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[–]16 Endorsed Contributorzyk0s 121 points122 points  (5 children)

The couch, the doghouse, the excuse gifts, it's all things society now expects men to put up with, and with a smile. What's fascinating is how men love to make jokes about this. If you mention your woman having any sort of disagreement with you, they'll bring those things up even more often than women do.

I thought about what psychological process is responsible for this and I have a pet theory. Basically, it's an extension of the crabs in the bucket. These men don't like the idea that a woman would be right to demand something like this of them. They subconsciously feel that it makes them weak, but since they've been taught this was the way of the world for so long, the only way to save face is to make sure this rule is imposed on other men to prevent them from gaining a competitive advantage.

It is even more apparent in their reaction when you tell them that you don't adhere to it. They don't become perplexed, curious or amazed, they become angry, and angry with you, as if you've committed a crime. And you have, you are cheating at the game when they follow the rules, but instead of challenging the rules, they try to bring you down into compliance.

Ultimately, that's how humans enforce laws, so it's a useful trait for social cohesion. What's missing is the courage to look at such laws and rebel if they are unjust. If most men are so eager to enforce the doghouse rule, is it any surprise we've seen more acceptance for laws that introduce more control and reduce people's freedom?

[–]1SelfishStoic 12 points13 points  (1 child)

That is great. The crabs in a bucket model is something I have not explored in that context, but it is definitely applicable. It is jealousy of our freedom, a freedom they failed to achieve.

Also I liked how you tied it back to a mechanism of social cohesion. I blamed it on sheer jealousy, with a zero sum model IE:" you look good, so i look worse". Social cohesion likely grew out of a zero-sum mindset, but I think I need to ponder that further.

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorzyk0s 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Not necessarily a zero-sum mindset. Social cohesion is the recognition that the group can achieve more if some limitations are placed upon all of its members. Boldness is useful, especially to attract a mate, but some things can only be done from a standpoint of security. If you can't trust the rules to be enforced, there is very little you as an individual can hope to accomplish without an unreasonable amount of risk.

The rule of the doghouse goes like this: as a man, I want to have sex, but I can have it only if I'm nice. If I'm not nice, I don't get to have sex, but that's ok, because if the rule is applied to all men, that means nice behavior is going to be rewarded, and bad behavior is going to be punished, and that is good for everyone.

So understandably, they are very confused and especially angry when that bad behavior is indeed rewarded, even more so than the "nice" one. It's as if a group of kids were told they could only take one cookie from the jar, this other kid comes in and takes 2 AND the adults reward him with a fire truck.

[–]Matsew 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The couch, the doghouse, the excuse gifts, it's all things society now expects men to put up with, and with a smile. What's fascinating is how men love to make jokes about this.

I've thought a lot about how ideas are pushed to the public and I've noticed that if you want something outrageous sold, you need to coat it in comedy. Every joke is half the truth. When people laugh, they don't think as much. It's a very powerful and insidious way of setting the frame.

[–]themanbat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I always looked at it as more of a, "I'm telling you this, so you can't say I didn't warn you."

[–][deleted]  (121 children)


    [–]thisjibberjabber 112 points113 points  (51 children)

    It is amazing how the conventional wisdom is preemptive surrender.

    It is also possible to appear to uphold a convention like a diamond ring, so she can keep her status with her peers, while not doing so. Moissanite looks just as good, is nearly as hard (unlike cubic zirconium) and is much much cheaper.

    [–][deleted]  (43 children)


      [–]the_red_scimitar 57 points58 points  (10 children)

      Don't fight with the parents - get HER to do it. See my other post. Get her to very strongly agree with the symbolic gesture of the ring, not the financial one. Then she'll go to bat with her mom.

      [–][deleted]  (4 children)


        [–]bananashammock 6 points7 points  (3 children)

        Keep that frame strong, guy. Don't get on no hamster wheel, and keep that TRP woman in line, and off the plate.

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)


          [–]stumbles047 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          A full-plate can also mean someone has too many responsibilities/problems so keeping her off OP's plate could also mean to de-prioritize her.

          [–]thisjibberjabber 4 points5 points  (6 children)

          She can know it's moissanite but no one else needs to know. You can spend (part of) the money saved on a nice custom setting. Just a thought.

          [–]cascadecombo 20 points21 points  (1 child)

          because rings were originally used as inaurance against men running away, when now the courts do a far better job at it than a ring ever could.

          [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

          Wasn't the chemical structure of moissanite discovered from a meteor? That's just cool IMO. It's lab created but still kinda nerdy spacey.

          [–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          LOL... Well given most people aren't qualified jewelers it would stand to reason if she is a good liar she can pull off the whole rock big enough to make any woman jealous thing.

          Alternatively if you do not feel like lying about it you can always just explain when people ask how you can afford a diamond that big or whatever that it's moissanite because you do not support the diamond industry because the price on diamonds has been gouged into the stratosphere.

          [–]pms777 16 points17 points  (7 children)

          Never forget that you aren't marrying her parents. You have nothong to prove to them. You don't owe them anything.

          Src: my mother is trying to please my father's parents all her life. It is never good enough.

          [–]MicroMinion 6 points7 points  (3 children)

          In the middle east there's have a saying: "you don't just marry the wife, you marry her family too."

          It means that when marrying a woman you should not only look at the woman itsself but at the whole package that comes with it.

          You can't just severe ties to your wife's family just because YOU don't like them. As soon as you marry a daughter you become part of their family too so be careful about the whole deal. If you take marriage lightly it's bound to end wrong.

          [–]mr_wilz 7 points8 points  (1 child)

          You can't just severe ties to your wife's family just because YOU don't like them

          I guess that's a culture thing. I have cut ties to my SO's family and I am glad I did. Then again I have also cut ties to a large part of my own family. I don't see family as much more than what it really is, no magical connection of any sort and if I don't like you as a person, then there is no reason for me to spend time with you.

          [–]MicroMinion 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          It's a shame to hear that. Of course i'm not saying you did the wrong thing to cut ties with them, I know plenty of unbearable parents. But for your SO/wife to be cut off would probably not be the most likeable option.

          Also other people who dont like their wifes parents might have a very hard time getting their wife to agree with them.

          [–][deleted]  (2 children)


            [–]16 Endorsed ContributorCyralea 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            Take it from another brother dating a conservative Asian girl -- keep the parents happy. Your life will be infinitely easier.

            Gaming your girl is one thing, but losing face with extended family is a headache you don't want.

            [–]Infinitezen 3 points4 points  (10 children)

            Hey man, mini vans can be quite practical given the situation, that's a false equivalency :)

            [–][deleted]  (9 children)


              [–]SenorPuff 21 points22 points  (4 children)

              Several of the more business oriented men I've had the privilege of knowing, drive older, less conspicuous vehicles.

              Put simply, the rich don't talk about money. If they want a nice car they'll have one, but they don't get one just to appear rich.

              [–]iloveyoumorethanham 6 points7 points  (0 children)

              Yup. I know a few people who are filthy rich and they drive shitty cars and wear boring non flashy clothes. The people that like to show off seem to be buried in debt.

              [–]Tilting_Gambit 3 points4 points  (2 children)

              There's the idea that most rich people get to where they are because they don't try to APPEAR to be rich, which is what you're saying. They drive a shit car and have a normal house, meanwhile they're sitting on 500k in stock and two investment properties.

              There's also the idea that if you appear to know what you're doing, everybody will assume you do. The guy you replied to is going for this. He wants to appear professional, give that vibe off and not come across as anything but a well put together man. Both views are legitimate, I don't see the other guy splashing money on red Porsche's or coke. He just wants to be the ideal working man.

              [–]stumbles047 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Indeed. Also, being alpha in a social setting seems to have little to do with bank account numbers.

              [–]TehFuggernaut 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              It depends on the image you need to portray. For a CEO, it doesn't matter because at the end of the day you know they're making bank. For the investment firm rep, if he drives a shitty mini-van, you might assume his business is so shit that he can't afford a better car, but if he rolls up in a new Mercedes S500, you know he's at least successful enough (for himself and other clients) to afford a $150k car.

              [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                [–]LittlePedro55 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                If its about money say you don't want to spend a lot, I dont see how not getting a diamond ring is a crazy statement of your intelligence over everyone. In the end they really are not that expensive either.

                [–]1sailorJery 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                dude minivans are awesome, you're missing out

                [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                My parents raised two kids without ever owning a minivan. Never give in.

                [–]john-b 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                This whole "mini-vans are unmanly" stereotype is garbage. TRP teaches to reach your own goals and do what you want in life. If you like the utility of a minivan and don't give a fuck what others are constantly thinking of you, go for it. One of the most solid vehicles I ever drove was a 2001 ford windstar minivan. I drove it until the engine died.

                [–]Dream4eva 23 points24 points  (4 children)

                I had a conversation the other day about marriage with some women. They kept saying how its outdated that the women's family pay for the wedding now days. However when I brought up whether the man should get a diamond ring they were all for it saying it was different.

                They'll take it all and give nothing back.

                [–]Mouthpiece 12 points13 points  (1 child)

                its outdated that the women's family pay for the wedding

                Actually, it's just the wedding that's outdated. But they won't admit that.

                [–]TehFuggernaut 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                My gf is Eastern European, and shes repeatedly told me that her parents don't pay for the wedding in her culture. She's also expressly told me that the idea of the big wedding is a strictly American/western belief - and she doesn't want a big wedding or to spend a lot.

                [–]oxnaes 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Great point to keep in mind

                [–]OneTouchHowMuch 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                It's all one giant shit test.

                Most people will preemptively surrender and will take their place on a lower rung as a result. But not you.

                [–]iloveyoumorethanham 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                Yeah. Fake diamonds are known to be fakes because they are actually too perfect and lack the flaws natural diamonds have, and people shit all over them. It's madness.

                [–]iamnotfromtexas90 20 points21 points  (0 children)

                I'm assuming most know this but still relevant. The band is actually worth money. Diamonds are bullshit, no resale value. Gold and silver have been valuable around the globe for thousands of years.

                [–]19 Endorsed Contributordrrrrrr 18 points19 points  (0 children)

                Yup, if you have to absolutely marry for whatever reason in this fucked up country, give her the diamond test. Will she go for it if there's no ring, or just a modest 100$ band? No? She cares so much about how her friends will not be oohing and ahhing over her hand, and about the wedding feeling Hollywood... to marry you if there's no diamond ring in it? Then why the fuck would you marry her. Absolutely essential compliance test IMO for marriage, if isn't cool with it being a simple, cheap wedding and very, very modest ring, she's not marrying you solely for you.

                Even men push this shit too, with their "real men" stuff.

                "Real men want their wife to feel loved."

                (So I love her, that doesn't have anything to do some shit found in caves in Sierra Leone)

                "Real men serve others! Real men give up everything in a divorce because "they get happy by making her happy!" Real men, I'm a real man!"

                Older married men can be the worst, like they demand you make the same sacrifices they made and get massively butthurt when you get better results by not paying the price they paid.

                [–]Mrswhiskers 16 points17 points  (1 child)

                eventually ends up mentioning "make sure you get a comfortable couch", implying that the guy would be sleeping there.

                ... Fuck I'm dumb. Whenever people would mention that to me I was picturing watching movies together on the couch...

                [–]aussydog 28 points29 points  (0 children)

                Pre-wedding advice is nearly always utterly useless. My strategy was; ignore the words and view the actions. If you see a successful marriage with many years of true happiness see what's done right as it applies to you and yours. (In other words don't try to mold yourself after a marriage that you don't admire in the first place)

                [–]vakerr 14 points15 points  (0 children)

                I think you just broke 99.9% of married couples logic.

                Decades of marriage, I've never slept on the couch. If she doesn't want to sleep in my bed she can sleep in the bathtub or wherever. Interestingly she always choose the comfort of the bed.

                I wonder if this whole sleeping on the couch is just some propaganda thing.

                [–]the_red_scimitar 16 points17 points  (7 children)

                Tell the fiance it's a symbol of love, not money, and ask if she needs more proof... unless she wants to marry you for money.

                [–][deleted]  (6 children)


                  [–]NAmember81 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                  My sister is obsessed about diamonds and jewelry dudes get for her. This chump bought her a $800 ring on credit and has been paying it off for 2 years because of the shitloads of interest. Last week she broke up with him and she wanted a symbol of her new direction in life (don't ask why?) and thought she could go to the jewelry store and just pick out another one at the same value. It was the smallest band with all the money in the rock and I told her that ain't gonna happen, she went to the jewelry store in the mall anyway and the store would only take $200 dollars off of a new purchase of $1000. So she could get a new $1200 ring for only $1000. What a deal! /s

                  [–]dickinlips 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                  Stores know they're worthless.

                  [–]CryptoOrchid 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  This is too true. It's possible to sell your diamond but only if you know the right people and get really lucky.

                  The general rule is that you get about 60% to 70% less than retail I think.

                  [–]Newdist2 9 points10 points  (3 children)

                  Her mom is telling her that she needs at least a 10k diamond ring

                  Are her parents divorced? Sisters? Aunts?

                  [–][deleted]  (2 children)


                    [–]Newdist2 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                    That's a bad sign. Not a dealbreaker by itself.

                    I know you didn't come here to get the usual "don't marry" advice, but you need to look at her history and her extended family's circumstances. Is there anything that makes you think your upcoming marriage has a survival chance greater than the 50% average? Any signs that the chance is less than 50%?

                    Are you OK with 50%?

                    [–]eccaorca 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                    I recently got engaged and the amount of bad advice being pushed on me and my girl is ridiculous. I just got her a simple band, no rocks. Her mom is telling her that she needs at least a 10k diamond ring. And everyone i know (parents, coworkers, friends) are calling bullshit that I didn't buy a diamond ring, because it breaks their hamster wheel.

                    HAHAHAHA. Wow, watch them fuck themselves over in their lives within the next 10 years.

                    Fucking morons with the diamond ring suggestions. LOL. They are just showing how fucking stupid and easily manipulated/influenced they are by others trying to profit from them - girls this can be expected of, but men? Pathetic. A sucker is born every second.

                    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                    I admire you for going with the band. Takes balls man.

                    [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                      Congrats, mate. All the best.

                      [–]Julian_Berryman 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                      This made me smile. Had the same bullshit when my wife and I first got together:

                      "It's just puppy love, you'll grow apart"

                      "It will all change when you move in together"

                      "Just wait until she gets a ring on her finger"

                      "Well you're still in the honeymoon period, better get acquainted with Palmela Handerson!"

                      Her rings were about £400 total. She hasn't changed one bit.

                      I did however, buy her a 'proper' ring for our 10 year anniversary, though it was still only a modest 0.5k. She deserved that just for helping me prove all those twats wrong.

                      Having seen many relationships fail around me, I honestly believe men themselves are the problem. Women are predictable - their behaviour is consistent irrespective of relationship status. Hypergamy, solipsism, shit tests - these never go away.

                      But men, they turn into passive, submissive, almost passengers in their own lives once they feel like they have 'made it'. I've got the girl/kids/house/job - I can take my foot off the gas now; hand over the reins. No. Not ever.

                      [–]2 Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 7 points8 points  (21 children)

                      Wait, why the fuck are you getting married? What's in it for you? What benefit does it provide you?

                      [–][deleted]  (20 children)


                        [–]fnordsnord[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                        You'll get a lot of crap from many RPer's but I'm with you. Raising children is the ONLY reason for a man to get married in this day and age. And screen your prospective wife. Screen, screen, screen. Pre-qualify her, and then screen again.

                        [–]2 Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 6 points7 points  (13 children)

                        Had something similar with my second wife, married to get her heath benefits after being together for 7 years. We didn't make it to ten. Best relationship I've ever had, ended the same as the worst one. Couldn't get two more widely disparate women than my two wives, yet they did the same thing, lied, cheated, left for a loser, now they regret it. Second wife left because I got very sick and didn't look "strong" anymore, it didn't matter that the illness was temporary, women will be women and she jumped on the first guy who showed interest. She was a virgin when I met her, only with me, and then she threw away the best thing that will ever happen to her.

                        No matter how awesome she is, she is still female, that means she is prone to the same shit as the worst of them.

                        [–]17 Endorsed ContributorHumanSockPuppet 3 points4 points  (3 children)

                        and maybe it's old fashioned but I want him to grow up in a complete family where everyone has the same last name.

                        So have your girlfriend legally change her last name to yours. Sure, it'll require some work to maintain the facade until your son is old enough to figure out your shit, but at least you won't be planting a bomb on your bank account and handing your wife the trigger.

                        Don't be a moron. DO NOT get married.

                        [–]1Ill_mumble_that 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                        Or do what I did. The traditional folk/religious marriage. Never registered legally with the state. Why the fuck should the government have a say in whether I'm married or not? Fuck that.

                        [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                          [–]17 Endorsed ContributorHumanSockPuppet 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          Something you should be aware of: I'm not entirely unbiased as far as this topic is concerned.

                          I've seen a lot of family members and close friends (whom I would count as my family) ruined by marriage. They were all stubborn, and they were all convinced that their situation was somehow unique.

                          It never was.

                          The sad truth is that without the threat of repercussion, people become as selfish as they can get away with. Marriage is a contract that you have no part in writing, but to which you are entirely beholden if you submit to it. And that contract is full of penalty clauses for you and incentives for your beloved to break it. You cannot apply threat of repercussion to force your wife be a decent person, because the marriage contract robs you of all leverage. That's what the marriage contract is for.

                          My initial response was a bit knee-jerk, but that's only because I've witnessed the destructive power of wishful thinking and self-deception far too many times. It's easy to imagine a desired outcome, and to set out on a path intending to arrive there eventually. But when the road is marred by other people's manipulations, it's impossible to know where you'll end up until you've arrived there and find yourself out of gas.

                          I don't want to see that happen to anyone here.

                          [–]MyRedAccount 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          It's possible to present as married without legally doing so in the many states without common law marriage. It's also legal for her to change her name. That's what my baby's gonna do. She'll get pretty much all the benefits of marriage minus a little cash so long as she wants to be.

                          [–]WindowToAlaska 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          ............. why the fuck are you engaged and getting married?

                          [–][deleted]  (7 children)


                            [–]oxnaes 20 points21 points  (1 child)

                            The tattoo's forever, the wife's long gone :p

                            [–]Bulldog44 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                            I did this exact thing myself, and you're right lol, bitch is long gone.

                            [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                              [–]BadJokeHour 0 points1 point  (5 children)

                              What's your girl's view on the band?

                              [–][deleted]  (4 children)


                                [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                                  [–]BadJokeHour 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                  I wasn't expecting anything, just genuinely curious. In today's age what you did is definitely very uncommon. I don't think it's a bad idea or anything, just an interesting way to handle a marriage proposal. I definitely don't plan on spending a ridiculous amount of money on my wedding ring either when that day comes so kudos to you.

                                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  Women are really simple in some ways. I know for a fact my GF gets mad facebook envy and when she see's people with kids or showing off their ring she gets all jealous.

                                  [–]ISODAK 48 points49 points  (5 children)

                                  Even in my blue pill days, this was the one thing I got right.

                                  [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (3 children)


                                  accidental alpha happens

                                  [–]ISODAK 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                  Haha, I accidentally the whole alpha. Is this dangerous?

                                  [–]Thizzlebot 125 points126 points  (7 children)

                                  I never got the logic of the man on the couch. Even if its her house, she can go somewhere else if she's butthurt.

                                  [–][deleted] 60 points61 points  (2 children)

                                  The BP logic is simple. Women > Men.

                                  [–]fnordsnord[S] 30 points31 points  (0 children)

                                  That was sorta my thoughts on the matter.

                                  [–]tallwheel 24 points25 points  (1 child)

                                  While growing up, it was always my mom that I found sleeping on the couch in the morning. Never saw my dad do it. Either my dad was retaining frame in bed, or (more likely) my mom was always the butthurt one who stormed off to emphasize how angry she was.

                                  [–]iloveyoumorethanham 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                                  My mom would often sleep on the couch because my dad's snoring would be loud enough to even wake me up a couple of rooms down.

                                  [–]boozerkc 24 points25 points  (15 children)

                                  Her: You're on the couch tonight

                                  Me: I'm 6'2 3220. You're 5'3 110. How you gonna make that happen?

                                  Her: She shut the fuck up.

                                  [–]1Nirvana24 48 points49 points  (3 children)

                                  Shit dude, with a weight like that how are you alive?

                                  [–]Blue_Suede_Horse 13 points14 points  (0 children)

                                  Maybe /u/Boozerkc is an elephant in disguise?

                                  [–]Purecorrupt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                  How is she alive? I keedz but that delta in size has to definitely permit some positions.

                                  [–]OneTouchHowMuch 14 points15 points  (4 children)

                                  How do you even get out of the bedroom?

                                  [–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (3 children)

                                  He doesn't skip leg day....EVER!

                                  [–]red_pill_throw_away 15 points16 points  (0 children)

                                  I'm sure he can't skip for shit

                                  [–]rebuildingMyself 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                                  Fat privilege is never having to do leg day since you can already squat 300+ to get off the toilet.

                                  [–]Dark triad expert: - - [3 Points]IllimitableMan 12 points13 points  (3 children)

                                  320 dude? Shit, hope you're lifting or you'll do a Patrice and die in your 40's.

                                  [–]Xevalous 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                  I think he meant to type 220.

                                  [–]loin_fruit 28 points29 points  (0 children)

                                  I work at a store currently. Can't tell you how many times I hear guys say the wife sent them shopping and if they come back home with the wrong item that they would be sent to the doghouse or some variant.

                                  Or a guy would say "oh I can't make this decision. Better call the boss first"

                                  To them its funny. To me its sad as fuck.

                                  [–]Endorsed Contributor2comment 22 points23 points  (1 child)

                                  15 years ago, I would have said this is just common sense and that's just shit on sitcoms, but my Father was red pill and I never appreciated that until I started dealing with women and their nonsense. The blue pill entrenchment in this country among men never ceases to amaze me.

                                  As such, have a point.

                                  [–]Revo_Luzione 61 points62 points  (0 children)

                                  Frame status: Maintained. Hand status: Maintained. LTR game status: Legit.

                                  [–]Toolazy2work 15 points16 points  (0 children)

                                  I'm still a red pill newbie, lurking mostly, but this is one thing I discovered on my own. If SHE is mad, then SHE can leave and go else where. Her moods should (and don't) affect my sleep or comfort.

                                  [–]Doomsday_ 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                  OP is indeed right although this is a rather simple example.

                                  The principle to keep in mind is poon commandment 4:

                                  IV. Don’t play by her rules

                                  If you allow a woman to make the rules she will resent you with a seething contempt even a rapist cannot inspire. The strongest woman and the most strident feminist wants to be led by, and to submit to, a more powerful man. Polarity is the core of a healthy loving relationship. She does not want the prerogative to walk all over you with her capricious demands and mercurial moods. Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there… strong, solid, unshakeable and immovable.

                                  [–]Adanac23 52 points53 points  (43 children)

                                  I had the same thing happen to me. Wife told me to sleep on the couch during a fight and I very politely told her that hell will freeze over before I ever sleep on the couch. She stormed upstairs and I heard her get ready for bed and then proceed to walk across the house to the guest bedroom. I finished watching a hockey games and went to the guest bedroom and asked her what she was doing. She got all huffy about how if i wouldn't sleep on the couch she was going to sleep in the guest bedroom for awhile. I told her I wasn't interested in having a room mate and that I would pack up in the morning and go to sleep in a hotel. A couple hours later I was getting woken up with a naked wife apologizing.

                                  Edit: Lots of replies.. To me the only thing worse then a husband being banned to the couch is a married couple sleeping in different rooms. To me that is Beta Bux at it's highest level of fruition. Why didn't I blow up and make a huge scene and kick her out of the house? That would have been playing right into her hand. She was trying to get a reaction out of me and instead I calmly told her I would leave first thing in the morning. Like I said in another reply if I am going to be sleeping in different bed than my wife I certainly am not going to be doing it under the same roof and my bed is certainly not going to be cold and empty.

                                  [–][deleted]  (21 children)


                                    [–]sigmared82 54 points55 points  (13 children)

                                    It's nuclear dread game, with a bit of agree and amplify (agreeing with the not being together premise, and amplifying to the point of leaving altogether). This kind of nuclear dread is usually reserved for severely broken and/or spoilt women, ie, borderlines, etc.

                                    [–]enjoyit7 9 points10 points  (12 children)

                                    I don't get it, him sleeping on the couch and him leaving for a hotel are the same to me. I'm pretty sure I would of slept in my bed and ignored her until she came running back to me.

                                    [–]SenorPuff 42 points43 points  (7 children)

                                    Him sleeping on the couch is supplicating to her feelings that she doesn't want to be in bed with someone she's mad at. Him leaving is ending the relationship.

                                    'I don't want you to sleep with me'

                                    'I'm not sleeping outside of my bed'

                                    'Well then I'll go sleep in another room for a while'

                                    'I have no patience for someone who doesn't want to be here with me, so if that's what you want, okay, I'll move out tomorrow '

                                    ' Omigod Babe I love you don't leave me'

                                    It's nuclear dread game and maintaining frame. I will not supplicate to you, you can join me or we can end this thing, but our bed is not a tool for anger and I will not be held hostage by bullshit. If you're done, then I'll deal with it in the morning. Until then, goodnight.

                                    In fewer words, obviously, because women don't care about words.

                                    [–]IAMfuzzy 23 points24 points  (0 children)

                                    To simplify- If you want to act like my roommate and not act like my wife, I'll make it so that you're neither.

                                    [–]enjoyit7 -1 points0 points  (5 children)

                                    I get the ending the relationship part but why end it by ME leaving. I'm always ready to tell a woman to get her shit and leave. It's my place I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving my bed for the couch and I'm for damn sure not leaving my house for a hotel that I have to pay for while paying for my house.

                                    [–]SenorPuff 8 points9 points  (4 children)

                                    Kick her out of a joint owned house? Good luck. Continue to live with her even though it's over? That's a terrible idea.

                                    Be proactive. Lead, don't dig your heels in.

                                    [–]Matsew 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                    never joint own a house with a woman. she lives at your house or you live separately.

                                    [–]SenorPuff 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                    You have to sign a prenup, or otherwise control your finances to where that's possible within a marriage. Possibly if you have an LLC that you are the president of that owns the house, or something. But that's edging on paranoia.

                                    [–]1independentmale 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                    No, a man should never leave his home. Doing so increases the likelihood of the court giving it to the wife. Her lawyer will say you left and abandoned her and the kids. Stay in your house and hold your fucking ground. It's your goddamn castle.

                                    [–]ThePantsThief 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                    Threatening to leave, so you don't actually have to leave. If things didn't go as OP had intended, he could just as well change his mind about leaving or tell her to leave instead.

                                    [–]Darkone06 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                    To you they might be the same. A guy thinks of it in a functional way. A bed is a bed.

                                    Women see a motel as a sign that you have someone else a call away to screw.

                                    A motel is taking it to the extreme.

                                    You want to their me out that's fine. I don't need this house. I don't need your sex a $50 motel and a $100 about is all I need to replace this shit.

                                    And to top it off I'll probably be happier than I ever been with you.

                                    That's what women think when you walk out to a motel instead of the couch.

                                    [–]KarmaEnthusiast 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                    I don't think they're the same. Women don't like to be alone or the feeling of being alone. That's why they call their friends for hours or go on social media or are always distracting themselves if they are alone and can't interact with another person.

                                    The reason is pretty simple, protection. I almost never see hot girls walking around on their own in anything other than fairly public places. Him being on the couch, an intruder walks in she can still scream and he'll come running. In a hotel she has to call him or the police and wait for someone.

                                    He did what all of us try to do with women, demonstrate value.

                                    [–]itchymuller 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                    The possibilty of him fucking someone else on the couch compared to a hotel.... Pretty big.

                                    [–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (4 children)

                                    Your response is sort of combative and dismissive, and doesn't leave her with a choice. She can either be alone in the other room or alone in the same bed. There wasn't any indication of your wish to be with her.

                                    His response is more like "I still want this marriage but not if it turns into roommate status." She was able to happily choose to return to the marriage instead of the bullshit of separate rooms.

                                    LTRs are about saying "I'm in this but it has to be healthy. I will not accept any bullshit substitutes." David Deida in Way of the Superior Man says it's the man's job to provide the direction of the relationship, while the woman provides the energy in the relationship.

                                    [–]1Starswarm 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                                    LTRs are about saying "I'm in this but it has to be healthy. I will not accept any bullshit substitutes."

                                    This is really excellent. Blue pill men in LTRs suffer because they endure and cultivate unhealthy (feminine dominated) relationships. If a man allows himself to be ordered to the couch like a dog, he will never be respected.

                                    One of the hardest aspects of maintaining a LTR is knowing what "healthy" really means in the first place, especially if the people involved are unhealthy themselves (depression, addiction, love, codependency, etc).

                                    By focusing on the development of your SMV and the path of your desire (goals, wants), a red pill Man has the tools to live a life of power and independence.

                                    [–]Adanac23 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                    Because I am not about to allow a precedence of sleeping in separate rooms. If thats what she want I will go to a hotel room and find someone else to fill the bed with.

                                    [–]Adanac23 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    "Fine by me, do whatever you want, I'll still sleep in my bed." while she sleeps in a separate room....

                                    To me that is the ultimate max level of beta bux. I called her on her bullshit told her that i wasn't going to allow separate bedrooms ever not even for one night. She was clearly bluffing and trying to just piss me off or she would not have come crawling back

                                    [–]CoolStoryClub 17 points18 points  (15 children)

                                    I am confused. You won't sleep in the couch but you don't mind paying for a hotel to sleep there?

                                    [–]pl231 6 points7 points  (5 children)

                                    yeah that seems silly and it pretty much establishes her getting to stay in the house while you don't if divorce is actually going to happen.

                                    [–]pachan 24 points25 points  (3 children)

                                    he set the rule/ boundery that a married couple sleeps together in the same bed and not in seperate rooms as if they are roomates. she would have to be commited to the marriage and not play these games and push him away if she wants to stay with him.

                                    aslo: it worked. in the end its all that matters.

                                    [–]sigmared82 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                    It's a married version of a soft next. Sometimes in marriages, especially where the man has been very beta/BP for a long time, or if she's a borderline, this kind of nuclear dread is necessary to reset the frame. If it doesn't work, probably time to file divorce anyway.

                                    Edit: words...

                                    [–]BiggDanTeague 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                    This is great experience to share.

                                    [–]zephyrprime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    Telling her you would leave in for a hotel later doesn't make sense to me. How is that "staying calm"? It seems like a wild over reaction to me. I would have thought it would have been a victory for her if you actually had carried through with your threat. I think that just saying you are going to bed would be the best course of action since that is normally what you would do in a more normal situation. I would also call her out on her immaturity of wanting to sleep in the guest room because she is so disturbed by the argument.

                                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                    To me the only thing worse then a husband being banned to the couch is a married couple sleeping in different rooms.

                                    I think context is important. My wife and I sleep in different rooms because we both find it uncomfortable to share a bed with someone unless it is the size of two California Kings side by side. We still have sex on average 4-5x a week and this has been for 5 years. I'd say 95% or separate bedrooms for spouses don't work as well as mien does....

                                    [–]TheRealMouseRat 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                    I have always wondered this, what right does a women have to decide if you can't sleep in your own bed or not?

                                    [–]Angry_Bald_Guy 9 points10 points  (0 children)

                                    I told mine try it and I will put the fucking couch on the bed.

                                    [–]bama79rolltide 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                    I was married before, and I never once took the couch. Never.

                                    [–][deleted] 35 points36 points  (8 children)

                                    This recently happened to us (female here). We got into a bit of a rough patch, he informed me this was our bed he was going to sleep in it and I could leave if I wanted. I don't know what else to say other than I was fucking turned on. Also, that let me know to never ask him to leave the bed again. I've learned not to escalate with him because he maintains himself so well, that I always end up looking like a moron. He never says I'm being stupid just waits for me to come around and admit it. This is TRP amirite :) anyway, more husbands need to take this approach.

                                    [–]SgtTRP 20 points21 points  (1 child)

                                    he informed me this was our bed he was going to sleep in it and I could leave if I wanted ... I was fucking turned on

                                    AF/BB confirmed.

                                    I've learned not to escalate with him because he maintains himself

                                    Frame confirmed.

                                    You, my lady, are a lucky woman.

                                    [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                                    ..I remind myself of that everyday. :)

                                    [–]the_red_scimitar 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                                    Thanks. You're a gem for even being aware of this.

                                    [–]anidealistmind 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                                    Or you could have never taken that approach in the first place. If I'm pissed at my husband I usually go to another place if I wanna be alone. I don't bother telling him to go anywhere (bc that's just rude to anyone let alone your partner) so therefore I take myself to the living room. I don't end up spending the night there anyways since my husband either comes to talk to me to resolve it or I do. Collaboration and treating someone how you want to be treated is how to make a marriage last.

                                    [–]Movonnow 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                                    It's like an old simpson's episode I saw years ago :

                                    Marge is angry at homer. Homer says "I know you're mad at me. I would understand if you slept on the couch".

                                    [–]bluedrygrass 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                    Nice, but in general homer simpson is like the epitope of blue pill larvae. Homer is everything you shouldn't be as a man.

                                    [–]lokibali 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                                    Im going on 20 years of marriage, not once have I even considered going to sleep on the couch. She has had to sleep on it a couple of times, not in a long time though...

                                    [–]TrimHer 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                    This is one of those things that you don't cave to, EVER. It is an unbreakable rule, because once you break it, you're on a steep, slippery slope. Same with asking/begging for sex.

                                    [–]UnknowablePariah 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                                    A guy I know told me a story about when he was a newlywed. They had a fight as newlyweds do and she told him to sleep on the couch. Not thinking about it he settled onto the couch but then he started to think very similar to OP. This was his house. He was the one working a construction job everyday to pay for it and feed the family. That was his room. So he got up from the couch went to the bedroom door and kicked it in. Then got into bed without saying a word. She never tried to tell him to sleep on the couch again.

                                    [–]www777com 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                    Another one I hear is when the guy spent hours trying to diffuse his upset wife/girlfriend because she had a dream of him cheating on her--hours! Every time I was in this situation, I saw it as an opportunity to have fun teasing her. And it lasted as long as the teasing--five minutes.

                                    [–]2 Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                    Damn right. It's my bed, if she doesn't like it she can sleep on the floor or couch. The only times I've slept other than in my bed was when I fell asleep there, and when my lungs were fucked up a couple years ago and I couldn't walk upstairs. If the bitch thinks she can kick me out of my bed, she is delusional.

                                    [–]jpepper07 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                    This has been my approach since the start of my relationships. They usually end up crying in bed til they can't handle it no more and they head to the couch eventually. Sometimes they come back. Usually pretty annoying because I am trying to sleep. I got work in the morning and no time for this shit.

                                    [–]choomguy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                    I sleep wherever the fuck I want.

                                    [–]shootinthegym 4 points5 points  (3 children)

                                    I agree but I like to sleep on the couch at least twice a week just because she moves too much.

                                    [–]dandeezy 23 points24 points  (1 child)

                                    important thing is you did what you wanted and weren't forced too. and don't change what you want. don't lie to yourself. "I like the couch anyway" if every time you sleep on it you get back pain.

                                    [–]tallwheel 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                    He should just buy a second bed.

                                    [–]red_gerb 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    wait till she starts snoring. your count will rise. I swore it couldn't happen, yet here it is.

                                    [–]Anderfail 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                    Only time I sleep elsewhere is when my wife is sick and I don't want to get what she has. Otherwise, nope not leaving my bed.

                                    [–]fnordsnord[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                    Well, yeah. That's a different matter all together. When EITHER of us is sick, the healthy one takes the couch. 3 out of 4 times we manage to avoid passing the bug.

                                    [–]dancingwithcats 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                    My wife knows better. If she doesn't want to sleep in the same bed for some reason, which is a very rare occurrence over our 17+ year marriage, she goes to the guest room. When she makes more money than I do (never going to happen) she can dictate where I sleep.

                                    [–]SuperMike83 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                    This is something my dad taught me growing up. Great advice, never once has a woman taken me up on it and slept on the couch. They always seem to have a sudden attitude adjustment instead...

                                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    Totally agree. Even in my BP days I still thought this was insane. "You mean she's gonna kick you out of YOUR bed that YOU bought with the money from YOUR hard work?"

                                    Also: NEVER, EVER let a woman kick you out of your own house, even if she wants a divorce. If you paid for it, then tell her that SHE can get the fuck out or live with you in hell. You worked your ass off for that place, so stand your fucking ground.

                                    [–]4_YRT 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                                    when you told her that, did she cry? If she did, how did you react to that?

                                    [–]fnordsnord[S] 28 points29 points  (2 children)

                                    Nah - it wasn't a real fight by any means. It was a mild disagreement about some petty thing on TV or in the news. She wasn't nearly wound up to start into High Drama.

                                    She blinked and said something like, "Really?"

                                    My response, "You'll always be welcome in my bed. It's not like I'm gonna throw you out."


                                    [–]reddit_already 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    Excellent story. It took me 15 years to get this one right. The first time I refused to leave, wife was surprised. I said with amusement, "I'm not the one upset. If you don't want to be here, you can be the one to take the couch."

                                    (About any continuation into a pattern of sleeping in separate bedrooms, I'd address it once that became apparent, once it becomes a separate issue. No need to address the issue before it's ever an issue. That sounds too beta).

                                    [–]HalfWayInn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    Well said, what she is going to do? Nothing, provably make a good breakfast next morning.

                                    [–]loddfavne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    I watched one episode of Kardashians where the wife in the house was unhappy with the father. Mr. Kardashian agreed to sleep seperately. Except he didn't sleep on the couch. He went into the garage and installed a huge inflatable bed and made himself pretty cozy. The episode ended with the wife coming into his garage asking to sleep in his bed. There was probably some redpill-logic behind his actions.

                                    [–]babybelly 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                    what do you do if your wife brings the money home?

                                    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                    When a man is the only one bringing money home what control does he have over his wife? If the wife is the one bringing the money then she should have the same control over the husband. If both bring similar amounts, they share.

                                    [–]1KyfhoMyoba 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                    80% of the time, you get a divorce.

                                    True fact.

                                    [–]Matsew 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    suggested I straighten up or I'd be sleeping on the couch

                                    the nerve

                                    kinda common sense to an RPer though

                                    [–]JojoRogers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    This is best simple advice to give to men thinking about marriage. 15 years and I have slept in the guest room a few times because the wife was sick and I didn't want to catch it.

                                    It all comes down to not giving into the idea that she is ever entitled to anything just because she is a woman.

                                    Mad at me for some reason and don't want to share the bed? Fine I'm sleeping in it go find somewhere else.

                                    Try and pull some kind of rant because I bought a brand name you don't like? Don't ever expect me to help with picking it up again.

                                    Keep calling me to whine about a problem I can do nothing about till I'm home in a few days? Expect me to tell you that it's obviously incredibly important since it bothers you that much, and I expect you to take care of it NOW. Don't wait till I get home, go fix it since it's obviously so urgent you feel the need to call and "be concerned" 3 times in 6 hours. (saw that happen to a friend a few weeks back when he was visiting for the weekend)

                                    Most important establish this stuff EARLY. I had told my wife long before we got married I'd never sleep on the couch. If you see some example of Beta behavior in movies/real life make sure you point it out to her and comment "You know if you ever expect me to do/act like that your crazy right?"

                                    A good LTR/marriage is founded by making sure this stuff is part of things while you are dating.

                                    [–]TekkomanKingz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    We don't have a couch so there's that...