue of morality but rather a consequences of human interactions.

      [–]1rife_omeqa 6 points7 points  (3 children)

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      Semantics.

      We are talking about a woman who, according to OP, royally screwed the pooch when dealing with a client and is also unwilling to help a colleague because doing so does not serve her.

      When it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

      OP is not going to make any progress treating people such as her nicely. Being treated nicely is exactly what she's used to and her treatment of OP and OP's client is her default response to it.

      I agree with you that this is not an issue of morality but in fact a consequence of human interaction (read: pedestalization). The analysis of why she is the way she is is not important. The question is how do you deal with it? The answer is "Next!". You avoid her and those like her. You offer them nothing so that they take nothing. You treat them for what they are, which is at best, useless.

      Many of the tenants of TRP are imparted as examples. A popular one that I haven't seen around here for a while is the "Next!" scenario. When you deem a plate/gf/wife as being not worthy of your time/effort you drop them and move onto the next. You repeat until you find those who are worthy of your investment. Those whom you benefit and benefit you. You're looking for mutually beneficial relationships and abandoning the parasitical relationships. You work to create a social circle whom you help, and who help you. Everyone wins. The TRP example of this involves gf/plates/wives but the lesson holds true for everyone in your life. Friends/colleagues/partners/plates/everyone.

      OP's colleague isn't worth the effort. Chalk it up to a lesson learned and Next! her. Find colleagues that are helpful and considerate. Drop the shitty ones.

      [–]2asd1100 -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

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      It depends on whether she want's to fly, maybe that day she wanted to be a chicken. Passing judgement doesn't change her, or makes you better at managing your "irrational" colegue in the future. We need to learn their behavior and work with it. Screaming at the dog or insulting it won't make him stop biting you when you take his food away next time.

      The question is how do you deal with it?

      like with a child, playfully and with a positive tone. Make boring tasks into games with clearly defined rewards at the end. They are not useless if you know how to work with them.

      On the one side you expect to much from them: behaving like men. On the other you expect nothing and relagate 55% of the world population as a uselless mistery.

      The work enviroment is like society, it is not your inner circle and nor should it be unless you are the boss. It has a structural alpha, structural rules in addition to the rules of social dynamics. As an alpha you can not affort to say fold give me better cards, you make the best out of what you have and if a opportunity for a better position opens you jump on it but until then you must extract the most out of the context.

      [–]subcover 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      He's not her boss. He shouldn't have to manage her. He'd be better off documenting her fuckups and trying to get her fired, or at least to cover his own ass in the context of their required work interactions.

      Making her job into child's play is too much trouble. That's for girlfriends, not work colleagues.

      [–]2asd1100 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      That is for all people that are not bros.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      Some men are raised to be unnecessarily nice to women

      [–]absntmindedprofessor 15 points16 points  (0 children)

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      For this kind of thing to work you have to make it known up front what it is you want in return.

      It doesn't matter, see clause 2 of Briffault's law.

      Any agreement where the male provides a current benefit in return for a promise of future association is null and void as soon as the male has provided the benefit

      As soon as you fill your end of the contract, they will find a way to hamster out of whatever they are supposed to do.

      [–]En-Sigma 6 points7 points  (1 child)

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      Don Corleone: Someday, and that day may never come, I'll call on you to do a service for me. But until that day, accept this justice as a gift on my daughter's wedding day.

      [–]subcover 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      Women might fail to do the favor as requested when the favor (a quiet autopsy as I remember) was needed. Women can't handle that level of trust and discretion.

      That's why they are kept out of the business. Can you imagine that life having to deal with women in decision making capacities?

      [–]MarriedRP 13 points14 points  (1 child)

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      It sounds like OP got an extremely cheap lesson on who to trust. Most of us end up losing a savings account, car, house, job or otherwise.

      There are just as many men as women that will take and not give. OP you don't have a gender issue, you have a people issue. You did a solid, you didn't get a return. You are blessed with saving all the time and money never having to wonder if you should advance anything to this mooch for the rest of your life.

      [–]boydeer 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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      some girls offered to take my roommate on "a date" for tickets. he got them tickets, bitches tried to take him to lunch, and he had to push a bunch to get even that.

      you need to be very specific, and they need to perceive future potential gain for them to keep their word.

      [–]Lionstrong 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      You shouldn't have to state this up front. It is common sense that one hand washes the other. You absolutely could call someone out if they are a bitch after you did them a favor. If you want, you could say "You owe me one" and call in that favor whenever you want. This is business 101.

      [–]subcover 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      Not with women. Stop trying to get OP to make the same mistake again hoping for a different result.

      [–]swallowpls 26 points27 points  (1 child)

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      Should have told her your brother/sister/friend/dogwalker wanted the tickets as well and she'll have to do something as a favor for you if she herself wanted them.

      Other than that, Briffault's law was inevitably going to take a corrosive, meaty crap on you for this.

      [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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      He can just tell her that he will see what he can do. Saying yes right away already devalues the exchange. "Can I borrow your X" a yes right away says it's easy for you to give it away. There is no need for RP, it's the same with everyone. Make your act more valuable than it is. "I will see what I can do", "Let me get back to you", after couple of hours or when you have them "I've gotten the tickets, you owe be (big) one".

      What he did comes across as cheap, he breaks all illusion of friendship by expecting something in return and that return is far more valuable than what he gave.

      It's like someone who buys you a coffee and expects you to pick up their third cousin from the airport the day after. The exchange is uneven.

      [–][deleted]  (3 children)

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      [deleted]

        [–]VegasHostTre[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

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        Actually, I just posted that here because I can't make a claim to pay for a chicks tickets and not be trying to bang her. Actually I wasn't even bragging about it she approached me and asked if I had a way to get tickets.

        [–]subcover 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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        You have to learn to say no to a woman. Your instinctive response to a woman should be no, not yes. You can always amend the no to a yes. Not the other way.

        "Do you have a way to get those tickets?" "No, I don't."

        I almost wrote "No, I'm sorry" but then I realized, you never tell a woman you're sorry either. You just tell her no. Just do that, and it establishes your frame of not serving her.

        [–]abcd_z 14 points15 points  (6 children)

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        Here’s something you can expect when dealing with another person: Any concession you make to him or her will quickly lose its value. The value of any material object you buy may go up in value over the years, but the value of services always appears to decline rapidly after you have performed those services. Power Negotiators know that, any time you make a concession to the other side in a negotiation, you should ask for a reciprocal concession right away. The favor you did the other side loses value very quickly. Two hours from now, the value of it will have diminished rapidly.

        Real estate salespeople are very familiar with the principle of the declining value of services. When a seller has a problem getting rid of a property, and the real estate salesperson offers to solve that problem for a 6-percent listing fee, it doesn’t sound as though it’s an enormous amount of money.

        However, the minute the realtor has performed the service by finding the buyer, then suddenly that 6 percent starts to sound like a tremendous amount of money. “Six percent. That’s $12,000!” the seller is saying. “For what? What did they do? All they did was put it in a multiple-listing service.” The realtor did much more than that to market the property and negotiate the contract, but remember the principle. The value of a service always appears to diminish rapidly after you have performed that service.

        I’m sure you’ve experienced that, haven’t you? A person with whom you do a small amount of business has called you. He’s in a state of panic because the supplier from whom they get the bulk of their business has let them down on a shipment. Now their entire assembly line has to shut down tomorrow unless you can work miracles and get a shipment to them first thing in the morning. Sound familiar? So you work all day and through the night, rescheduling shipments all over the place. Against all odds, you’re able to get a shipment there just in time for the assembly line to keep operating. You even show up at their plant and personally supervise the unloading of the shipment, and the buyer loves you for it. He comes down to the dock, where you are triumphantly wiping the dirt off your hands, and says, “I can’t believe you were able to do that for me. That is unbelievable service. You are absolutely incredible. Love you, love you, love you.”

        So, you say, “Happy to do it for you, Joe. That’s the kind of service we can give when we have to. Don’t you think it’s time we looked at my company being your main supplier?”

        He replies, “That does sound good, but I don’t have time to talk about it now because I’ve got to get over to the assembly line and be sure that it’s running smoothly. Come to my office Monday morning at ten o’clock and we’ll go over it. Better yet, come by at noon and I’ll buy you lunch. I really appreciate what you did for me. You are fantastic. Love you, love you, love you.” So all weekend long, you think to yourself “Have I got this one made. Does he owe me.” Monday rolls around, however, and negotiating with him is just as hard as ever. What went wrong? The declining value of services came into play. The value of a service always appears to decline rapidly after you have performed the service.

        If you make a concession during a negotiation, get a reciprocal concession right away. Don’t wait. Don’t be sitting there thinking that because you did them a favor, they owe you and that they will make it up to you later. With all the goodwill in the world, the value of what you did goes down rapidly in their mind.

        -"Secrets of Power Negotiating" by Roger Dawson, Ch. 8

        [–]Lionstrong 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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        So, basically when you do a favor for a client, make sure you get immediate reciprocation on the spot? I don't know how that practically works.

        [–]1bicepsblastingstud 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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        It's not always going to work out like that, and you can't force the issue, but it's something to keep in mind. Get reciprocation soon, don't let it be "a favor" for the indeterminate future.

        [–]abcd_z 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        The easiest way to do this is to tack on a "favor" multiplier to your expenses. "Sure I'll bust my ass to get this done for you, but it'll cost you $X,000 more than we agreed on."

        In the case of the example with the supplier issues, if the person was set on becoming the client's major supplier he should have insisted on getting the contract before fixing the client's problem, possibly on the true grounds that it just wouldn't be worth the effort if he wasn't going to be the client's major supplier.

        [–]football1010 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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        Have you read Secrets of Power Negotiating ? What did you think of it as it relates to other negotiation books ?

        [–]abcd_z 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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        I have. It contains effective strategies to get the best possible outcome for you when negotiating, but: it operates from a win/lose mindset where the other person is your opponent, some of the tactics border on unethical, and many of them operate from bad faith.

        Having said that, it's still a good book to read. I'd recommend supplementing it with "Getting to Yes: How to Negotiate Agreement Without Giving In", which works from a cooperation-based win/win mindset. Between the two of them you should have a solid negotiating base to work from.

        [–]football1010 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        Thank you for your reply. I have already read Getting to Yes. I'll pick up this book as well.

        [–]1 Endorsed Contributorvandaalen 27 points28 points  (3 children)

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        The problem is that you slipped into classic nice guy mindset and tried to manipulate a person into doing something. "I do nice thing X to person y and therefore y will behave nicley towards me, because I expect them to."

        Like /u/foamdust said you need to make yourself clear about what's your side of the deal about.

        [–]2asd1100 16 points17 points  (2 children)

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        She doesn't know that.

        In her mind she got the tickets for being a good colegue and OP was being grateful. Transaction over.

        Now OP asked for her help, which she does because she is a good person, when she does it half heartedly OP just looks like an ungrateful bastard.

        [–]subcover 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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        Yeah, with women you have to enumerate your favors and make things explicit, like they do with each other.

        [–]2asd1100 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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        You could if she gave a shit. I found that asking then compensating is the best way to go.

        [–]theredpillager 9 points10 points  (12 children)

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        I feel you, man. I recently got a new female boss who is way more of a micromanager than my former boss. While I assume she'll be able to get lots of benefit out of me in that she is my superior and she needs my efforts to succeed herself, my main interest in TRP right now is in improving my work situation and relationships. I hope to subtly or even not so subtly use TRP theory to establish boundaries and rules in my work relationship with her in particular and others as necessary.

        [–]Shinob1 3 points4 points  (1 child)

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        I recommend reading 48 laws of power. It'll help with you work relationships and overall female strategy imho.

        [–]theredpillager 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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        Thanks for the reco. Adding it to my to do list.

        [–]2asd1100 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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        Be carefull, as your boss she can flip the board whenever she feels the game is not going as she wanted, and unlike with men win-win cases are not a universal option as their egos count for far more in a decision making process.

        [–]Lionstrong 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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        Can confirm, a female boss will burn down her own department to make sure you know "she's the boss".

        [–]whatever6 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        Read the gervais principle

        [–]I3luee 4 points5 points  (6 children)

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        Be very careful. TRP focuses a lot on game.

        Also around here everyone agrees that you don't shit where you eat. (aka don't mess around at your workplace) Tread carefully since TRP presumes that you must establish yourself as a dominant alpha male -> this might not fall well with your boss. (people take the boss position too seriously and actually want you to respect them and they wanna fear superior to you)

        [–]subcover 9 points10 points  (2 children)

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        Game doesn't have to mean sex. It means proper interactions, for whatever goals.

        Game could help him establish a situation where she gives him more room, because (unlike her female subordinates) she sees this man as a leader and relates to him with the appropriate sex-role.

        I had a female boss once, and it was the easiest boss I had, maybe ever. But she was pretty hard on our female team member, who didn't get the break from her that she was used to by tossing her long blond hair around.

        [–]I3luee -1 points0 points  (1 child)

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        I like what your pointing out, but what I'm trying to say is that not everybody responds well to the same stimuli.

        If he knows how to be tactful and base himself on action -> reaction -> observe if reaction is the desired one. And if he does this in little steps (large jumps are risky) then of course he can go all out.

        [–]theredpillager 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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        I understand what you're saying, but I'm not trying to game my boss. she is still a woman, and still throws shit tests. My goal is to pass those and influence the dynamic of our work relationship where appropriate. There is no denying she's the boss. That doesn't mean I have to let her walk all over me or blindly accept everything she throws at me. Thanks all the same.

        [–]I3luee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        Marvelous! Sorry for the misunderstanding then.

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        It focuses a lot on game because that is what creates appeal for newcomers. True embodiment of redpill transcends the genders. You can start relating beta behavior to female behavior and really succeed in life as well.

        [–]1johnnight 7 points8 points  (0 children)

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        Male hunters understand reciprocal altruism. Women understand beta male gifts.

        [–]JungerianStoic 4 points5 points  (8 children)

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        I'm in the midst of this right now...

        Several months ago I lent a long-term F buddy a large sum of money (not for me, but for most people) so that she could meet a deadline for a trip she'd been wanting to take for quite a while now. I've never put this girl on a pedestal. We're just friends who bang now and then, and I thought I'd do her a solid helping her out. Well, her months-long trip came and went, and she's now back stateside. Not only has she not contacted me about paying me back, but she hasn't even asked me how I'm doing. The kicker? I'm deployed to a combat zone, and I'm out on missions outside the wire on a regular basis. I didn't expect any special favors from this girl, but I guess I was wrong in assuming she would at least show some token gratitude and concern for my well-being.

        And for the comments saying the woman at the center of OP's post is an exceptional "cunt"...I've been with quite a few women, and this is one of the few women I've banged that I've actually befriended over the years. I'm not one for absolutes, but this experience definitely pulls me in the AWALT direction.

        ...And no, I'm not that stupid. I'm on good terms with this girl's well off mother. Worst case scenario I'd jut hit her up for my money.

        [–]subcover 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        I wouldn't hesitate. Send a simple note to her "when can you pay me back the money?" If no reply, forward it to her mother.

        I think the F buddy status is over so it's all about getting back the money. And in any case, that has to be settled before she respects you again.

        [–][deleted]  (6 children)

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        [deleted]

          [–]1bicepsblastingstud 9 points10 points  (2 children)

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          If he's a contractor, he's making upwards of $10k/month with expenses of $0.

          [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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          [deleted]

            [–]harkrank 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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            Where are you going with this? Different people have different viewpoints. If you're trying to tell him he's a fool for lending money to a plate just do that.

            [–]JungerianStoic 1 point2 points  (2 children)

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            1. Why do you care? I only mentioned it to avoid being labeled a dumbass for lending a woman a personally significant amount of money.

            2. I work in combat zones because its meaningful, masculine work. Would rather die working out here at the age of 30 than live to 80 having worked behind a desk my whole life. Too many men in modern society have no skin in the game of life, and I pity them.

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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            [deleted]

              [–]JungerianStoic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              What a measured response. Have a nice day, guy.

              [–]CrimsonIgloo 6 points7 points  (1 child)

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              This is classic 'Nice Guy Syndrome'.

              A silent agreement was set in place by yourself expecting her to fulfil the other end of the deal when you required it. When she didn't live up to it, you feel cheated and when she was confronted about getting something for free from you she feels pissed off because she doesn't have the full control over you she thought she had. It was a shit test from her, seeing if she could get something from you with no strings attached. But you had one there she didn't' know about and gave it a tug.

              To avoid this in future, make your intentions known. 'Here's you tickets.. You owe me one down the track though!' would of been enough.

              [–]ProductivityMonster 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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              nope...you need a specific concession from her and payment up front whenever possible..."Fast track XYZ high priority client for me first and then we have a deal."

              There's no such thing as a favor for a woman unless I do it of my own initiative without expecting anything in return. All other requests by women coworkers (not your boss) for help will be treated as transactions that require up front payment.

              [–]barleymoo 4 points5 points  (2 children)

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              I wonder if this lack of reciprocity on the part of women is another reason for the glass ceiling i.e. the higher you rise in the business or corporate world the more your further advancement depends on giving and receiving favours.

              [–]Ovadox 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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              You should dig deeper into that question and come back with a separate post. I know I'd be interested to read the results.

              [–]sway_usa 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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              I concur. I would love to hear some analysis on this.

              [–]monsieurhire2 4 points5 points  (10 children)

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              "Yesterday I asked her to help me fast track a high level client's needs. Not only did she fuck up his entire experience to the point where he may never come back, she complained about me asking her to do it to her boss."

              Why did you think you needed her help?

              [–]VegasHostTre[S] 11 points12 points  (5 children)

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              I work at a casino/hotel and thus needed her to help me check my guest in since VIP services is a mess right now. She screwed up the reservation so badly that he left in an uproar. Now as I'm on the phone trying to save face with the guy, the hotel manager calls me into the office says SHE was complaining about ME trying to get the guest checked in and save a ton of time. After I not only gave her tickets, these were floor seats 3 rows back of the performance. Briffault's Law is a motherfucker

              [–]monsieurhire2 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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              Well, your co-worker is clearly a tone-deaf idiot. You will never do anything for her again. You expected some reciprocation but didn't get any. She viewed what you did as a unilateral gift. She's an idiot.

              [–]fiat_lux_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              I don't understand. What did she have to gain from complaining to the hotel manager?

              [–]Sturmgeist781 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              What is this woman's actual job? That's some huge audicity to complain about you.

              [–]subcover 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              Same shit as women do when there's a breakup. Try to poison the well. This bitch is a bitch. Not all women are that devious, but she's clearly turned against you.

              Try to document her mistakes and get her fired, that's all I can suggest.

              [–]Wheat-Thins 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              Tell the manager that you gave her concert tickets and you expected her to help you out, and thats why you asked her to help you. Let the manager judge.

              [–]RogueSteel 1 point2 points  (3 children)

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              This. I am very curious as to why it would have been in bad taste for you to open the door yourself.

              [–]subcover 9 points10 points  (2 children)

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              So we should never trust female coworkers with any important task?

              Seems to me then we should get rid of those female coworkers. Right?

              [–]bluedrygrass 8 points9 points  (0 children)

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              Well, we should, for many different reasons. It's always better to work in a male-only ambient.

              [–]RogueSteel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              Not what I'm saying at all, maybe she knew the aforementioned clients from a previous deal? Just curious about the circumstances is all.

              [–]aazav 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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              I love how she finds a way to divert the blame from her and pin the blame on you for her fuckup.

              When it all comes down to it, a woman will try to be as manipulative as possible and not face (or take) responsibility for her actions.

              [–]Echo906 2 points3 points  (6 children)

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              Ok this is a good thread to ask this. I have this girl at work that needs my help all the time.

              Now I am kind of her mentor as I was forced to train her in a highly technical field (medical imaging).

              Now she's pretty fucking helpless. She has made huge strides but there are times where I am doing way more of her work than should be allowed.

              Now someone trained me so I also see it as repaying me debt to society. But it's getting pretty fucking annoying. Yes she's hot and a princess.

              Now I would bang her but I'm in a LTR and she just got engaged so there doesn't seems to be anything sexual In the works for us. So I just want to distance myself without all the drama of just tellig her to fuck off.

              Any ideas? She's literally cries and gets all emotional when the work load gets tough. I don't know how to handle it.

              [–]1Jaereth 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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              This has nothing to do with man/woman favors or anything.

              She's literally cries and gets all emotional when the work load gets tough.

              She's not mature enough for that level of a professional career. Tell your supervisor.

              [–]Echo906 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              Well in a sense it does. I do her favors such as looking over patient tests and other things and I get nothing.

              But I agree.

              [–]zer0nix 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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              there are times where I am doing way more of her work than should be allowed.

              i'm upvoting this because i want to see how y'all would navigate this landmine.

              my first thought is that you need to have documentation for credibility. record specific times, specific tasks and what you demonstrated on each particular occasion. i would also try to make sure your boss knows about each time that you solved a problem -even if it doesn't involve helping a coworker- through whatever would leave an accessible and unimpeachable trail (email, etc). this creates an additional layer of documentation. i would ask your boss if you can make additional recordings of you giving this girl advice so that you can get advice on your delivery and method, which establishes your level of performance and commitment. make her take notes, as notetaking and notesharing are expected (if not compulsory) in most technical fields. make her use carbon copy and take one of the copies for yourself, then forward it to your boss and to yourself. make sure she understands that the carbon copies are for the company (which is technically true).

              if you haven't done so already, i would confront your boss with the truth, that this girl is sucking up an incredible amount of your time and she is malicious or incompetent.

              also, the next time this girl asks for your help, stand back and make her do all the work while you watch. after all, 'it is easier to learn by doing than by watching.' if she makes it particularly difficult, call in your supervisor, especially if you have proof that you have already demonstrated how to do that specific task. if she fucks up on purpose, your boss will see that it is the cunt who is fucking things up. if she plays stupid or gets antagonistic then you will already have documentation demonstrating how you have helped her in the past.

              tldr: make sure your boss knows what's up.

              [–]Echo906 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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              This is pretty solid advice. The paper trail is good to have but I don't think I have to get as involved as carbon copies of work performed only because my work is pretty highly regarded in my company.

              Also, I should note she has tried to play the friend card a few times and I fell for it once. I don't just jump at her beck and call but there are serious consequences in making mistakes in my field so I am more inclined to help seeing as peoples treatment and ultimately their lives can hinge on our findings.

              Truth is she is a user. She has even said as much that she didn't want to be friends and that's when all the behavior hit my like a ton of bricks and I saw myself how she saw me.

              This is not normal behavior for me at all really. I am a nice guy but not overly nice. And once I saw how bad I was being used I got pissed and just starting negging her hard but she just doesn't get it.

              Now the workplace is tough because you don't want to get labeled as the guy who causes toxic environments or as the bad co-worker.

              It's a situation I haven't experienced and not sure how to move forward so that I'm not being shit on while simultaneously not endangering patients.

              [–]MockingDead 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              Any ideas? She's literally cries and gets all emotional when the work load gets tough. I don't know how to handle it.

              Honestly, she won't learn to figure it out with you holding her hand. The tough work load is part of the job. If she can't hack it, she needs to find another job.

              [–]harkrank 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              As long as you're getting paid reasonably more than her. As the guy who trained you probably did. But if she's crying just tell your boss to get rid off her. There has to be a limit.

              [–]dicklord_airplane 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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              when doing favors for people, i've learned that you've always got to establish that they owe you for it. otherwise, you really can't expect anything from them. how could you possibly expect anything in return if you don't establish that you expect them to return the favor? besides, showing that you demand something in return is attractive as fuck because it demonstrates self-esteem, self-respect, and competence in negotiation. it commands respect, whereas doing favors with no expectation of a return makes you look like a doormat, like someone to be used. and she did use you.

              "alright i can get you those tickets, but what are you going to do for me in return?" then negotiate. "ok, you've gotta help with me my client next week."

              if they still try to weasel their way out of returning the favor even after you've negotiated terms, then you've learned that he or she is a scoundrel that you don't want in your life anyway.

              [–]Mechbiscuit 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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              Hey, can you buy me a drink?

              Briffault's Law.......

              [–]pounds_not_dollars 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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              You should have made he exchange more contract like and a specific thing for her to do. If it's just a good deed and tbh the tickets were free, the obligation to return the favour will decay at a very high rate.

              [–]oldschoolmailman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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              If there is one place that TRP can help daily, it has to be in the workplace. My relationship to my females colleagues and my frustration has decreased dramatically post-swallow.

              Just remember, OP- feminism hasn't changed much in the real world. In the workplace (and just about everywhere else), men are expected to be leaders, take initiative, and solve problems on their own. The second you fail in that regard is the second you will be pounced on.

              [–]dureye 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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              Your were thinking of a ,"quid pro quo" and got a "quid pro nihil".

              [–]variableLt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              I don't know and care where posters here work, but this particular event, from my experience is not limited to females only.

              When I am in the similar situation at work, I, without hesitation, force my end of the bargain until I get it: I would rather be without people around me than without my end of the deal. Of course, I give the person in question a sensible amount of time for recuperation, but as soon as I can sense the time has come, I become ruthless.

              People forget and more often, ignore deals which makes me irritated: and I cannot stand myself being irritated.

              [–]DrakeSaint 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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              "Hey VegasHostTre, do you mind if I get two tickets for this concert? I really, really, really want to take my mom to watch it!"

              "Sure, Co-worker-I'm-totally-not-interested-in-banging, I could get this in a few moments! By the way, think that next week you can help me with those future prospects? I could use a hand in this, and I really, really, really would appreaciate your help."

              [–]yummyluckycharms 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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              The issue was that the high level client probably needed something rush - meaning it wasn't expected.

              Nevertheless, even if he had extracted that promise from her, I highly doubt she would keep it.

              Scorpion and the frog after all

              [–]iceet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              Thank you for sharing my brother. I am sorry you had to go through this, maybe we all can learn something from your unfair experience.

              [–]Counter423 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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              Lol. Wow that is messed up.

              Working in offices is soul crushing enough as it is.

              [–]pleasedontknowme30 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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              Not only did she fuck up his entire experience to the point where he may never come back, she complained about me asking her to do it to her boss.

              So it sounds like she did try to help, but did it poorly, and in doing it poorly, made herself look bad, which resulted in her trying to protect herself by complaining to her boss. Now, had she given the guy a good experience, and he wanted to come back...would you have written this post? Just because you did something nice for someone, doesn't mean when they do something nice back (or attempt to) it will be done to your satisfaction.