all 124 comments

[–]brotherjustincrowe 139 points140 points  (18 children)

This reminds me of a WWI era British army maxim.

  • A soldier never worries. Either you will deploy or you won't. If you don't deploy, don't worry.

  • If you deploy, you either will go to the front or you won't. If you don't go to the front, don't worry.

  • If you go to the front, you either will see combat or you won't. If you don't see combat, don't worry.

  • If you see combat, you either will be wounded or you won't. If you're not wounded, don't worry.

  • If you're wounded, it either will be serious or it won't. If it's not serious, don't worry.

  • If your wound is serious, you'll either survive it or you won't. If you survive it, don't worry.

  • If you don't survive your wound, you won't be around to worry.

And that's why a soldier never worries.

[–]grass_cutter 25 points26 points  (11 children)

Some worrying is an evolutionary response to make sure you don't get yourself killed.

If you're worried that building looks fishy and possibly filled with C4, and command wants you to go in there, you better be worried enough to raise your concerns.

Pain and worrying and fear are all evolutionary responses that often go awry, but when they work correctly, they are necessary for survival.

But yes the idea of outcome independence --- aka only worrying about things under your control vs. not under your control, is sound.

[–]Redrog1 17 points18 points  (9 children)

I have long suspected the abundant PTSD that soldiers suffer nowadays is because of the false expectations the media creates of the real nature of war on children and young men. When they get there, realize their mistake, can not quit without life changing legal repercussions and are under a heavy hierarchical system with an marked ideologic direction... It has to be mind breaking.

[–][deleted]  (8 children)

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    [–]stc_one 20 points21 points  (4 children)

    Pretty sure he waa getting at how they dont realize just how badly those things will affect them, and when they do, its too late to back out

    [–]morsX 8 points9 points  (3 children)

    This is exactly it. Societies have moved away from centering around warriors (see Sparta, Rome, Holy Roman Empire, Middle Ages during the Crusades) and more toward peaceful occupations.

    [–]Entrefut 7 points8 points  (2 children)

    Considering the boys in those civilizations were born and bred to kill and the boys in ours aren't even allowed to play cowboys and indians, don't slaughter their own livestock, don't hunt, don't really do anything that pre-industrial man did, it's not surprising at all. It's not just warriors, it's this catered lifestyle.

    Would a 35 year experience ER doctor get the same severity of PTSD as a fresh 20 year old marine? Doubt it, I'm sure 90% of the shit wouldn't faze him at that point, he'd just view it as more death. The thing about our society is that not only does it glorify the spirit of war, but it completely hides and neglects all the repercussions and evil behind war. The realities are ignored and the conceptualized "benefits" are highlighted. If people were introduced to more realities at a younger age and the media wasn't so feminized, PTSD wouldn't be as bad and support for war wouldn't be as high. People would go to war knowing exactly what to expect, trauma. The fact that there are people who come back from war WITHOUT PTSD is amazing. I think the worst part about it for the guys that have PTSD is the fact that our society ignores the realities so much that they feel detached, betrayed and lied to when they return.

    Just and opinion, I have no real personal experience with war related PTSD.

    [–]1Judasace 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    PTSD is as old as war itself. It has nothing to do with feminized society, lack of manliness in boys, etc. Even cursory Google search will yield many accounts of ancient cases.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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        [–]xerale 2 points3 points  (3 children)

        if you survive it. Don't worry.

        Paralysed, testicles blown off or missing limbs. If you DO survive a serious injury you should worry.

        [–]brotherjustincrowe -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

        No.

        You shouldn't.

        Either look into corrective surgery or a device to help you get along (wheelchair, prosthetics e.g.) or learn to live coping with your disability.

        Either way, don't worry.

        [–]xerale 4 points5 points  (1 child)

        The qoute just kind of losses its value at that point. Becuase as the 'dont worry' options are good outcomes in themselves. Sure serious injuries might be better than dying in SOME cases but it's still shit and worth avoiding. Having a serious injury isnt a positive.

        [–]brotherjustincrowe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        And what do you gain from worrying about it?

        To clarify: in that situation, as noted above, it's beyond your control. Either the injury is serious or it's not, and once we've established it is, there's nothing you can do about that either way, other than try to recover as best you can. You know what impedes the body's healing process? Stress. A soldier never worries.

        [–]Tip4Tool 12 points13 points  (1 child)

        My favorite stoic passage:

        Marcus Aurelius – Meditations 2003 Modern Library Translation

        From Book 9

        When you run up against someone else’s shamelessness, ask yourself this: Is a world without shamelessness possible?

        No.

        Then don’t ask the impossible. There have to be shameless people in the world. This is one of them.

        The same for someone vicious or untrustworthy, or with any other defect. Remembering that the whole class has to exist will make you more tolerant of its members.

        Another useful point to bear in mind: What qualities has nature given us to counter that defect? As an antidote to unkindness it gave us kindness. And other qualities to balance other flaws. And when others stray off course, you can always try to set them straight, because every wrongdoer is doing something wrong-doing something the wrong way.

        And how does it injure you anyway? You’ll find that none of the people you’re upset about has done anything that could do damage to your mind. But that’s all that “harm” or “injury” could mean. Yes, boorish people do boorish things. What’s strange or unheard-of about that? Isn’t it yourself you should reproach- for not anticipating that they’d act this way? The logos gave you the means to see it – that a person would act a given way – but you paid no attention. And now you’re astonished that he’s gone and done it. So when you call someone “untrustworthy” or “ungrateful,” turn the reproach on yourself. It was you who did wrong. By assuming that someone with those traits deserved your trust. Or by doing them a favor and expecting something in return, instead of looking to the action itself for your reward. What else did you expect from helping someone out? Isn’t it enough that you’ve done what your nature demands? You want a salary for it too? As if your eyes expected a reward for seeing, or your feet for walking. That’s what they were made for. By doing what they were designed to do, they’re performing their function. Whereas humans were made to help others. And when we do help others – or help them do something – we’re doing what we were designed for. We perform our function.

        [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Thanks for this. I do hope more people here contributed stuff from Marcus Aurelius here. It is incredibly inspiring and relevant.

        [–]1TrainingTheBrain 93 points94 points  (32 children)

        A big jump in contentment and ultimately owning my relationship was when I stopped expecting my wife to be at the mental level in which I was operating on.

        For a while I made covert contracts and expected my unspoken good deeds to be recognized, because as a man I knew these little things went beyond the call of duty.

        I’ve said it before, but for the sake of providing an example, when I would text her I always capitalized “I Love You”. A subtle thing that I did because those words mean a lot to me. I thought she would see this, she never realized it.

        The resentment I held dissipated once I recognized that women simply cannot operate the way men do. They miss the appreciation of things like honor, virtue, trend analysis, etc.

        Also, after joining the Navy and basically going through what would become my rite of passage to becoming what we would view as an ‘Alpha’ I made sure that it was clear to my wife and everyone else I knew, family included, that they were all tagging along in my ride through this life. No person, not my wife or kids, are my life.

        This ultimately turned out to be 2 of the largest actions that I have taken that resulted with the most immediate turnaround regarding the profits I received. I am now, years after implementing these things living in what I would view as the only possibility for a successful marriage. I lead, she follows and supports, we have a great sex life, kids are disciplined and being raised to meet the standard I am setting and overall we are all doing great and improving.

        It is important to note that there is no ‘end’ to any of this. We should all continue to improve our knowledge and understanding of the hows and whys women operate the way they do from TRP and other related sources.

        While we are all raising the standard of the modern male living in an ever increasing feminized society, it is important to refuse to entertain expectations, popular opinion, and simply do what is right and be a man.

        Find comfort in the discomfort of this knowledge.

        Edit: Spelling

        [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 26 points27 points  (24 children)

        I would love to learn more about how this helps you raise your kids. I haven't found much about that topic.

        [–]1TrainingTheBrain 87 points88 points  (21 children)

        One aspect that has improved due to this type of philosophy is that I have been able to remove the influence others push on me regarding my kids.

        • I do not allow them to watch TV unless it is raining or a game is on. They both love football and baseball.

        • Snacks are snacks and are surprises and enjoyable when they get them. Eating fast food or getting ice cream is not an expectation; it’s a “holy shit this awesome” moment for them because it is very infrequent.

        • I say “No.” you wouldn’t think that would even be a thing but too many parents simply can’t say No to their kids and they try to be friends instead of authoritative role models.

        • I’m involved and whether or not I think I need sleep or rest, I refuse. They deserve every ounce of me and they get it. I read to them every night, I make sure they practice their writing, I do NOT think that their teacher is the only one responsible for their education.

        I was told all of this would prevent them from developing as they were not exposed to as much Sesame Street or Barney that played a role in speech/attention development. Now I’m not a fucking TV Nazi, I will allow a moderated amount of TV time like watching a movie or maybe a show, but never to excess.

        This has resulted in them be very imaginative and in great shape. They love to climb and go for walks; I’m a fucking active dude as well so I love pretending I’m on American Ninja Warrior while they hit the slides and monkey bars.

        The opinion of others is unfortunately formed by the relentless barrage of advertisements and corporations shoving ‘Buy this/Do this’ to the consumerist lifestyle people live. I Refuse to allow that type of mentality reach my kids, for as long as I can at least.

        Raise your kids the way you ‘raise’ yourself. By doing what is right and not what is easy. It’s easy to slack off from the gym just like it is easy to put a kid in front of a tablet.

        Enjoy the discomfort of raising kids and always set the standard from which you will measure them. If you see a deficiency in your child, look in the mirror.

        If you are divorced and do not have custody, I would be interested in how you handle that as I do not know what you would be able to do outside of trying to influence enough to prevent anything from sinking in from your wife as she will not maintain the standard you are setting as a Family Alpha.

        [–]alphabeta49 19 points20 points  (2 children)

        The opinion of others is unfortunately formed by the relentless barrage of advertisements and corporations shoving ‘Buy this/Do this’ to the consumerist lifestyle people live. I Refuse to allow that type of mentality reach my kids, for as long as I can at least.

        This is one of the things that pisses me off about Western, consumerist iCulture. You say you're going to keep that mentality from reaching your kids, as long as you can. Something I'm planning on doing with my son (and probably my daughter too, but more emphasis on my son because I know how his mind works, duh, I'm a guy too) is challenging him to think about the world like I do. He's only 2 now, but from an early age I plan on showing him point blank how offensive commercials are, how blatant consumerism is, and how mind numbingly pussified most men have become, and let him make his own thoughts about it. I disagree that at some point we have to give them over to the world. If we do it right, by the time they're 18, they're a more potent weapon against feminism, consumerism, and BP thinking than we'll ever be.

        This bend-over-and-let-the-world-fuck-me attitude is a pet peeve of mine because I was raised in a conservative Christian household that said religiously, "the world is not our home, we're so oppressed, the world sucks." I see it now as an extreme victim mentality. Fuck the world, I'm going to make MY world what I want it to be, because I'm a man and I can, and my children (especially my son) will follow suit.

        (I know I ranted based on one little phrase of yours, thanks for indulging me.)

        [–]1TrainingTheBrain 8 points9 points  (1 child)

        Your rant was fine and I think you may have slightly misunderstood what I meant. I will never act like that or allow him to act in such a manner. My goal is to educate him, in the exact manner you stated. I want to keep others from ever telling him he needs x, y, z to be 'cool' or has to act a certain way.

        Neither you nor I can prevent that once they enter the school system.

        What we can do is exactly what we are both doing, educating them to be prepared and have a higher sense of understanding than those around them.

        My son and daughter will have more information than I ever did, and the example I will set will hopefully permeate to others kids that my kids influence.

        Solid points and we need more fathers instilling these virtues in their children. Accepting mediocrity is never an acceptable decision.

        [–]realdev 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Neither you nor I can prevent that once they enter the school system.

        There's always unschooling / homeschooling. Or CAVA if you're in Cali.

        [–]rokwedge 10 points11 points  (0 children)

        Raise your kids the way you ‘raise’ yourself. By doing what is right and not what is easy. It’s easy to slack off from the gym just like it is easy to put a kid in front of a tablet.

        Enjoy the discomfort of raising kids and always set the standard from which you will measure them. If you see a deficiency in your child, look in the mirror.

        Fantastic advice and thank you for offering a unique perspective.

        [–]lazypengu1n 5 points6 points  (1 child)

        even as an early 20s dude i'm really enjoying your wisdom. no additions, just a thanks for taking the time to type it all out.

        also sounds as though you're doing a cracking job at parenting. keep it up.

        [–]PracticallyAlpha 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        We advocate speaking with women like children because the same techniques work in disciplining children as in disciplining women. It's simple, but it seems illogical. Saying no to your kids, taking an active role in their development, and setting strict boundaries are three things that too many modern parents completely fail to do. Feminism has resulted in the propagation of coddling not only of children but also of adult women.

        [–]alpha_n3rd 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I was told all of this would prevent them from developing as they were not exposed to as much Sesame Street or Barney that played a role in speech/attention development. Now I’m not a fucking TV Nazi, I will allow a moderated amount of TV time like watching a movie or maybe a show, but never to excess.

        This has resulted in them be very imaginative and in great shape. They love to climb and go for walks;

        This sounds a lot like us. We watch a few short videos per week. Very selective about content. Heavy on science and nature. Kids always make up these super crazy creative games and stories.

        [–]LeGrandDiableBlanc 0 points1 point  (5 children)

        Do other parents/educators ever give you shit for your methods?

        [–]1TrainingTheBrain 2 points3 points  (4 children)

        I've been called the food, tv, Fitness Nazi.

        These came after telling my kids no, they could not eat snacks all day, no they cannot sit inside and watch TV when it was beautiful out, and when I suggest, very subtly, that my parents and siblings could snack less and move more.

        [–]LeGrandDiableBlanc 3 points4 points  (2 children)

        Isn't it amazing how fucking whacked people are these days?

        Shame on you for making your children into active, healthy people!

        [–]1TrainingTheBrain 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        It is insane how out of touch people have become with actually living.

        [–]ROIVeritas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Comsumerism. We've become byproducts of a lifestyle obsession.

        [–]cos_2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Its funny when you actually ask people to justify their behavior.

        Not even that, just simply, "Why?" Why eat that junk food, why burn away an entire afternoon watching TV you get nothing out of, why criticize someone who's clearly taking control of their fitness when they themselves won't lift a finger, I could go on.

        Just don't bury why its getting done under adult abstractions. There does come a point where you need to stop being an authority and start knowing when you need to be a friend for your kid, a friend, and when to be the adult. You need to let your kid learn how to be self sufficient and independent. High school is that point where you figure out whether you've fucked up or not as a parent when you watch your kid fuck up- because they're kids- and then watch what they do afterwards.

        That's the important bit. People are quick to lambast uninvolved parents but on the other end of the spectrum disciplinarians and helicopter parents produce even more insufferable shits. Those are the mother fuckers who think that feelings mean something- that being sorry somehow absolves them of responsibility- or that they have to hold themselves up to someone's standards other than their own. Uninvolved parents might make the next generation of slackers, dropouts and burnouts, but guess who produces the next generation of brown nosers, career whores and prostitutes? And I'm not talking about sex workers.

        [–]TheWaysian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Friend, you have summarized what I have wanted to do for a long time...I just need to finish up college and i'll be making those next steps of securing an LTR and raising my children with dignity, discipline, and honor. Thank you for your reaffirming post.

        [–]the99percent1 0 points1 point  (4 children)

        If you are divorce with kids, you are already doing it wrong...

        [–]1TrainingTheBrain 10 points11 points  (2 children)

        Agreed, I think that would be absolute hell for me.

        [–]tyofwa 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Okay, now rephrase your statement in a more stoic / OI frame.

        [–]1TrainingTheBrain 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        My relationship with my wife is in my control, I do not worry about divorce. I do the best I can to be the best I can and that is the best I can do to ensure we never separate.

        The education of my children and the habits they learn are a direct reflection of the effort I am willing to put into them. How others raise their kids makes no difference to how I operate.

        [–]RK-no 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        Yes, but so many of us have come here from being frustrated in marriage or divorce and didn't know the score beforehand.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [deleted]

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Do you mean /r/RedPillParenting? There isn't much activity going on there, unfortunately. It seems dead.

          [–]NotABibleScholar 9 points10 points  (1 child)

          You hit a lot of key elements. People mistakingly believe only religious people indoctrinate. The whole world is trying to indoctrinate you, and the vast majority target your kids. They are your kids, you take ownership of how you want to shape their life,if they dont like it, once they adults they can do what they like. Its your home, your rules... Once they are grown they can get their own house and establish their own rules.

          Controlling outside media, or relationships that you view are harmful is key. Then you can removve a lot of blame. Taking ownership of their education is another area brilliantly pointed out. Don't be a passive tool, your kids are not just some people that happen to be living in your house that you support. Leading by example does far more than people realize, children and people in general look for others to model or pattern themselves after.

          [–]1TrainingTheBrain 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Solid reply and I agree.

          The only hope we have is for people to start talking less and doing more.

          "Without action, words are just words."

          I find myself sharing this quote more and more as it hits the nail on the head. Take action, lead by example, take the right path over the easy path.

          [–]imaRPman 8 points9 points  (1 child)

          Great post. This is exactly how its done!

          Too many here are angry and not wanting to get married or have kids. Getting married and having kids was not my mistake. I made mistakes as i went along but as a man, you gotta own and fix your shit.

          [–]1TrainingTheBrain 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          We all need to take a bit bite of humble pie and admit that we can do better. Then, we need to actually DO better.

          [–]Ehcadroj 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          Find comfort in the discomfort of this knowledge.

          I grew up in a small, rural, and religious town. I moved to the next largest centre 8 hours away for school which also had an agricultural college. You know right away when someone is from the city or not.

          For me, I grew up red pill in a town that manufacured steel and mined.

          The depressing part of my time in the city, and something I was never prepared for ever, was the loneliness I felt in myself when I would look out into the world, and in the people I would meet, and not see the same knowledge of what is real and what isn't. Those that came from rural communities I knew right away - you could see it in their eyes, and hear it in their voice; men, women, it didn't matter. You just knew they weren't part of the hysteria.

          [–]Partizanct 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          The timing of the post for my personal LTR kampf is unreal. Just when I was overthinking shit it came along and reset my mindset.

          [–]LeGrandDiableBlanc 11 points12 points  (11 children)

          Couldn't you just as easily redefine the problem as, "I am committed to a woman who doesn't care about or otherwise suit my needs"?

          In this sense, you regain power over the problem because you are the one in control of the fact that you're actively committing to her. As such, you are free to leave the relationship if it doesn't meet your needs.

          [–]grewapair 4 points5 points  (3 children)

          What you are saying is true, but self improvement is always a good approach because it makes it less likely she will lose interest and if you do decide to end the relationship, you're already at your peak shape to find the next one.

          [–]LeGrandDiableBlanc 6 points7 points  (2 children)

          I agree, however I would argue that self improvement is an ongoing process you should be engaged in regardless of the women in your life.

          In a way, tying self improvement to one individual woman is just another example of pedestrianization, oneitis, and putting the locus of your motivation outside of yourself.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

          In my post i am clear that your OI gets you closer to sex with women, not just w wife. This reframing even helps to Next her. In a way, Next can come naturally from self improvement.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 3 points4 points  (6 children)

          You can always redefine the problem such that you have less responsabilty over things. But that isn't being a man nor a way to live happily. It is just the equivalent of the drunken captain drinking more and firing everyone who doesn't bring him more rum. Sure, the captain can do that, but that isn't acting like a captain. The Stoics would say it isn't virtuous.

          [–]LeGrandDiableBlanc 2 points3 points  (5 children)

          You can always redefine the problem such that you have less responsabilty over things. But that isn't being a man nor a way to live happily.

          I don't think framing your decision to stay with a person as being contingent on them meeting your needs as forgoing responsibility at all. It's putting yourself first.

          It is just the equivalent of the drunken captain drinking more and firing everyone who doesn't bring him more rum. Sure, the captain can do that, but that isn't acting like a captain.

          The difference here is that a captain doesn't need rum in order to do his job. It actually make shim suck at his job. A man does need sexual intimacy on a regular basis in order to function in a relationship however.

          The Stoics would say it isn't virtuous.

          I don't think you understand Stoic philosophy. Stoic ethics hold reason as the chief/only means by which the goodness of an action is judged. Essentially, you are only doing something bad if it is illogical, and being illogical is necessarily always ethically bad.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

          I misunderstood your phrase "I am committed to a woman who doesn't care about or otherwise suit my needs" There is something a bit strange about how you phrase this, maybe it is because english as a second language, but on first reading, it seems you were saying you wanted to commit to a woman who doesn't care about you. I thought you were giving up your power completely!

          Now I understand what you were really saying. You really meant something like "I do commit, but only to women that bring happiness to my life in the ways that are meaningful to me. Otherwise, I prefer to be on my own." I agree with you, my post was only from misunderstanding your reframing.

          [–]LeGrandDiableBlanc 0 points1 point  (3 children)

          The confusion probably stems from the 'or'.

          The problem rephrased: "I am committed to a woman who doesn't care about my needs.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

          I still don't get it. Why would you be committed to such a woman? Instead, why not reframe the problem to "I'm not committed to women that don't care about my sexual needs"?

          [–]LeGrandDiableBlanc 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          I am saying that you should not be commiteded to such a women. If you're not committed to such a women, then you don't have a problem. On the other hand, if you are committed to such a woman then you do have a problem.

          You're confusing the way I choose to phrase the problem for a solution of some sort.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Yeah, I get it now. I think that was my whole disagreement, I misunderstood. In my post I was saying reframing the problem in a way it was more empowering to you as the solution to not be frustrated. In your comment you just really highlighted what were the inner assumptions that made the old problem so frustrating as a way to really make you realize what was so wrong about it and find a solution.

          I agree with you now.

          [–]charlesbukowksi 18 points19 points  (0 children)

          in the words of marcus aurelius, don't wish for a way to have sex with her, wish not to want to.

          [–]basilwhite 8 points9 points  (0 children)

          tl;dr Grant me the serenity to accept the poontang I cannot change; the courage to change the poontang I can; and the wisdom to know the difference.

          [–]undead_keyboard 6 points7 points  (1 child)

          Thank you for this post. I feel like I really understand outcome independence in a way that I didn't before. I now see more ways to incorporate it not only into my personal life, but my career as well, thanks to the power of redefining situations to put them under my control.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I found that some of the more basic concepts in TRP are hard to grasp, and I hope others as well help out to take them apart in detail to really study them so we can internalize them better.

          [–]tyzon05 4 points5 points  (4 children)

          I have to plug /r/Stoicism.

          It's a great resource if you want to read more about these "dead Greeks" that share a lot of views with those of this community.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

          I have learned a lot there!

          [–]tyzon05 2 points3 points  (2 children)

          I'm actually planning on doing a report for this subreddit on The Enchiridion by Epictetus.

          It's a must-read for anyone interested in Stoicism, in my opinion, and I think people here would get a lot out of it.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          You have motivated me to go read that next. Please, notify me when you post your report, as I would love to discuss this with you more.

          [–]Surf_Or_Die 7 points8 points  (1 child)

          Good shit, but remove the tl;dr. In fact, it should be a bannable offense on this forum. Read the fucking post you lazy pieces of shit.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Read the fucking post you lazy pieces of shit.

          Maybe I should change the tl;dr to say just that: "Read the fucking post you lazy pieces of shit."

          [–]deadally 14 points15 points  (5 children)

          This is fantastic advice without resorting to the usual generalizations that may or may not be true. It's just sound, solid prescription for how to make YOURSELF happier through mental states YOU can control, as opposed to the manipulation that is typically advocated.

          Thanks!

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 12 points13 points  (4 children)

          If you are interested in more stuff like this, I encourage you read the Stoics. A quick intro to their main tricks can be found in the popular book "A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy" by William B. Irvine.

          [–]deadally 2 points3 points  (2 children)

          I appreciate that. Over-rumination has been one of my personal challenges in self improvement.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          I face that challenge as well. Stoicism has helped me a lot with this issue. It isn't for everyone, but if you are very logically inclined, it will appeal to you.

          [–]FinnianWhitefir 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I'm surprised to see Stoicism popping up in numerous places lately. I randomly ended up with The Art Of Living and credit it as a big part of my life changing. It's funny how it's not even changes, but just a mental calmness as you don't spend any energy on things that don't actually matter. Very freeing.

          [–]AtlasAnimated 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          I'm just finishing it up now actually, all-in-all its a very concise and practical read.

          [–]2RedPillSafe 6 points7 points  (2 children)

          • Excellent post.

          To be stoic means you know the "boundries" of your control.

          I've been expressing similiar ideas with respect to MGTOW. At the most basic Monk Mode level of MGTOW your "boundry" extends just to your own body. You no longer feel any dependency to the world outside you.

          As you grow your stoic control "boundry" you ultimately include Plate Spinning and if you achieve high enough SMV can be an Alpha male and actually attempt to "own" a woman using Game.


          The big jump is from Beta to Stoic (MGTOW).

          Once you "unplug" and set your "boundries" you become an individuated man.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          Indeed. I focused on the LRT example only because OI is discussed less often there. OI is very clear when talking about approaching girls at the club, but I felt some more digging in was required to really explain OI.

          I think OI comes naturally in all areas of lice once you are honest and clear about what you control and what are your real goals for yourself. The Stoic trick above is just a very general way to think about that, and applies way beyond LTR. I actually thought about posting it under TRP Theory, but thought that maybe the LRT crowd would appreciate the example more.

          [–]2RedPillSafe 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Wow, we're using "OI" for "Outcome Independence" already.

          Took me a second to pick up on that.


          Yeah, I encountered a post where a guy was arguing that MGTOW, Alpha, Beta were all unrelated discrete entities and my point was that the core of everything Red Pill is this Stoic sense of what you can control. Everything we discuss adds on top of the Stoic frame and things flow into each other.

          Red Pill is more a "process" like "growing up" than disjointed personality types.

          In the old days (1980's pop psychology) MGTOW was called "BOOM". ("Becomimg One's Own Man")

          [–]SeekingTheWay 19 points20 points  (3 children)

          I don’t worry about breathing right now because breathing is right now fully under my control.

          Thanks for making me breathe manually biatch

          [–]3 Endorsed ContributorF9R 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          Look at it this way: you've been given a reminder to focus on deep breathing.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I didn't know my frame was so powerful I control the breath of others with it. (JK)

          [–]dinkle_berrg 3 points4 points  (1 child)

          Informative, academic post. This kind of content is what we need more of on TRP. Well done

          [–]epUser 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          I would like to add that this is basically setting boundaries in your life and that it can be seen in older people who although are frail phisically have this air of strength and emotional resilience.

          They have well separated and a clear notion of what is in their "zone of control".

          [–]ysef95 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          This is precisely what TRP is about great in depth post looking at a really interesting way of using philosophy to solve the problems a lot of men have.

          Great work and I think seeing more stuff like this and fewer unreferenced and ungrounded posts would make this place even better

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          My style is different than others here, and that prevented me from posting in TRP. I'm frankly a bit surprised about the many upvotes. But I'm glad it was well received, and I hope it leads to fruitful discussions so I can learn more as well.

          [–]Pyrostic 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          Glad you took my advice and posted. You da man /u/strategos_autokrator

          [–]Finucho 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Amazing, amazing post. This guy knows what he's talking about.

          [–]PizzaismyJam 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          Best TRP post I've read in a while.

          Life is about you, and how YOU make it what you want it to be.

          Virtual gold for you sir.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Thanks. I'm surprised and glad about the reception. As you can see, it is my first post in TRP (although I have posted in some other minor subreddits).

          [–]jianinglai 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          Thanks for sharing. Very powerful Jedi mind trick that I will incorporate into my life.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Please report back about how it goes, the challenges and victories. I know I will learn from it. I often find I learn more from my failures than my successes, and just being honest about them is the best teacher.

          [–]Kyuzo_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          You reframed the problem to maintain frame

          If there was one sentence with which you could try to tell people how to incorporate RP theory into their lives, this is it.

          It's the Neo/Morpheus conversation in the matrix:

          "You're telling me I can dodge bullets?" "What I'm telling you Neo, is that when you're ready, you won't have to"

          When you can reframe the problem to maintain frame, you don't need any tricks.

          [–]Gootierrez 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          This is beautifully said. If you want a place to begin watch this ted talk. Its about work and happiness but it is the same principle.

          http://www.ted.com/talks/shawn_achor_the_happy_secret_to_better_work?language=en

          My example of how I do it: When I go out the bars the goal is to have fun, hit on girls and hopefully bring one home. If I don't, well I still had fun. I get to go home, sleep and just relax. I never lose with this mindset.

          It boils down to how I wish to interpret my situation. It does take a bit of maturity and time to do this but if I did it anyone can.

          [–]SixthAxiom 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          Thank you for posting this. This way of thinking feels almost enlightening.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I'm glad it helps. It is a very simple trick, but it does make us clear up a lot of bullshit, and understand what we are really in control off. And that is very empowering.

          [–]Gz53bz3ekpqZ 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          Thank you for that post. Redefining the problem can easily be done by internalizing your goals and make them independent from external factors not under your control. In this case my goal was to have sex with my wife, my wife is an external factor (to my mind and control) which makes that goal partly under her control. I reset that goal to work on myself so that i become the most attractive version of myself to her. that way all the components to reach that goal are internal (to my mind and my control) and fulfilling it is completely up to me. This is really just rephrasing your tl;dr but it might help someone to better understand/apply the method.

          [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Yes, I like your interpretation also.

          [–][deleted]  (1 child)

          [deleted]

            [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            my dying marriage is a new problem

            Have you read the standard books on that? MMSLP or something like that?

            [–]simpleshadow 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            Read this on Friday after pulling some rather beta shit with my girlfriend and wrote your Epictetus quote on my whiteboard of my refrigerator.

            Proceeded to have mind-blowing sex with girlfriend nearly a dozen times over the weekend and completely recouped my Game losses by attaining my stoic OI Frame. Golden stuff. Thanks.

            [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            You would have never guessed a dead greek will help you get mind blowing sex...

            [–]Buchloe 4 points5 points  (0 children)

            Click here to see the 1 weird TRP trick her gynecologist doesn't want you to know about

            [–]j-coordinate 3 points4 points  (3 children)

            If her main power is keeping her legs closed? Figuring a trick to open them? Fuck that,ill get my fix somewhere else.

            [–]vanhagen 2 points3 points  (2 children)

            Exactly. My solution to this is not to get into a serious relationship in the first place. You have no control over what someone else does. If I dont get what I want from one woman I move on to the next and dont look back. Women are like buses, if you miss one another will be along shortly. Not getting sex? Time to DTB!

            [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            I agree with this view as one for of Outcome Independence. My post is for people already in LTRs to understand how to reframe their problems to internalize how what you say js always an option. However part of the LTR game is that as soon as you start to think this way many times the dread convinces her to change. Either way you get what you want.

            [–]j-coordinate 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I cannot stand this accepting hypergamy and accepting them for what they are and to not have high expectations.they don't know what loyalty is? Yeh so fuck them.they can accept my polygamy.if I cant Change them or they cant reign in their selfish desires im not reigning in mine.

            [–]SPESHALBEAMCANNON 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            How do you not worry about meteorites? THEY'RE EVERYWHERE

            [–]Jtacc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Not sure if something like this has been mentioned in this thread yet, but I've begun to use a quick easy "reference" to remind myself how I should be analyzing any problems that come my way. Someone else typed something similar out in a thread awhile back, and it really helped me understand what re-framing situations and holding frame meant.

            A problem arises. Imagine that this problem has been painted into a picture. You begin to look at this picture, but you don't like what you see. There's something wrong with this picture; the frame. The picture has been framed by the world, by lesser men, and by girls. You rip the frame off of the picture and begin handcrafting your own frame for the picture. Much better. Looking at the picture through your own frame allows you to focus on the things that matter without distraction.

            [–]getomc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I lways thought of it like a wishbone. If you push or pull, you lose. Just hold on and say something fucked up.

            [–]ProductivityMonster -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

            tldr - separate big complex problems into the parts you can control and then act on them.

            Did you really need write a wall of text to say this?

            [–]t21spectre 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            Agreed, very verbose

            It seems OP read Part One of The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People and now he has to tell all of us about it.

            [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I encourage you to contribute your own post on this topic that is less verbose. Different people understand things from different perspectives, maybe yours can reach others.

            [–]smokingmonkey420 -1 points0 points  (5 children)

            If you like Greco-Roman philosophy, you should try Greco-Roman wrestling. That'll teach you some stoicism.

            [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

            Can you comment on what it teaches about stoicism different than other martial arts? I am asking because i like martial arts.

            [–]smokingmonkey420 0 points1 point  (3 children)

            Well, I originally intended to to just make a light hearted joke. I really enjoyed your post. Greco-Roman wrestling is pretty sweet too. Lots of throws.

            But there certainly is some truth to it. Hand to hand combat with an opponent is primal. Our ancestors fought to the death for the favor of women. I imagine the whole concept of stoicism as a philosophy stems from the brutal nature of our being.

            So it's one thing to meditate on the concept of stoicism, but it's quite another to actually live it.

            [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

            How specifically does greco-roman wrestling has helped you to live stoically? Is there some particular about it, or is it just the lessons from facing another opponent that we can get in other sports and martial Arts?

            [–]smokingmonkey420 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            Any martial art will do. Wrestling is unique in that you can go "live" almost everyday. That's simply not possible with the other disciplines that incorporate striking.

            Perhaps, the biggest difference is the training. In college I would have to workout twice a day for around 6 months at a time. Matches and tournaments on weekends. My life literally revolved around the sport.

            Consistently battling everyday just makes you tough. There is nothing conscious about it. When you go about your day and recognize that 99% of the population never went through this kind of thing it is empowering.

            [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Yes, I practiced some judo and now some jiu-jutsu, and know what you mean! I love that you can really fight in those frequently. It is great for my confidence. Striking arts are great, but you can't put as much energy as frequently fighting, because of injury risks.

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

            [deleted]

              [–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Decide you will work hard to become the man women want to have sex with. No, I've more important things to do.

              Then why are you on TRP? That is the point of TRP. I guess you are just trolling. It is like going to /r/fitness just to say you have no interest in becoming fit because you have more important things.