all 147 comments

[–]bama79rolltide 184 points185 points  (44 children)

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"Men, if you're looking for a long term relationship, you need to balance alpha and beta traits. You won't keep a woman around with purely alpha behavior, just as you won't with purely beta behavior."

Finding the balance is the entire nature of the game. I like this a lot.

[–]zeb_atlas15 79 points80 points  (13 children)

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Finding the balance is the entire nature of the game. I like this a lot.

Not to mention it keeps us from actually being the dehumanized assholes that a lot of other people say we are. Lots of good logic in this post

[–]circlhat -2 points-1 points  (12 children)

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Not to mention it keeps us from actually being the dehumanized assholes that a lot of other people say we are. Lots of good logic in this post

Alpha doesn't mean being a asshole, I actually quite kind, and sweet, but as a Alpha I demand to be treated the same way I treat others

[–]ThePacketSlinger 60 points61 points  (11 children)

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but as a Alpha I demand to be treated the same way I treat others

Alpha, like beta, should be used to describe traits, not people. Declaring yourself an alpha looks silly and weak.

[–]USmellFunny 17 points18 points  (4 children)

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I look at the Alpha/Beta thingy as a spectrum of traits. The big mistake most (especially new) redpillers tend to do is look at it like a duality.

[–]Evers89 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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You can't really blame them. Without good information like this post here for clarification, they assume everything beta is weakness. They attribute their pain dealing with women to being weak.

It doesn't help that some of our boys here like to fly off the handle throwing insults at whatever they see as not "alpha".

I'm thankful this post was put up so we can get back on the same page.

[–]ThePacketSlinger 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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Agreed, it's not binary.

[–]1bradyo2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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I think you have it spot on here.

[–]BooksofMagic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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Agreed. I didn't really understand until I read MMSL. Reading that the beta traits don't need to be squashed but incorporated into the 'new you' really gave a nice shot in the arm for my self worth and confidence.

[–]Chippendork -5 points-4 points  (5 children)

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Is this not the essence of the red pill - knowing that there is a social stratification, and you exist somewhere on it?

I think a lot of people have wolf society totally wrong here. Males generally fall into three categories: Alpha, Beta, and Gamma. They are positions, not behaviors.

Gamma are the outcasts. They literally get kicked out of the tribe because they are small, weak, look different, smell different, or just don't follow along like the other Betas. Their life is hell, and they have to fend for themselves. If they survive to maturity, which is rare, they come back to the pack to breed. When wolves breed, they are literally stuck together, so now the Gamma has a death match with the Alpha while stuck to the female. If he wins, he becomes the Alpha. Females will breed with him right away and Betas will follow him.

So you are not an Alpha unless you autonomously control a sizable empire. Potential Alphas are Gammas: outcasts, failures, freaks and losers. If you see yourself as moderately successful and working your way up, you are a Beta. Knowing where you stand is the red pill. Doing something about it is a whole different matter.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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Should point out that the whole alpha/beta wolf thing was discredited. It's an outdated concept. Wolves actually switch between alpha/beta depending on what is needed. It's a fluid thing, not a fixed thing.

[–]BooksofMagic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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Wolves actually switch between alpha/beta depending on what is needed.

Thanks for pointing this out. I was aware of this before and I feel that this is actually a much BETTER example to follow than the myth. Beta isn't bad, it just needs to be used carefully.

[–]ThePacketSlinger 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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Men are not wolves. While there is a social hierarchy, it's not as simplistic as alpha, beta, omega, gamma etc. While you might be amog in one group, you might not be in a different group, depending on who makes up the group and how you rank among them. Like people in general, it's fluid and always changing based on timing and environment. To simplify for the purpose of discussion on trp, alpha and beta describe specific traits. Everyone has some alpha traits mixed in with some beta traits. No one is 100% alpha or beta, and those who claim to be are fools or trolls. Redpill is recognizing that and adapting your traits to suit your situation. You don't hunt rabbits with an elephant gun, and you don't hunt elephants with a .22. It's all about using the correct tool for the job, consistently and adaptively.

[–]still_very_alive 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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Firstly, the alpha/beta dichotomy we use here has absolutely nothing to do with wolves. That's something our critics get confused about. Secondly, did you see the Gervais Principle website that was making the rounds a while ago? The concept of status illegibility was explained there and gives great insights into the alpha/beta/omega of group hierarchies.

[–]Chippendork 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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Okay then I'm behind the power curve on semantics. Is there a coherent definition of Alpha and Beta behavior? Or, for that matter, a concise scientific description of human social structure which is followed here?

I hadn't see that link before, but I read it. This was painful for me as I don't watch TV, and quite frankly I'm also instinctually ignorant of my position on the social strata.

On a personal note, I recognize that this is often at my peril. I very commonly join groups at the bottom of their food chain because they need me for some functional reason, and I'm the best they can find to do the work. Note my username as a poignant example from my life story. My sense of pride comes from being the best, at everything. I fucking hate people that get further in life by playing the social game better, but, I have to admit that it works a lot better than my strategy. Outside of sports, I don't think I've ever seen the best man win. That's why I'm here.

[–]mbr902000 15 points16 points  (21 children)

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My example of a good balance comes from one of the TRP basics. You can be her shoulder to cry on and the person she wants to express herself to which is moderately beta behavior. You NEVER, EVER, use her as your shoulder to cry on unless you hate getting vagina on a regular basis.

[–][deleted]  (19 children)

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    [–]1gerwig 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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    Possible shoulders: close friend, dog, journal, therapist

    [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 7 points8 points  (8 children)

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    That's why there's beer and guy friends, vent to them.

    [–][deleted]  (7 children)

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      [–]1 MMachiavellianRed[M] 9 points10 points  (2 children)

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      Feel free to leave then, if you're going to stay around you'd do yourself well to not undermine the sub by needlessly insulting it, your ignorance and contempt is no excuse for your bigotry.

      Keep up such behaviors and you'll be removed forcefully, the choice is entirely yours.

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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        [–]1 MMachiavellianRed[M] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

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        If you lack the self-discipline to exercise a critical mind and hold your tongue then so be it. Goodbye.

        [–]Kharn0 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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        It's no ones job to convince you to stay. Go if you want, stay if you want, no one is going to hold your hand.

        [–]Woompus 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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        Perhaps you need better guy friends. Sure friends give each other a hard time, but a real friend will never look down on you for confiding.

        And hey, as you've said you've been here for an hour. Go to the top posts, browse, don't swallow anything, you'd be a fool to so quickly, but dont act as if after an hour in trp you know what you're talking about.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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          [–]steadymotion 4 points5 points  (7 children)

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          Alone, preferably. That's the only time I do it. It feels dignified that way.

          [–][deleted]  (6 children)

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            [–]steadymotion 9 points10 points  (5 children)

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            It's simple. You don't burden anyone else with your sadness. People already live sad enough lives. To provide value to them, you should make them feel good. You want people to always be comfortable around you, to feel like you're a source of positivity in their life. Therefore, as a general rule, you cry alone. And personally, it feels better that way.

            [–][deleted]  (4 children)

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              [–]steadymotion 9 points10 points  (3 children)

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              Is it not possible that when they provide value to you they feel better about themselves?

              Certainly. When my mother cooks me dinner, she gets a good feeling from it because she respects me and loves me.

              And when you're comfortable around that person is that not showing them your trust in them, which is something to hold positively?

              Crying in front of them has nothing to do with trust. They are merely a witness, a receptacle of your crying. They will by default feel empathy for you, and in their subconscious they will feel they need to look out for you, because you are able to be hurt by things (as signified by your crying). They will view you as a weaker person, more as a mouth to feed than as a protector and a provider. Personally, I do not want anyone to view me in that manner.

              I was told from a young age to express my issues and problems so this all seems very backwards to me.

              When you cry alone, you are expressing your issues. You'd be a fool if you really needed to cry but you refused to do it out of some bullshit code of honor. When your body needs to cry, it is healthy to do so. But nothing good will come of expressing your issues onto someone else. Healthy men are fully capable of dealing with their emotional issues on their own. That's what independence is.

              When someone is behaving in a manner you will not tolerate, that's a good time to tell them how you feel about it. But there's no need to get emotional. Express your boundaries in a calm, firm manner. Women bare their every little frustration and anxiety for the whole world to see. Men don't bother other people with such petty things, because we were built to be stronger than that.

              You will find that if you follow my advice, people will respect you more. They won't bother you with petty things, because you don't deal in petty things. You deal with important things. They will come to you when they have a real problem, because they respect you, and they know you're the only one strong enough to deal with it. And they will love you for that.

              [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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                [–]steadymotion 6 points7 points  (1 child)

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                I'm the king of generalizations. I stereotype without remorse. It works well, as long as you train yourself to recognize the exceptions.

                [–]mbr902000 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                I'm here for ya buddy. If you are new here, that is a common reaction. Once you lean on her for your "needs" or cry like a bitch, you become just like one of her "girlfriends". Just read some stuff in here and don't dismiss so quickly

                [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Thanks random redditer! I needed this advice.

                [–]derek985 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                Came to the comments to post exactly the same quote and provide some positive feedback. This is so very, very true. I've been in a relationship with the same woman for 3+ years and that balance is very difficult to master, but pays dividends when you do. For me, it's about leadership not domination, strength but not toughness, self-respect not self-centeredness, assertiveness not rudeness, confidence not cockiness, and the list goes on and on. You also have to know when to follow the "rules" and when to break them - all of it is as complicated as the emotions that drive most women which is to say, very - but when practiced correctly and intuitively provides great reward for both yourself and your girl. Thanks redpillschool for keeping this sub on track.

                [–]1KyfhoMyoba 2 points3 points  (2 children)

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                A case has been made that if one is in a monogamous LTR that BY DEFINITION one is not alpha. The dark triad doesn't "commit". Maybe they say they do, or say "I do," but their behavior in reality is quite different. I see 3 ways of defining alpha. Each has their uses. 1) intrinsic qualities, ie, dark triad, dominance, physical characteristics, etc. 2) behaviors that exhibit these intrinsic qualities , and 3) the responses of the rest of the world/women, i.e., it is women that decide who is alpha.

                Also remember that women's thought process on this topic are almost always heuristic, that is, she has created, or there are hard-wired, cognitive short cuts that will give her a "good enough" answer w/o taking a lot of time. Social proof is an excellent example. Also, feedback loops are very common. The exact same behavior performed by a man already perceived as alpha will be perceived as an "alpha move" or funny, but by a man already thought of as an omega loser will be thought of as "creepy", and will amplify the previous perception. This is why married hard betas can so easily get stuck in death-spirals. She has mentally put him in a certain category, and every behavior short of dread game serves to reinforce that perception. I could go on, but Rollo on therationalmale.com does it much, MUCH better.

                [–]nillotampoco 7 points8 points  (1 child)

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                DAE Dark Triad? You don't have to be dark triad to be alpha. Some folks like monogamous sex for different reasons(effort, comfortability/fetishes, religion) it isn't all spin plates or gtfo.

                I work full time and go to school full time having a girlfriend makes my life simpler.

                Also where do you get this batshit insane idea that women decide what is alpha? Have you never been amongst a man among men? A natural leader, the guy other guys listen to when he talks? Women decide who they like to fuck, it is obvious here what those traits are, but being a simple version of an alpha male doesn't require a woman's approval. How do they decide who is alpha in a prison environment with no women around? Fucking crazy there's a hierarchy, but how is it formed with no women around?

                [–]1KyfhoMyoba 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Alpha is contextual. In the context of the SMV, females are the customers (of men) and therefore, make the rules. While it is true that the natural leader that every guy listens to is (usually) attractive to women, but if he's a pussy at home, and lets her get her way all the time, well, someone on this sub will fuck his wife.

                Dominance =/= alpha, lots of overlap, but not identical. For purposes of this sub, the ultimate arbiter alpha is the pussy.

                [–]6TLaRm4g 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Balance implies Alpha and Beta traits are opposite, but in fact they are not entirely.

                There was a graph someone posted a week ago that I can no longer find which showed the results of the study asking women what traits they prefer for short term and long term relationship. What it showed was that alpha traits such as dominance, confidence, physical appearance were preferred for short term, while financial stability, intelligence, faithfulness for long term (don't remember all traits exactly). When you look at it, these traits are not negating each other - you can be very alpha, while still being intelligent and financially stable.

                [–]VelociReactor -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

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                I recently had a close to the wall 9 tell me after a vigorous fuck session, that I am the perfect combination of dangerous(alpha) and sweet(beta), and that this mysteriousness that she couldn't figure out is what drew her to me.

                We may surmise that the closer a woman gets to the wall the more she is attracted to a alpha/beta balance rather than just a full out alpha.

                [–]17 Endorsed ContributorHumanSockPuppet 74 points75 points  (1 child)

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                I enjoy these State of the Subreddit addresses. Keeps us on the right page for helping to keep the community strong and the signal-to-noise ratio high.

                [–]bassivemalls 14 points15 points  (0 children)

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                I agree. The sense of continuity these addresses bring keeps this subreddit on track from derailing into something completely different like a lot of other subreddits do.

                [–]cthulhucumsicle 27 points28 points  (10 children)

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                Thanks again for another wonderful contribution. As a married man successfully recapturing my marriage and my life after 15 very (very!) unhappy years-this subreddit has been one of the most important discoveries in my life. (I mean that quite literally.)

                You guys have saved everything that matters in my life. Thanks.

                RE: OP; I tried to go very RP with my wife of 20 years, and it broke us out of the rut were had decayed into. But it was true that a balance was needed. In fact, I consciously change my RP/BP behavior to match where she is in her mental cycle. Works like magic. All that said - it's hard not to be angry at myself for falling for the big lie and the culture for tricking me so completely into believing that BP was a winning... and morally right way to be and way to live.

                I get filled with rage about it sometimes. Trying to let it go. But it's hard.

                [–]1KyfhoMyoba 3 points4 points  (7 children)

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                I'm right there w/ you, bro. I always try to remind myself to think about it like it's a law of nature (it is) like gravity. When I stumble and fall, I don't get mad at gravity. I'm trying (really, really hard) to mentally lump all the great feminine characteristics that I love so much in with the hypergamy that would otherwise enrage me. I also try to remind myself of the fact that while since the dawn of man, about 80% of all women pass on their genes, but only 40% of the male do. All this hypergamy and hamster-ization made and is making us a better species.

                Oh, and don't think of them as "shit tests", they're really heuristic FITNESS TESTS. They can be very useful to us. One, we know that they exist, what they are like, and how to pass them. Two, the fact that they exist AT ALL in a particular interaction/relationship tells us something important: she has a question about your fitness. Ex: if girl met Ryan Gosling at the club, would he get "shit tested"?

                [–]no_game_player 2 points3 points  (5 children)

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                Ex: if girl met Ryan Gosling at the club, would he get "shit tested"?

                I think so, but I could be wrong. I think it's going to be milder, and expected to pass, but it's still there. It's like testing gold when you're quite confident it is, but you're about to buy it, so you want to be sure. You know what results you're expecting and hoping for, but you run the test anyhow.

                [–]cthulhucumsicle 4 points5 points  (4 children)

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                Don't think so. If you have seen women around real celebrities they get fucking crazy, faces flush, aroused and excited and they throw themselves at those men. It's because the men are already pre-qualified. Like if you bought a lottery ticket but you knew before you bought it that it was a winner. You would be pretty happy.

                Source: Have seen women around celebrities and they are desperate to slut-slime those dudes.

                [–]no_game_player 0 points1 point  (3 children)

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                Gotcha, makes sense. I'm always just talking out of my ass. Still, I would've thought at least some of them would've tried some flirting with really softball ones but the pre-qualification makes sense. The ones who don't think that aren't there anyhow...

                [–]cthulhucumsicle 1 point2 points  (2 children)

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                So true on last point. There is a huge chunk of RP that is self validated because we ignore the situation that leads up to the opportunity.

                Ie girl dressed slutty at a bar is on some level looking for vali-dick-tion. No surprise she rolls for an alpha. Try to go alpha on a second trimester Married girl in her obgyn's waiting room, maybe not so much. ;)

                Note - RP is truth, just observing that the world is complicated.

                [–]no_game_player 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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                Yeah, I grok it.

                [–]cthulhucumsicle 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                [S]o much to grok, so little to grok from.

                [–]cthulhucumsicle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Thanks, that's a cerebral system of managing the process. I am mourning the lost time though. It's one thing to have been a pussy as a teen and twenty something-oh my god the women that I realize now were hurling themselves at me and I was too BP to understand it and enjoy it.

                But I have 15-20 intermittently hellish years of monogamous partnership/marriage that didn't need to be that way. Feeling sorry for myself like a little bitch I guess, working through it.

                [–]tangman 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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                Now I'm curious about your story. How bad was the marriage? What changed? Any advice for guys considering LTR/marriage?

                Up to you if you want to answer. Glad to hear that you are in a happy spot now.

                [–]cthulhucumsicle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                I will reply more when I get a chance. I was such a blue pill bitch and I doubled down the n tripled down then quadrupled down on treating her like a " dude" as far as respect and giving her autonomy, and treating her every hormonal whim as valid. The more I did the more cruel she became as the less she respected me.

                Unfortunately divorce was not an option for either of us (on principle, at least for me) that I just kept my foot on the pedal while the thresher was eating my torso.

                15 years or so of misery and at the core she really just wanted me to lead.

                The one big negative I have at the moment is that have re-won having a sex life... But i used to pedestal the sex and it validated me as a person. Now i see it's an exchange and is therefore less meaningful and that does fuck with me. I have to imagine its like a theist turning atheist. I understand that the myths are just myths, but I saw my human value in them for so long.

                [–]1Zackcid 34 points35 points  (5 children)

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                This post is very encouraging and it makes me happy. It's breaking that vibe of stoic, non-human modestry I've been feeling for a while.

                [–]17 Endorsed ContributorHumanSockPuppet 40 points41 points  (4 children)

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                Too many noobies come in here thinking that "alpha" is some kind of limited resource, and that you can get more of it by taking other guys down a peg or two.

                So they leave half-baked "bromments" and sling insults at other commenters like a woman trying to claw her way to the top of the crab basket.

                They've not yet been fully rehabilitated. They still act the way women have taught them.

                Brothers, if you see a user treating masculinity like a 3rd world country treats its fossil fuel, be sure to school him on what's what. And from time to time, give a mod the gift of the report button.

                [–]angryadult 23 points24 points  (1 child)

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                tl;dr: alpha is not a zero-sum game.

                [–]2 Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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                There is more than enough for everyone, one only need concern himself with that which affects him most.

                [–]16 Endorsed ContributorDemonspawn 43 points44 points  (5 children)

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                I saw it explained this way a while back and the more I think about it the more it makes sense.

                Alpha traits generate arousal.

                Beta traits generate attraction.

                Women are attracted to mostly beta trait men. They like being around them, consider them friends, etc. They just don't want to sleep with these guys because there is no arousal generated.

                While women sleep with high alpha trait men, they aren't happy with the relationship with them. While they obviously have tingles for the guy, they don't feel secure with the guy and that feeling of constantly being on edge will grate on them.

                While you sleep with plenty of women with high alpha traits/almost no beta traits, keeping a relationship with a woman won't be successful over time. Women need some level of security in order to get the emotional connection which will keep her around for an LTR.

                Also, different women need different levels of beta traits in order to feel secure in the relationship. Some girls don't need as much, some need quite a bit more. But demonstrating beta traits does not mean you stop demonstrating alpha traits. You can still be high alpha: flirting with other women, being strong, being a leader, being dominant, and still give your women beta traits that let her know that the strong dominant leader of a man is going to stay with her as long as she holds up her end of the bargain.

                [–]1trplurker 38 points39 points  (3 children)

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                Beta traits generate attraction.

                I totally understand what your saying though I would suggest possibly using a different word for it. "Attraction" tends to be used as short for "sexual attraction" which is what you mean by arousal. Possibly use comfort instead, since that's what beta traits generate. So maybe,

                Alpha traits generate attraction / arousal.

                Beta traits generate comfort.

                That way new folks won't misunderstand it.

                [–]16 Endorsed ContributorDemonspawn 15 points16 points  (0 children)

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                Comfort. I like that. You are correct that too many people lump sexual attraction and attraction together.

                I will disagree with lumping attraction (non-sexual) with arousal for Alpha traits, tho. I've known more than one woman who hated the guys of the guy she couldn't stop sleeping with ;)

                [–]heist_of_saint_graft 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                +1, Comfort is the right word. Mystery had this laid out as one of the three pillars of his method: Attraction, Comfort, and Seduction. In TRP terms, Alpha traits generate attraction, CERTAIN SELECTIVE Beta traits generate comfort, and Seduction is using Game to weave the two together to close the deal with her.

                edit: Beta traits that do not generate Comfort are supplication, crying, physical weakness or emotional weakness. "Beta" traits that generate comfort are provisioning, listening, sharing and responding to emotions, etc. These latter can be done from an Alpha Frame, whereas the former cannot.

                [–]sniperhiding 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Agreed. I reacted a bit when I saw "attraction" there. Comfort is a great suggestion. I would have also suggested closeness, companionship, or familial.

                [–]16 Endorsed Contributorss_camaro 16 points17 points  (8 children)

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                You won't keep a woman around with purely alpha behavior...

                And that's the plan: Stay alpha.

                [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 13 points14 points  (7 children)

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                That's a choice everybody has to make for themselves.

                [–]16 Endorsed Contributorss_camaro 3 points4 points  (6 children)

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                To paraphrase Benny F:

                "They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary putang, deserve neither Liberty nor putang."

                The irony is, nobody really wants a 'keeper'. We just think we do.

                [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

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                I didn't say get married. I said LTR. Never marry. If you don't, you won't lose any liberty.

                [–]16 Endorsed Contributorss_camaro 1 point2 points  (3 children)

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                LTRs are convenient and practical to a point. That point is 30 years of age and/or cohabitation.

                [–]Namerali 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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                You mean after or before your reach 30 years of age?

                [–]16 Endorsed Contributorss_camaro 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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                I'm referring to the expiration date aka the wall.

                Dumpster-divers be advised.

                r/NAWALT

                [–]xiko 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                You are right and so is redpillschool.

                [–]1sailorJery 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                what about when you want to have children? Doesn't being married offer benefits for things like custody and visitation? Or what if something happens to you after you've had kids, would your children be protected and able to stay with their mother?

                [–]1johnnight 16 points17 points  (2 children)

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                women have a dualistic mating strategy they crave alpha seed, but also beta provisions. We spend a lot of time here deriding women for demanding beta, for creating betas - and we spend a lot of time congratulating ourselves that we're not betas. But that's just nonsense. Women have the instinct to curb men's behaviors and betafy men for a multitude of reasons.

                Random idea: at the moment of their life, when older women (mothers, teachers) have an influence on your upbringing, they actually really want the beta. They would say that they "grew out" of their wild young phase of desire for the bad boy and they are "mature" to understand, that provisioning is the key to building a family. Hence, they will betafy you as much as they can, because that "good husband" was what they were looking for in the second adult phase of their lifes.

                If we were to ask them, we would hear this standard story: "So I was attracted to this charming troublemaker, but then I understood what life is about and I met your father at 27/28/29. He was 30 and had a job." In this sense they are not selfish. They want to build you up as a valuable marriage mate, whom they would choose as a post-epiphany phase woman. The troublemaker would lose the mating/reproduction game.

                Which is great, but this won't help any of the younger guys in the torturous 15-30 phase.

                P.S. There is an old literary tragedy trope, where the wild poet/poor musician loses the girl due to hypergamy to the richer older guy. Actually I know a loser musician. I see him playing the guitar everyday in the winter cold on the subway entrance, as I go to my beta provider job in a comfy warm office.

                [–]kratol 5 points6 points  (1 child)

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                This is what mothers have to get. Raise your boy to be the guy your 18 year old self would of loved, not the 38 year old you or you will fail them if your too successful. This counterbalance is what fathers with a spine provide.

                [–]Meglomaniac 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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                However you cannot explain this to women. They live on feelz. They feel they got a good thing with the beta man who lets her walk all over him. She doesnt want the guy who banged her and left, so of course she is going to tell her daughter/son that.

                Women are being HONEST when older women tell us that they want the nice guy, That is legitimately how they feel. They feel lucky and loved to have settled with a beta male who provides for them.

                [–]MSoftHarem 14 points15 points  (19 children)

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                Beta traits are tools, necessary tools that can be used to game her out of her panties, or into a relationship depending on your goals. Do not discard this set of tools because your former (or current) self had too many beta traits. Calibrate accordingly and go after what you want. Beta quite literally means to protect and provide, and when used properly these traits are incredibly powerful at generating attraction.

                Highly unscientific comparison with ass numbers in order to illustrate a point:

                You want to spin plates? Display Alpha/Beta traits in an 80/20 or 90/10 ratio.

                You want a girlfriend/wife? Display Alpha/Beta traits in a 60/40 or 70/30 ratio.

                As /u/Demonspawn pointed out in his post below, displaying one does not remove the other because all of us have both sets of traits (and others) to differing degrees but how and when we choose to display them is the difference.

                Do not forget you will have to calibrate accordingly based on her Dark Triad percentile. As with most everything else, the man has to be higher than the woman.

                [–]16 Endorsed ContributorDemonspawn 4 points5 points  (5 children)

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                The only thing I really disagree with is thinking that adding Beta removes Alpha. They're different traits, but not really the opposite of each other.

                Push/Pull are opposites. And I think that using Push/Pull rather than Alpha/Beta in your above examples would be a better representation of what will work.

                [–]MSoftHarem 4 points5 points  (4 children)

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                Perhaps I could have illustrated it better, but my post was not to imply that one removes the other, merely how often you display one versus the other. Let me edit and clarify.

                [–]randomdude600 2 points3 points  (3 children)

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                While I agree with everything that's been said I think it's important to keep the distinction between external and internal traits clear.

                I think we use the term alpha and beta to describe not only external behavior patterns but mindset/worldview. I think this is the most important because internal game is ultimately the foundation on which everything else is built on.

                Natural/self-made alpha's have/develop an internal locus of concern, control, and power. They are selfish in the best sense of the word because being selfless to please others is manipulative and fake. They know what they want and do what it takes to get it. People are drawn to these men because they feel more "real", exciting and interesting to be around.

                Beta's have an external locus of concern, control, and power. They are constantly worried about what other people feel, they lack a sense of personal efficacy and feel that their fate is not their to control. What other people think of them or tell them they should value/do is of greater importance than their own interests and will.

                I think this is the reason for the frequently needed "alpha is/is not X" posts. I think it's important to remember that while there is a balance of alpha/beta BEHAVIORS as mentioned above you must always keep the alpha mindset or your woman will loose interest.

                Before I knew of the red-pill I had success with women doing beta behaviors but with a more "alpha" mindset. If I'm meditating tons frame control becomes a joke and I'm so un-shit-testable I can't strike out if I try.

                I bring all this up because I know from personal experience that relationship game is the hardest, as you build familiarity you have to keep that mental distance, be intimate and tender but maintain some mystery and aloofness. Bringing more beta-behavior is fine but you have to maintain your focus on the things you choose instead of pedestalizing the "relationship"

                As a long-time meditator and amateur student of psychology I think the behavior/mindset category is very important to the discussion of alpha vs beta

                [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                I'd love to hear more about this meditation method for internalizing alpha. Hopefully you can write more on it!

                [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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                This topic deserves it's own post.

                [–]randomdude600 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                I'll hammer something together tonight when I get home from work

                [–]VodkaTankerSpill 7 points8 points  (3 children)

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                I like this. Weekly reading assignment and discussion of Rollo's material. That man literally distilled redpill knowledge into 98% purity.

                [–]sdmf4life 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                Been lurking for a couple of weeks soaking it in (and it's initially very painful) while reading stuff like rational male year one, but I just wanted to say that I have and am learning a lot in this sub and really appreciate the insight and succinct posts like this especially.

                [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

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                So he's the Heisenberg of redpill

                [–]1KyfhoMyoba 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                therationalmale.com

                Today's post, "Beta fucks" is one of the best I've ever read of his, and I've read everything on his blog. Everything. Every post, every comment. I suggest all here do the same, the comments can be extre-e-e-e-e-emely helpful.

                [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

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                The desire for alpha and beta traits is actually described in the book The Game, when Neil tells Mystery that being the alpha male that got his girlfriend is the same thing that lost her. The need to build comfort, in addition to attraction, is also mentioned.

                [–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (3 children)

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                Not exactly related but I just had a realization as to why mothers beta-ize their sons: They want another provider in case the father dies or disappears. Instead of an alpha son who will have other women in his life and therefore less of an inclination to protect the mother, a beta son will continue to serve his mother, providing resources for her until the day she dies

                [–]sniperhiding 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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                Holy shit, I never thought of it that way.

                [–]1KyfhoMyoba 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                This is profound. "Mrs. Wolowitz, MRS. WOLOWITZ ...."

                [–]anish714 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                And that's why Dads counter to Alphatize their sons?

                [–]Nemester 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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                Beta's are only bad in our current society which gives them literally nothing. Let's not forget that it was and is betas who make civilization possible.

                [–]fenhongyaowan 5 points6 points  (3 children)

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                I fully agree with what you say about beta. A major gripe I have when reading the weekly askreddit 'worst subreddit' discussion, is when people project trp subs as neckbeards who define men into alphas and betas. And while I don't really care what someone would say about their idea of this subreddit's main demographic, the fact that this projection has probably the most truth in it, at least lately, bothers me. Especially when browsing new posts you see this a lot.

                This subreddit is also a place for young men to be mentored by wiser men, and I'm glad this point has now been addressed. Let's keep up the good work.

                [–]malignantbacon 1 point2 points  (2 children)

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                I don't care if other neckbeards circle up and take turns calling some other group neckbeards. I can think for myself enough to filter out the chaff in this subreddit and parse out the stuff that's actually useful.

                [–]fenhongyaowan 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                Most definitely. But it's still useful to address the issue redpillschool proposed. That alpha/beta talk can get pretty immature at times, and those comments often come with a bunch of upvotes as well.

                [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Maybe you can filter it out but new users cant, and the message is being diluted

                [–][deleted]  (4 children)

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                [deleted]

                  [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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                  I'll have to dig it up again but there was a study, I think on Bonobos or something else, that showed that females would grant occasional sexual access to betas to keep them around to take care of otherwise alpha spawn. This would mean that sometimes betas have kids.

                  Edit: It was Robert Sapolsky's work on Human sexuality, he spoke specifically about female Baboons' sexual behaviors rewarding betas for the benefits that come with provisions of a beta. Check out his Human sexuality talks if you get a chance.

                  [–]malignantbacon 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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                  My theory is that "beta" behavior is learned socially, not transmitted biologically, and that it spreads in the same way ideas and "common sense" do. The encouragement of the beta is a meme subcommunicated through real discussion or media depictions of romance (see romantic comedies, love songs in popular music, etc.) that some men try to take on, not realizing that this gets used as leverage against them in what we refer to as "the game."

                  [–]1KyfhoMyoba 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                  This could be true. As I recall my early formative years through my divorce at 30, I can see the beta being beaten into me, and the alpha as being just too much work. I can even remember a specific point in which I made the decision to not be in charge because I didn't think my peer group would appreciate it. Until then, I was still in the running, while not being the most athletic kid. My alpha was always contextual, until I got married. Then it left completely for the duration. The funny thing is, that when I would go all weak and beta-ey, it FELT wrong, but I did it anyway, because I thought "that's what JESUS would do," and "this is what women (say they) want!" lol

                  [–]1KyfhoMyoba 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                  The beta, or rather the opposite of alpha, could be evolutionarily advantageous because if the beta male sticks around, he can help raise and defend his offspring from predators and alphas. It is common among primates (incl. humans) for an invading tribe to kill all the males and young children and rape the women. A child is most in danger from non-biological custodial male, 2nd from non-biological custodial female, 3rd from biological mother, last from biological father.

                  [–]curiusblue 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                  Thank you for this!

                  [–]sniperhiding 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                  Excellent point.

                  Some of you want to still go the LTR path. You don't want to go down the MGTOW or the "never marry" route. But you still want to be unplugged, red pill aware, and NOT be a Mr. Nice Guy pushover bitch.

                  Then you NEED to read "The Married Men Sex Life Primer" or MMSL as it is called here. Even if you want LTR but without marriage.

                  It has a great section that outlines the necessary traits men need to have, from BOTH sides of the coin. Alpha and beta. It needs to be a mix.

                  Athol Kay does a great job with the book, and in reality, beta traits are not bad at all, when in balance with alpha traits. With alpha traits, you are triggering the woman's dopamine responses. With beta traits, you are triggering her Oxytocin responses. You need to trigger both in her.

                  EDIT: as mentioned elsewhere in comments, alpha traits trigger feelings of arousal and attraction. Beta traits trigger feelings of comfort, safety, and closeness.

                  So if you want LTR guys, beta traits are not a bad thing, in the proper context and in the right balance with alpha traits.

                  [–]ThirdLegGuy 5 points6 points  (2 children)

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                  The negative stigma comes from understanding that beta's primary function is to provide, not breed. That's how it became a derogatory term in TRP/PUA context. Every man that finds himself in position of being just a walking wallet while his wife ecstatically screams in a crave of alpha seed perceives that extremely offensive and disgraceful. Because he knows that given a choice, that woman would prefer an alpha over beta any day, and he was just buying her inclination with resources. Her problem is that an alpha doesn't want to commit to her, and therefore a beta is her Plan B. That's what is offensive about that.

                  [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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                  Whereas the perfect man for a woman would have both traits in one.

                  Don't swing too far in the opposite direction just because you got burned.

                  [–]AgentSmith27 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                  The negative stigma comes from understanding that beta's primary function is to provide, not breed

                  The men who commit are the ones who end up having the babies though. In terms of nature, the guys who actually reproduce with the women are the ones who "win".

                  I read this sub a lot, and its a mixed bag on whether I agree with it. Some times there is a lot of insight into the interactions between the sexes, and other times it misses the mark completely. I think part of the reason for this is that people seem to forget that everyone has their own goals.

                  There are things we can agree on that are universally bad, like not being able to move on when a girl doesn't like you (e.g. the friend zone), or being in one sided relationships that are doomed to fail.

                  However, I think this sub is often quick to put a negative spin on things. When a woman chooses a guy because of his resources, I don't really pity him. If he didn't have money/security, he wouldn't have anything. He's managed to leverage his advantages to get what he wants. He gets the sex, his line continues, and therefore he has played his hand well.

                  Most women would rather be with <insert sexy famous person> and most guys would rather be with <insert hot actress/model>... but that doesn't happen. At the end of the day, everyone is trying to get the best they can, and they will do whatever it takes. If they succeed, its a victory.

                  [–]19 Endorsed Contributordrrrrrr 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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                  I respectfully disagree. You can keep a woman with 100% alpha behavior. Women will hamster anything if it provides them access to alpha cock. Most guys, simply because they are half-alpha / half-beta themselves, come up with this rationalization that women actually need a guy with a balance of beta and alpha traits because it makes them feel better about what they are.

                  Alphas can be benevolent, they can emotionally connect with people. They are not dependent on others, they do not NEED the other for their own emotional stability. They may maintain relationships with other women or not, they will value things like their career, their own quest in life, etc more than their relationship, etc. But plenty of women will stick with you through all of that because of the value you provide.

                  You should not seek balance. Moderation is not a good recipe - diluting something effective (RP, alpha, whatever you want to call it) with the behaviors that lead to status loss (BP behaviors, beta, supplication, valuing her over you, etc) will happen naturally for 99% of people (who are themselves somewhere between beta and alpha). If something is right, and something is wrong, choose right - why choose a combination of the two?

                  Beta traits are not bad and I have no judgment against beta males. They help society run and it's because of them that I've been employed too. But I don't want to be one - living with one foot in, one foot out as a manner of speaking will lead you incongruent behavior, loss of frame, etc. You can't be half an alpha, you either are or you're not. The degree to which you merge BP behaviors into your relationship... will just degrade her respect for you that much.

                  Yes, all of RPW might say they want a man who is a mix of the two traits. In reality, though, women SETTLE for half-alpha, half beta men, and they may wind up loving and being decent wives to those guys, but in reality, a alpha would have better results. He would hold frame way better, might get her to be OK with him having a girl on the side, would get more respect from her, would be a better model for a son. This whole "oh a woman won't STAY" with an alpha guy is bullshit, I mean, yes women SAY that but when the fuck do we care what askhamsters says? I know plenty of women who have spent their 20s being the perfect plate-like GF for an alpha. Girls have alpha addictions, they will not walk away because you are two alpha - that is like saying a junkie will walk away from heroin because it's stronger than his usual heroin.

                  You all are confusing "alpha" for "asshole alpha". You're letting the rest of reddit define "alpha" for you. Being alpha doesn't mean you are incompatible with people, unable to care about others, full dark triad, etc. That is a caricature.

                  I do agree calling people beta (and alpha to an extent) on this sub is pointless and should be avoided, since we aren't middle schoolers. Calling another dude a fag or beta because he disagrees with you isn't helping anyone learn anything. But I don't think we should just go ahead and accept "half beta, half alpha is best for LTR!" as another TRP doctrine. That idea is only true if you define alphas as some sort of caveman caricature.

                  [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                  http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1ywequ/mod_on_red_pill_discourse_and_a_brief_discussion/cfp5adi

                  All that's doing is [conflating] the positive beta traits with alpha and missing the point of having the terms at all.

                  (edit mine)

                  [–]ctab2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                  Thank you for breaking down the alpha/beta. I've been lurking lightly and I still have a hard time understanding terms and such. Not easy to balance both.

                  [–]rocsNaviars 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                  thank you for bringing up the documented dichotomy of the varying traits that women are interested in over the course of a month.

                  [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                  Hi I am a new user, sorry I have been misusing the term beta, thanks for the post.

                  [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                  Solid post, fully agree. That said, I may still accidently a beta from temp du temp.

                  [–]AlmostRP 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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                  I really like the fact that you discuss the usage of beta around here. I see a lot of low to mid range experienced guys around here deriding it and often bringing the fact that beta doesn't mean bad will rustle a lot of jimmies.

                  I've also seen a lot of people describe "real" alphas that take care of their family. All that's doing is attributing the positive beta traits with alpha and missing the point of having the terms at all.

                  [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                  I agree, looks like more discussion will be necessary.

                  [–]16 Endorsed ContributorGayLubeOil 4 points5 points  (1 child)

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                  This sounds like concern trolling to me.

                  [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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                  Dammit Redpillschool, can't even be bothered to read the rules!

                  [–]lolphin69 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                  I'm fairly new to TRP, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but as OP mentioned, being beta isn't inherently bad. Some beta traits were the traits that kept women around. Why would a woman want to stay with a purely alpha guy when he can't afford to feed himself let alone her?

                  That said, depending on what type of game you're aiming to achieve, leaning to one side of the alpha/beta scale would play to your advantage

                  [–]SeekingAlpha 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                  Great post. But where's all the bitterness I keep hearing about? Feed me outrage!

                  [–]still_very_alive 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                  Glad to see we get an official post advocating a balance. Pure alpha, as is sometimes stated, are those who end up in prison. The reason we encourage alpha traits is because the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction - to get a healthy balance, most need more alpha traits, since beta traits are the only ones encouraged.

                  [–]ggqq -3 points-2 points  (5 children)

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                  I'm not sure we should encourage beta behaviour - as I think one can do a lot with purely alpha behaviour, but "beta" values. That is to say - one does not have to cheat on his partner (or have multiple partners) to be considered 'alpha' - there is no guidebook that says that plate-spinning is a necessary category for being a desirable male. I think what should be encouraged is the acquisition of resources - like we say, beta 'provisions'. We should remain focussed enough on life to acquire money, power, fame (perhaps) and anything else women may fancy as attractive. Additionally, it is important that we maintain frame and a confident outlook. So I don't think there's anything wrong with associating negative qualities with 'beta' men - it is just that 'beta' qualities are the unwanted qualities of beta men. There remain important qualities about them that we shouldn't forget in pursuit of a long-term relationship.

                  [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 11 points12 points  (4 children)

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                  There's an array of qualities that you do need to embrace for long term partners. Obviously you maintain frame and maintain alpha qualities... but you turn it down to 7 for a relationship. Push and pull. You want to engender comfort and gina tingles.

                  There is a reason women tend to betafy men, they require a provider. And if they get the feeling they're not going to get that from you, they will find somebody who will. They'll hate him. But they'll go to it.

                  This is relationship game, it's a whole new ballgame.

                  [–]8HourPower 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                  Perhaps a series of discussions for the Mods or RP endorsed to branch of into - LTR game (also included in Year 1 topics), considering the spinning plates/ LTR dichotomy of mentalities here.

                  Although the higher quantity for plate spinning discussions is for good reason of course.

                  [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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                  [deleted]

                    [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

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                    Some guys are interested in raising kids. You'll have to make that decision individually, but we'll discuss both strategies here.

                    [–][deleted]  (7 children)

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                    [deleted]

                      [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                      You're going to find that this is incorrect within our framework, please reread the sidebar.

                      Edit: Read

                      http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/23/schedules-of-mating/

                      http://therationalmale.com/2012/10/02/up-the-alpha/

                      The problem that confounds hypergamy is that the arousing Alpha and the attractive Beta rarely exist in the same male, at the same time and at the most opportune time for women to appreciate and capitalize on it. By this I mean that as women proceed through their peak SMV years, they place higher priorities and higher mating value upon predominately Alpha traits. These are the ‘fuck me now’ party years, and Alpha seed far out-values Beta need. As I wrote in Schedules of Mating, on a macro level this translates into a proactive form of cuckoldry. Even if it doesn’t result in a pregnancy, the latent urgency in a woman’s peak is to ‘get the seed first, find the provider later’ (i.e. protracted cuckoldry).

                      The fantasy for women of course is to ‘tame the savage Alpha’ and convert him into a parentally invested partner by encouraging Beta traits in him as he matures, and hopefully prospers. Many a thwarted single mommy knows the unfortunate outcome of attempting to ‘fix’ their Bad Boy Alpha into the Good Dad Father, but this is the emphasis assuming a woman pauses long enough to invest in one particular Alpha during her peak years. The base schema is to maintain that hot Alpha arousal, while developing him into a more attractive Beta provider.

                      [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children)

                      sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

                      Re: Your edit:

                      In nature betas get ZERO woman.

                      That's simply not true- women have a pluralistic mating strategy- they have need for alpha, but also a need for provisions. She wants both, and will give a beta occasional sexual access (if necessary) to keep him providing. Women will crave more aggressive men during certain parts of her cycle that she is most fertile. It's no coincidence that concealed ovulation has allowed her to get beta men to provide for other men's children- he may not even know they're not his!

                      You know the old trope- that sex stops when you get married?

                      That's not because they simply lose attraction (I mean, it does happen...), but instead because the woman may find she no longer needs to offer the token occasional sex for the provisions! (That or her alpha lost his alpha!)

                      Which probably explains why long term relationships tend to stay sexier if they don't get married.

                      [–][deleted]  (4 children)

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                      [deleted]

                        [–]2 Mredpillschool[S,M] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

                        sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

                        First you will have to realize that since we're not wolves, that we did repurpose these terms for our usage.. which we've been doing for a few years. So I suggest you read our sidebar and get up to date.

                        Secondly, we're using the terms to describe traits- not individuals. You aren't grasping the context of our subreddit at all and I suggest you do some sidebar reading before you continue.

                        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                        sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

                        [deleted]

                          [–]2 Mredpillschool[S,M] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

                          No, I am explaining to you how our subreddit works, and you have failed to read the side bar, despite multiple requests to clue you in on the context of our sub.

                          Further, insulting a mod? Really? Gone.

                          [–]DanG3 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                          There are documented and filmed observations of female lions testing Alpha male lions for beta loyalty - for days. He wasn't getting any unless he showed some "oneitis" and stuck around.

                          [–]circlhat -2 points-1 points  (6 children)

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                          As long as TRP keeps saying the phrase, "Apha phux, beta buxs" , Beta will always be considered negative.

                          I admit the word is not being used in the strict dictionary definition and it should be.

                          There are betas who can't provide and alphas who can provide, I don't think it is needed to have both qualities at all for a LTR.

                          I know most of TRP disagrees with this, and if they saw how I was living they would probably say I was beta.

                          For example I will ask her where she would like to go for dinner, I do get her a valentines gift, I do make her feel special , but I don't consider these beta qualities, at least not in my mind. I also let her stay with me rent free, and all her needs taken care of.

                          When I was blue pill my motive for being nice was just to be nice and hope for something more, in my current LTR I expect her to cook and clean, I expect her to talk to me in a respectful matter, Its my house and I'm entitled to anything in it. I take care of her needs , she takes care of mine, the difference is; It's solely on my terms.

                          [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children)

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                          "Apha phux, beta buxs"

                          But that's exactly what it is. The question is: are you the fucks, the bucks, or both?

                          [–]theawesomeone 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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                          I would say having the alpha confidence with the capability of beta provisioning and care is considered the LTR jackpot to many women looking to cash out before hitting the wall. However, women are not opposed to having these needs met by a plurality of men. In this case, being the alpha who gets to have sex, would be much preferred over the beta who gets nothing but an empty wallet.

                          [–]1trplurker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                          The whole purpose of this sub is to understand what all these concepts are and how they apply to relationships and making yourself happy. If someone just wants to slam a bunch of girls in rapid succession, the hard core alpha is the way to go. If you want a girl to hang around and give you repeat business, then they need to insert some beta provisioning and build emotional bonds. Women need both to be happy and aren't above getting them from different guys if one isn't providing her both.

                          [–]circlhat -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

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                          For a lot of guys its, "Alpha Phux , Girls Buxs", you can't really go wrong with alpha for some women.

                          Of course some women won't put up with supporting a man, but you would be surprise how many women take care of their deadbeat boyfriends because of their alpha traits.

                          [–]2 Mredpillschool[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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                          I don't think it's a safe long-term strategy, even if it occasionally works for some.

                          [–]1KyfhoMyoba 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                          Think strippers. I lived with 2 for a minute about 20 yrs ago. One PAYED a guy $50 to leave work 2 hrs early and come over and fuck her.