top 200 commentsshow all 277

[–][deleted] 258 points259 points  (68 children)

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Women are not evil. They are human beings. They are flawed. Stop pointing at bad things they do and say "Seee?!! They all do this!!" (a lot of posts here). Yeah.. and? So what. You put them on a super beautiful human pedestal and they proved you wrong. That's your fault. Sorry that society told you otherwise. Society says a lot of wrong shit. Suck it up, learn, and try again.

This is TRP in a nutshell. I think it's fine to post AWALT reminders every now and then though, no harm done unless it goes completely rampant. As long as the emphasis is that women aren't broken, they are simply different than what you thought before TRP and you must adapt to it.

Good read, hope this sub keeps you motivated and things work out for you.

[–]spaceman2121 23 points24 points  (1 child)

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You know what's the best way to work this out?

Look at the woman you're in a serious relationship with. Then think of them as a man. Then imagine starting a business with them.

Honestly, of all my friends, I can count only 1 or 2 who I trust enough to go into business with. Most don't have the drive, the ambition, the talent, or even my trust.

And that's okay. That's how society functions. You aren't supposed to have dozens of awesome friends. Nor are you supposed to meet dozens of awesome women in your life. Just like you get one best friend, you get, at most (if you're lucky), one woman you can be with all your life.

[–]genericusername80 81 points82 points  (33 children)

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/r/mensrights is even worse for that. They're starting to embrace victim politics in the same way that feminists do. Good for people to drop reminders that power and success doesn't come out of complaining and finger pointing.

[–]1whatsazipper 35 points36 points  (3 children)

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It works for feminists because enough people default to White Knighting, protecting women, and absolving them of accountability.

It doesn't work for mensrights because no one cares about men, and men behaving like a weak victim means everyone else can destroy them. Real men defend themselves and protect their own interests.

[–]Sherlock--Holmes 3 points4 points  (2 children)

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no one cares about men

There are almost 100,000 people in that group who care.

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (1 child)

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But they're trying to change the world to accommodate them. We are changing ourselves to accommodate the world.

[–]17 Endorsed Contributortrudatness 63 points64 points  (23 children)

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That sub reads like a parody of feminism, only with the genders reversed.

Half the posters are special snowflakes victims and the other half are fully aware of the parody and are shoving it in the faces of feminists.

Its a passive aggressive diatribe, but it does seem to work as a means of adding contrast to feminist bullshit.

TRP is about looking inward. MRA looks outward. There is purpose in both.

[–]genericusername80 13 points14 points  (19 children)

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Their favorite line is "imagine if the genders were reversed." Ok, we get it, there are double standards. It might have something to do with the fact that men and women are different. Now shut the fuck up.

[–]17 Endorsed Contributortrudatness 45 points46 points  (17 children)

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I can accept different, but feminists want their cake and to eat it too.

They want all the privilege without any personal responsibility - the point where the rights of men become heavily infringed.

A line has to be drawn somewhere.

[–]AlchemyPhoenix 10 points11 points  (0 children)

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Honestly, though, if you could have it both ways, wouldn't you want to too? Wouldn't you love to live in a world where you get to bang hot chicks all the time with no responsibility, but then they also pay for their own dates and throw themselves in front of danger to save your life? It's immature to expect that you'll get everything in life, but I really don't blame women for trying.

[–]genericusername80 22 points23 points  (11 children)

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Yes, but you won't win by fighting them with their own tactics. The pity party works for feminists because they are women. No one gives a shit about a pity seeking man.

[–]novicebater 14 points15 points  (1 child)

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I don't think men can make appeals to emotion since they don't receive much sympathy.

Pointing out a double standard is an appeal to logic, which as best I can tell is the only viable strategy.

[–]1PaulRivers10 11 points12 points  (5 children)

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Their favorite line is "imagine if the genders were reversed." Ok, we get it, there are double standards. It might have something to do with the fact that men and women are different. Now shut the fuck up.

Yes, but you won't win by fighting them with their own tactics. The pity party works for feminists because they are women. No one gives a shit about a pity seeking man.

I don't agree.

A lot of their power comes from their appearance that they are thinking and caring about everyone. When they're the only people talking, more and more it becomes "the truth", so matter how absurd their claims are.

Feminism doesn't have nearly as much power if everyone sees them for what they are - a group trying to gain more and more power, often at the expense of men.

It's not really that society is going to turn around and start caring about men, it's more of society going "oh look, yet another overinflated and manipulated statistic" when feminists makes claims like that women make 77% of what men do.

[–]genericusername80 9 points10 points  (4 children)

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Yea, and I think things like debunking the wage gap myth or debunking claims of "rape culture" are the most effective way to combat this. Although it might be true, arguing "male unemployment is higher than female unemployment" will not earn a shred of political leverage. I prefer the idea of just stopping and in some cases pushing back feminism where it encroaches on our rights as opposed to greeting it with some male version of feminism.

I just think that attacking the excesses of feminism is a more successful and popular strategy than saying "well look how bad men have it!" It's hard for a movement to do both simultaneously as it tends to be inherently hypocritical to attack their victimization politics if you are simultaneously advancing your own.

[–]1PaulRivers10 4 points5 points  (3 children)

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Yea, and I think things like debunking the wage gap myth or debunking claims of "rape culture" are the most effective way to combat this. Although it might be true, arguing "male unemployment is higher than female unemployment" will not earn a shred of political leverage. I prefer the idea of just stopping and in some cases pushing back feminism where it encroaches on our rights as opposed to greeting it with some male version of feminism.

I agree.

I just think that attacking the excesses of feminism is a more successful and popular strategy than saying "well look how bad men have it!" It's hard for a movement to do both simultaneously as it tends to be inherently hypocritical to attack their victimization politics if you are simultaneously advancing your own.

I agree as well.

I don't think there's a place for men to do the "victim complex" crap - and frankly I don't want to. I saw what it did to women to grow up with her source of power being a victim, and it fucks them over. More powerful, but they can't enjoy that power because they're depressed, have an eating disorder, etc etc. It's terrible.

And I think victim hysteria like "OMG men are being cirucumsized in the US!" is a bunch of crap as well.

I do think there's a place to push back on things like how men are 3 times more likely to be murdered, multiple times more likely to be homeless, etc. There's a difference between "bleeding heart victim complex" vs "men have specific advantages and disadvantages".

[–]Overkillengine 6 points7 points  (1 child)

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Activism feminist style won't work for men because you have to have something the people in power want. Men already provide their productivity to society so the only way is for enough individuals to check out and only produce the minimum for personal survival and gratification.

[–]17 Endorsed Contributortrudatness 10 points11 points  (0 children)

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I think the parody part is at the very least entertaining.

[–]Sherlock--Holmes 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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Now shut the fuck up.

Women actively work to erase the double-standards, unless of course they're a benefit to women. And the way they do it is by building large coalitions of powerful groups. It all started by talking about it. I for one applaud men for taking that bold leap.

[–]SteelChicken 8 points9 points  (0 children)

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When divorce rape stops, then maybe it will be a true statement.

[–]ss4james_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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Starting? Theyve been like that for years.

[–]1dick-opotamus 28 points29 points  (0 children)

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Brilliant! This is what makes the red pill more than feminism's counterpart. Accept reality and adapt.

[–]1 MMachiavellianRed[M] 35 points36 points  (18 children)

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Depends on what your definition of broken is.

For example, if you think that someones personality and reasoning being infinitely susceptible to major changes based purely on one's hypersensitivity to their surroundings; thus altering their emotional state to a point of altered personality, to the extent that it undermines any foundations put in place in the long term (such as marriage, mortgage, kids etc) and that such a person needs constant authority to be kept in line to avoid flying off the deep end like an out of control child is some form of "broken", then yeah, you could argue women are fundamentally broken. However giving up on them because of that won't bring you happiness, learning to accept this is how women are and how to manage their craziness is the solution to happiness.

Of course we don't want to go around saying "women are so fucked up you may as well not bother" that won't solve anything, we can't change how fucked up they are all we can do is manage it and learn how to "play the system" to our advantage, hence shit like dread game, so instead of going all nihilistic about it, I reiterate this: all bitches are crazy, just how crazy depends on the individual, there are ways to minimize the crazy, there are also red flags to look out for that indicate crazy on a level you don't want to even manage the girl, she's too toxic (short list: gaslighting, rape accusations/stories, sexual/domestic abuse, compulsive lying, manipulative for the sake of being manipulative, likes horses, dyes her hair red, has any mental disorder, has seen shrinks, takes antidepressants/happy pills, has been in an asylum, is extremely promiscuous, is into deviant sexual acts, is sadistic, has a high sexual partner count etc.) however no matter who the woman is, you will never eradicate it completely.

Women with hot bodies and the minds of men don't exist, you have to manage their crazy to get the best of them. When beta men make this cliched self-detrimental joke that nobody ever laughs at "I'm just happy she puts up with me" I laugh, men are fucking easy, in terms of dealing with crazy the dynamic is the total opposite. Even the most submissive and passive women have this capability to betray you in a heartbeat due to their "in the moment" emotions, if you're losing control of your life and by extension, her and another man enters scene, you're fucked. Whether its a boom time or a bust she still needs constant boundaries, guidance, authority and all the rest of it - which is a full time job that gives no fucks for how you feel or where your head is at, in the words of the late and great Patrice o' Neal "you never get to just love a bitch, you always have to MANAGE her"

If you accept crazy as how women are, just to differing levels depending on the woman in question, and learn to manage that craziness, you'll do fine. But if you correlate crazy with broken, then yeah, women are massively flawed, so much so you could say they're broken and to remain functional/stable they need a VERY STRONG MAN who won't take any shit and will not hesitate to give them a mental or verbal slap when they act out of line (and oh boy, trust me, they will.) This is why we always say treat them like the most responsible teenager in the house, if you treat them like an equal you will have problems, because you're not equal no how much you wish it (lord knows it would make all men's lives easier if they could rely on women not to test them and be more rational, but men are burdened with leadership if they want to sustain a happy functional relationship with any one woman), however unfortunately they are too emotionally susceptible and volatile to be equal when it comes to decision making and taking charge, you take an equalist position and you set yourself up for failure because your ideals are not compatible with female nature. There are probably some exceptions out there with some odd couple with aspergers or some random shit but who cares about that, we're looking at average typical people here.

Great post btw OP, stickied it.

[–]RPModulator 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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someones personality and reasoning being infinitely susceptible to major changes based purely on one's hypersensitivity to their surroundings

Huh, this statement struck me as being a near-perfect description of a chaotic system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

From the link:

Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions ... Small differences in initial conditions ... yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general.

[–]Johnny_Shades 4 points5 points  (9 children)

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Wait is that "likes horses" part for real?

[–]1 MMachiavellianRed 8 points9 points  (1 child)

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Yeah, for some reason women who have an obsession with horses turn out to be mental. I don't really get it either.

[–]1KyfhoMyoba 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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I have never really experienced this first hand, but I've heard it from so many, many, many guys that I will take it as gospel. And it makes sense, too.

[–]variableLt 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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I would add that all women who just love animals a bit too much fall into this bucket as well. Signs of these are, they need to have a pet, they talk more about animals than people, they are hostile towards strangers for no apparent reason and are usually vegan. Not vegetarian, vegan.

Two IRL experiences confirm this to me.

[–]1ThumpNuts 3 points4 points  (1 child)

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Can confirm. My wife wants a horse.

[–]1 MMachiavellianRed 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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So the horse is a manifestation of the craziness with the horse being the symptom rather than the cause... ahh...

[–]JihadDerp 9 points10 points  (0 children)

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Girls who like horses are usually nuts.

[–]1independentmale 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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Yeah, my crazy, mentally unbalanced BPD ex was also horse crazy.

[–]jazzbowackson 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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I was thinking the same thing, like where can I find out what the fuck that means...

[–]vindictivevanity 7 points8 points  (0 children)

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Between you and OP, you guys are stating to make a lot of sense..

[–]LoveForSail 2 points3 points  (2 children)

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BTW I fucking love reading your long sentences!

[–]1 MMachiavellianRed 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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Poe's law - sarcasm or no?

[–]LoveForSail 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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  • sarcasm or no?

no

[–]PlebDestroyer 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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That first paragraph tho...you deserve gold.

edit: just fiished reading...dude, you summed up women and trp perfectly.

[–]-SoItGoes 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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We should have that in the sidebar, or some shit. I don't know.

[–]1KyfhoMyoba 23 points24 points  (5 children)

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I can always tell the haters from the true RPers; the haters view hypergamy as a bug, TRPers as a feature.

[–]crestingwave 17 points18 points  (0 children)

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Right? I have no problem with someone wanting to get laid. You can only control your own behavior, your own emotions and expectations. If I'm dating a girl I like and she fucks five other guys, I need to assess how I'm evaluating partners and always make sure I have my feet on the ground. It's the pedestal that drives young TRPers mad. My happiness should never depend on another person.

[–]tsotha 13 points14 points  (3 children)

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Saying it's a feature is probably going a bit far. It's just reality that you need to work with/work around depending on your goals.

[–]1KyfhoMyoba 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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If you 'embrace' it as a feature, you will achieve more than if you don't. It doesn't really matter if the belief is 'true' or not, only if you will be more successful if you hold said belief than if you don't. I may not like the law of gravity when I trip and fall, but bitching about it in ANY way shape or form won't do me any good. It's reality. If I 'embrace' it, I then have the potential to understand it on a deep, instinctual level, and thereby utilize it more easily and more readily. (key word, 'utilize') The Clintons (may they rot in hell for a million billion years next to the Bushes) were absolute masters at utilizing ANY situation to their advantage politically. You simply cannot get to the top of any organization that has a political component without this kind of attitude/mindset.

[–]Clbull 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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It's also why so many people, feminists included' look down upon this community and the whole Red Pill ideology as a whole.

[–]Ralt 48 points49 points  (6 children)

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I've gotten to know many men in my position, or soon to be. The A #1 thing I notice from men putting up with sub-standard behavior... is the overwhelming sentiment of "Well, if I tell her THAT... she will be really pissed, or maybe LEAVE!" If you have that mindset, she has won, and it is over. You just don't know it yet. Women don't want to "win" all the time. You want the woman's respect, not to be her lap dog. This really goes for any relationship. Stand up for yourself, god damnit.

This is the #1 thing I see most of my friends who aren't involved in masculine thought failing at. So many men are paralyzed to the point of uselessness at the thought of being alone, of losing what they have. They have a good point though, they win women by luck and circumstance for the most part, and fear their inability to gain another.

Abundance mentality is probably the most important part of TRP because it will allow you to take control of yourself in times like this and risk the relationship. You know what you want, you inform her, and if she doesn't adhere/agree, then good, she wasn't what you wanted anyways, so as we say, next. So many men could live happier lives if they only incorporated this one single portion of TRP.

Wonderfully written post.

[–]wp0016 1 point2 points  (5 children)

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I'm new to trp, and in that sort of a position, but for me the issue wasn't fear but simply not understanding women's instinctive expectations in a relationship. When the message sunk in for me it was like a kick to the gut, I'd been playing such a weak role in the relationship that it's a sign of my partner's poor self esteem that she stuck around this long. Now even in a familiar argument I pick up on totally different causes, and that simply accepting responsibility for some imagined fault is exactly the wrong thing to do.

I still have some fundamental disagreements with trp, but the idea at core it's right, and the early signs of trying to put out in to practice are good.

[–]Sherlock--Holmes 24 points25 points  (6 children)

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Loved this story. I'm 47, never been married, no kids. I was the other guy you spoke about in your story. Not literally, but could have been. Went through my 20's and 30's with many options. Not saying I was mr. perfect, but I got more than a heaping share. Worked out, made good money, and drove nice cars. I lived in a touristy area of Miami, so they came in flocks. My friends and I were there, but I'll tell you this, I never slept with a married woman. Could have many times, but it went against my moral character. Even told them to put their clothes back on and "go home."

Not trying to make an enemy but give you verification of your story. It's the most common unspoken truth that people don't seem to know: Women basically tie you up so they don't become old maids, they get as much security as they can, and they keep one eye out for the ramblin' man alpha they always dreamed about, or for a little pleasure now and then. And if you slip, they open both eyes.

All the years I thought I played it the right way ended up a hollow scaffold of a life. Although I've done a lot, had a lot of fun and beautiful women, I'm not a perfectly happy man either. In the end buddy, you ended up with 3 kids who love and adore you, I got nothing coming up except a corporation, no saplings, only stories of worldly travels that die when I die.

I'd like to listen to you play guitar and hang out with you and buy you a beer one day.

[–]thethirdcoast 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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This is complete 'anecdata,' but my friend's uncle had a healthy kid at 52...if you truly want children of your own it is more than possible.

[–]elevul 1 point2 points  (4 children)

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If you've got money, don't worry and keep making more, because in a couple of decades you'll have the possibility to become immortal.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (35 children)

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In what form do you take TRT (e.g. weekly intramuscular injections?). You say it made a huge difference, what effects did you observe concretely?

[–]raven2000[S] 35 points36 points  (23 children)

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I shoot test cypionate every 3.5 - 4 days... 150mg per shot. I also take HCG and Anastrazole.

Effects: less anxiety was the big one. Back to my old, young self again, basically. More relaxed. Muscles fuller. My deltoids are noticeably rounder. All muscles bigger. Easier to stay lean. Stronger in the gym. Easier to recuperate from workout. Better sleep.

Bad side effects: Acne. Chest and shoulders. Oxy foaming cleaner keeps it in check. A sometimes false sense of Alphaness. Telling a 300 lb ripped dude at the gym to pick up his "fucking dumbbells" when he's done with them... maybe not a smart thing to do.

I go to a local clinic specializing in hormone replacement. A lot of them are quacks... mine happens to be very good.

[–]VelociReactor 56 points57 points  (1 child)

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Seriously though, that guy needs to pickup his fucking dumbbells

[–]nierexy 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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that is the most annoying shit, ever

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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That's indeed enough to see effects, you're on legit TRT, good for you. Often doctors will prescribe anoint-your-balls placebo therapy.

[–]YeaaBuddy 8 points9 points  (6 children)

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Try a "cycle" of accutane at 40mg a day for 4 weeks and I'd be willing to bet this doesn't continue to be a problem.

Friendly mod at /r/steroids, also TRP reviewer. Remember, I doubt that the cause of the 300 lbs. male confrontation was simply the gear, it just makes you more of who you are. Control those emotions, don't blame the gear.

I appreciated your story otherwise, don't forget to hold on to the person you are. Best of luck.

[–]HobKing 6 points7 points  (2 children)

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PSA: There have been class action lawsuits against the makers of Accutane because it has been shown to sometimes cause Ulcerative Colitis and Crohn's Disease. Causation in any single case is unprovable, but one of my friends took Accutane in high school and then got Ulcerative Colitis, which he now lives with many years later, after being essentially perfectly healthy (before and since).

I know Accutane wrecks acne, but given its significant expected side effects and potential long term illness risk, I'd just start someplace else with my acne treatment.

[–]2Axotl 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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I was on accutane for six months, it was without a doubt the best decision of my life so far. I would vouch for it. It did seriously hamper my lifting progress for a while, as my joints were wrecked during the treatment but that was the only serious side-effect I received. Was on 40mg a day.

This was on the NHS, they made me do a blood test every month to ensure my body was handling it well. I strongly recommend speaking to your doctor about it.

[–]YeaaBuddy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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Yes, I would likely agree, because most doctors prescribe it at about 1mg per pound of body weight. Try 40mg, you'll be ok.

[–]Sherlock--Holmes 2 points3 points  (2 children)

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Only as a last resort. A lot of people believe Accutane puts your liver under a lot of stress.

[–]manwhy 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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Perhaps you could lower the test dosage and try something less androgenic and more anabolic, like halo or winny.

[–]elevul 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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halo

Yeah, no, he already takes huge risks on only 300mg test a week, if you put him on halo he'll kill someone.

[–]RPModulator 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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There seem to be a fair number of people here who know at least a bit about this, so I will ask a question: presuming that one has low T, why not just take . . . T, instead of all of this other stuff?

[–]raven2000[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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The HCG and Anastrozole work in tandem with testosterone. HCG keeps your balls alive (to over simplify). The anastrozole keeps your estrogen down (something I had a real problem with at first). You don't take either of these unless you are taking Testosterone.

[–]2 Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 1 point2 points  (4 children)

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You take lots more than I do, I get one shot per month, and its not a mix as far as I know. TRT has made a huge difference for me. The strangest is that I am gaining weight while gaining definition, and I wasn't lifting for a few months. Back in the gym after family shit, and it feels great. Sore as hell right now, but its a good sore. Might as well take advantage, right? I eat a caloric deficit and have gone up fifteen pounds since April. Interesting, they said I would gain some, but not by doing nothing compared to when I work out.

Mine is through the VA, and they check my labs twice a year, I'm doing good for 45.

I've had zero luck with women our age, so I go for the twenty some things and have fun. Over 35 and single, they are exactly how you say, she cheated, divorced, then lies about it. I'm in a small northern Michigan town and the older women here are fat with kids, Meth heads with kids, or hung up on some drunk loser. Thankfully we have a college, which is why I go young. Fresh meat so to speak.

Its interesting being here with the young guys, isn't it?

[–]trpill 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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OP can you tell us a little about the game this guy ran?

What did he do to make her do such a stupid thing?

Was it his game? Was it his looks? Did he gave status? What did he say to her in texts?

[–]TavolettaRossa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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If the acne gets to be an issue for you, try washing the affected areas with a washing up liquid when you're showering.

My back was destroyed when I was coming off a cycle, noticeable benefits within 3 or 4 days and cleared right up.

Remember reading some fella online saying he used Dawn (can't remember where) and it cleared his up so I reckoned I had nothing to lose, not being American that brand wasn't an option for me, I've been using a cheap brand with added Aloe (for "soft hands") ever since, my skin has honestly never been better (it was never great before, it's fantastic now).

[–]i_d_g_a_f 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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Danger & Play has some real good information regarding TRT supplementation for those interested. http://www.dangerandplay.com/trt-testosterone-replacement-therapy/

[–]AnonymousTurtle 4 points5 points  (8 children)

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TRT

Just to add to this. Be careful and have your blood lipid profile checked out. You don't want to have a heart attack 10 years too early.

[–]elevul 5 points6 points  (7 children)

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He's just on TRT, which is low dose, he's not blasting 1g of roids per week...

[–]AnonymousTurtle 6 points7 points  (1 child)

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As with all things you want to look at the cost and benefits. There's next to no cost to having a simple lipid profile done and the benefits are pretty large if there's something wrong. I mean he's not exactly young, so there could be a bit of a predisposition by then for increased LDL and reduced HDL (i.e. high cholesterol).

Moreover, the prescribing guidelines for anastrazole require regular blood checks. If I were OP, I'd want to be safe.

[–]richard84 3 points4 points  (4 children)

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Low dose my ass. He's on 300mg a week. Most people end up with decent levels at 100mg/week, with 200mg/week being the high end which already starts causing side effects (not saying that it isn't worth it, lol). I'm happy for him that he has a doctor with balls, I just started TRT on 100mg a week and I am afraid the doc will eventually tell me "see, your T levels are 600, 100mg is perfect!", but to be realistic he's probably at ~1500 so he needs to keep RBC count and triglycerides in check. Hopefully his doc already knows that he has him on a supraphysiological dose.

[–]fapuffin 17 points18 points  (11 children)

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Thank you. Great post with lots of valuable advice from a real person.

I've gotten to know many men in my position, or soon to be. The A #1 thing I notice from men putting up with sub-standard behavior... is the overwhelming sentiment of "Well, if I tell her THAT... she will be really pissed, or maybe LEAVE!" If you have that mindset, she has won, and it is over.

  • Is there any way to be married and properly have this mindset? She's got you by the balls and can divorce you and take half of your shit. Seems like the only way to have this is to be protected legally from divorce via prenup and in a country with a favorable legal system/view on alimony/child support. I would love it if we could 'solve' this issue, besides just repeating the standard 'do never marry' shit (which may be fair and good advice, but I doubt most guys on TRP really plan on pursing this no-marriage ever plan).

  • Out of curiosity (feel free to PM me if you don't want the info 'public'), what country did you find your new girl in? I'm planning on pursuing a similar approach to you (and not marry a 'westernized' girl).

[–]raven2000[S] 15 points16 points  (4 children)

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I have mixed feelings on marriage now. Very mixed. Ultimate form of expression of love and commitment? Maybe. A surefire way to F up your life if you allow it? Definitely.

Let's just say she is from Europe. Here in the states for work. We met online. My family also is in Europe, so this is something that we had in common early on.

[–]Devinity 0 points1 point  (3 children)

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In your opinion, is online the best way to meet women in your late 30's-early 40's?

[–]raven2000[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

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It was the best way for a dad of three with almost zero spare time.

[–]Devinity 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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Which sites do you find are the best? I've been using OkCupid, but I've only been having one-night-stands with girls the last few months, and haven't really found anybody I'd consider "relationship quality".

[–]raven2000[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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In my area, Match.com seemed to have more "high class" ladies. Again... 90% will not be relationship quality. Have fun!

[–]1PaulRivers10 9 points10 points  (0 children)

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Is there any way to be married and properly have this mindset? She's got you by the balls and can divorce you and take half of your shit. Seems like the only way to have this is to be protected legally from divorce via prenup and in a country with a favorable legal system/view on alimony/child support. I would love it if we could 'solve' this issue, besides just repeating the standard 'do never marry' shit (which may be fair and good advice, but I doubt most guys on TRP really plan on pursing this no-marriage ever plan).

She has a great ability to screw you over. But does she really have the ability to leave and end up with something better?

Once she's past 30, unless she's in the top 1% or so, the carousel goes from an exciting place to a half-broken ride that smells like cigarrettes and people puking. If she has kids it's similar - how many men want to date a single divorced mother?

Have you known divorced couples? I've never seen one where the women ends up better off. My own parents got divorced (thank god) - my mother is still single, my dad dated a woman for a while, now he's been dating someone else for...a decade? While she's not a 10, she's more attractive then my mother is or was.

Have you considered that their constant talk of divorce is cover for a fundamental insecurity that while she can really really hurt you - she's extremely unlikely to end up better off? Sometimes people complain the loudest to cover something up.

[–]tsotha 8 points9 points  (1 child)

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Is there any way to be married and properly have this mindset? She's got you by the balls and can divorce you and take half of your shit.

Placating her will make divorce more likely in the end. How can you not maintain that mindset?

[–]1ThumpNuts 7 points8 points  (1 child)

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I'm on the same trajectory as OP now. I'm married, 40, with 3 kids [including twins - surprise] and I'm in debt way over my head because my wife is used to living well beyond her means. She's basically a spoiled brat - spoiled well before I met her - but I can manage a spoiled brat, thanks to my over-disciplined upbringing.

There are a couple of fundamental difference between me and OP:

  1. If she leaves, she is fucked and I'm getting laid - I know it, and she knows it... cause I make sure she knows it. It's not like I say, "Good luck finding a guy who wants to support 3 kids, I'm going to live the bachelor life and get laid," that's really douchie. I do let her know that if she left I would move on... probably that night. I keep myself in decent shape and I am a very sexual person. "NEXT!" I also let her know that I will move on with my life and be more successful without her. The truth is that my family is holding back my success, because I have responsibilities and we wouldn't survive me taking big risks and having my career fail... not now anyway.

  2. I blow up shit tests routinely. That's not always a good thing, however, but it works for the kind of person I am. I do call out shit tests regularly and I don't let it go quickly. I "communicate" to death. I get deep in the shit and I don't stop until the issue is completely squashed. It's fucking EXHAUSTING, but it comes naturally to me. Needless to say, shit tests are a rarity at this point... it's like aversion therapy. There is no problem that has gone unanalyzed or unresolved -- in a discussion anyway. Resolving things in action are another story. A lot of the time my wife is unwilling to make the sacrifices she knows she needs to make and I let her slide -- and SHE KNOWS I let her slide, and she is grateful. I don't throw it in her face, unless there is a shit test. I usually get an apology after that.

The result of all this is that my wife and I are genuinely happy. I love my kids more than anything and THEY are my top priority. I'm making a sacrifice for her [not banging new pussy, helping with the kids more than I expected and keeping a stable yet unfulfilling career] and she has the family life she always dreamed of [house with a pool, mini-van, dog, 3 kids including twins, vacations, etc...]. Sure, she is spoiled and gets unrealistic and starts to feel entitled, but she is a woman, and women are fucking nuts.

[–]1kick6 18 points19 points  (0 children)

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I've gotten to know many men in my position, or soon to be. The A #1 thing I notice from men putting up with sub-standard behavior... is the overwhelming sentiment of "Well, if I tell her THAT... she will be really pissed, or maybe LEAVE!" If you have that mindset, she has won, and it is over. You just don't know it yet. Women don't want to "win" all the time. You want the woman's respect, not to be her lap dog. This really goes for any relationship. Stand up for yourself, god damnit.

This is so important. You HAVE to be willing to "take the L." You have to be able to risk pissing her off, her leaving...because she certainly is.

[–]sniperhiding 65 points66 points  (2 children)

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Every woman has the capability of doing what my ex did. All of them.

Women are not evil. They are human beings. They are flawed.

I think the problem with using the term AWALT, is that not all the guys here at TRP are on the same page as to what the T in A.W.A.L.T is. All women are like what? OP gets it.

No, not every women is a slut bag with 50 sex partners. Not every woman wants to leave her LTR the second he fails one shit test. But every woman DOES have hypergamy in her. They ALL have the same female imperative. To what degree, that's where you get the differences.

But make no mistake. That conservative Christian girl who was a virgin, who you think would NEVER leave you, if you turn weak as a man over a long period of time, she WILL lose attraction and respect for you, and she WILL be tempted by more attractive men. That biological attraction trigger and female imperative is present in ALL women.

But, don't be afraid to show your appreciation and love for those that deserve it.

This! There is nothing wrong with rewarding a woman, if she has earned it. You do NOT do something nice in hopes of getting her to like you. But you DO reward her when she is a solid woman who acts right, and knows her role. Whether it's a random flowers, cook dinner, or whatever, this is still important.

[–]1KyfhoMyoba 9 points10 points  (1 child)

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Just look at Jessica Simpson. Cheated with at least 4-5 men (Adam Levine, his drummer, Johnny Knoxville, Bam Margera, Dane Cook) while married to Nick Lachey, her first, allegedly.

[–]sniperhiding 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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I didn't know that about her. But again, not surprising.

[–]erpii 16 points17 points  (5 children)

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"She had zero respect for me. I could say 2+2=4, and she would then check with friends and family first to confirm... and then months later tell me "Guess what, honey! You were right! 2+2 = 4!" This made me resent her."

Is there any fix to this? I've been dealing with this for a while now and no matter how many times I call her on it, she keeps on doing it.

[–]raven2000[S] 19 points20 points  (0 children)

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It's symptomatic of a bigger problem. Earn her respect.

[–]vox_veritas 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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I suggest buying her a calculator.

[–]mysterioussydney 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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To gain trust you must be trust worthy. Suck it up and work on your confidence and how you present yourself when talking. They don't care about the content of what you say only how you say it (emotions).

[–]Murmaider 13 points14 points  (0 children)

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+1 for dating a foreign woman.

If you have the time/funds I would suggest traveling. You'll be surprised how well women take care of their men in other places of the world.

[–]juanqunt 11 points12 points  (1 child)

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Amazing story. Thanks for reminding never to take a break from lifting no matter what happens in life. I guess this shows that even if you're a natural alpha, without applying RP principles, you will lose the girl when things go wrong.

[–]17 Endorsed Contributortrudatness 56 points57 points  (11 children)

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Yeah brother any married man can affirm that in today's day and age the loyalty of women extends only to the reach of their immediate wants and needs.

Hypergamy is not always about money, sometimes it's about SMV and tingles. Your ex swung to the next branch without losing a blink of sleep, kids be damned. It was all about her and it will always be.

If a man doesn't keep his masculine identity and remain brazen and confident, a woman will eventually move to whatever makes her feel better in the immediate moment. It will happen every time.

Women are told today that they have every right to divorce. The process is made favorable for that purpose.

They have a rationalization mechanism that completely absolves them instantly of any guilt. They will always feel justified because their feelings are of paramount importance to all other things.

Do not expect loyalty. Do not expect honor. When it is time for a woman to make her choice , she will make it. A marital vow is meaningless. If you expect her to sacrifice for you, you will be disappointed.

They fall with a fascination for you. Do not think they cannot fall with that same fascination for someone else if is suits them - whether they are 18 or 40 - educated or not.

A woman does what she needs to put herself first before all things. You can count on that with certainty. Very precious few act otherwise.

You must adjust or fail.

[–]raven2000[S] 21 points22 points  (4 children)

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"If a man doesn't keep his masculine identity and remain brazen and confident, a woman will eventually move to whatever makes her feel better in the immediate moment. It will happen every time."

You nailed it. Unfortunately... it's true.

[–]ThatCouldBeTrue 9 points10 points  (3 children)

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There are loyal women. My husband takes risks, I tell him my opinion but ultimately he does what he thinks is right. Most of the time he gets it right, but when something goes wrong, we ride the storm. My friends have similar relationships, we aren't radical conservatives either, but our men are worth enduring any low points.

[–]rapreaper 17 points18 points  (2 children)

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He did not mean external low points. He meant low points in the man's behaviour. Your husband may still be maintaining his confidence or at least reassuring you and not being a pussy in front of you. That's what counts not the external low points. The external low points count only when they've gone too low and the entire lifestyle needs to be changed.

[–]ThatCouldBeTrue 5 points6 points  (1 child)

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I get what you mean, but I just wanted to point out that there are women who will see their men through when they've been emasculated for whatever reason. In a strong marriage a man can be a totally broken puss, and a good wife will do whatever it takes to build him back up.

[–]DoesNotMatterAnymore 16 points17 points  (0 children)

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In a strong marriage a man can be a totally broken puss, and a good wife will do whatever it takes to build him back up.

I have a hard time believing that. Especially, when you are a Wife, a Mother, a Money Earner, and you have still have time and energy to build a broken puss back up? I don't want to be too negative, but this is illusional.

[–]loin_fruit 18 points19 points  (5 children)

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All of this right here is more true than I ever realized as of late. This plate just got married. 3 days before wedding I fucked her. Night before wedding she asks me how my day was. Couple nights ago she texts me telling me she misses me and shes coming over Wednesday.

Here I thought this woman was head over heels for this guy, and yet here she is coming over Wednesday.

[–]LuvBeer 9 points10 points  (1 child)

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haha i bet she wants tender lovemaking not

[–]loin_fruit 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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With candles and George Michaels playing of course.

[–]17 Endorsed Contributortrudatness 13 points14 points  (1 child)

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That poor bastard that married that whore.

Don't envy that guy.

[–]loin_fruit 7 points8 points  (0 children)

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Oh I don't. The amount of trust I had in women decreased a lot after this. It's what I needed though.

[–]GC0W30 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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Here I thought this woman was head over heels for this guy, and yet here she is coming over Wednesday.

This doesn't mean she's not head over heels for him, she's just head over heels and a TERRIBLE fucking person. However, a double-digit percentage of women are just as shitty as her.

[–]Fir3start3r 10 points11 points  (5 children)

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Wow, I'm reading myself in your post - we're almost exactly the same. 0_o Was together with my EX for about 20 years, I'm in IT, mid-40s, three kids... Slight differences - I'm not divorced yet but it's looking very much like it and I'm in Western Canada while the Ex and kids are in Eastern Canada living with her 'enabling' mother.

I have been going to Al Anon since everything starting going to shite last Fall. My wife was an active alcoholic for the first 10 years and a, "Dry Drunk" the last 10. Had NO idea there was such a thing a Dry Drunk until last Fall and that's where Al Anon has literally saved my fucking mind. I just knew I was feeling exactly how I felt when she was drinking. Found a great Wed. night men's group with a great bunch of guys to clean up, "My side of the street" and get my shit in order. Did the 12 Step Program. Started putting up personal boundaries and consequences - she didn't like that much. Scratch that, she didn't like it, AT ALL. That was incredibly hard for me to do after finding out I was a co-dependant in the relationship. My Ex is a highly intelligent, very beautiful woman but she never dealt with her past baggage. It ALWAYS came up in the relationship. She was bullied in high school, she was raped, she always had very few friends, was paranoid of everyone like they had some agenda against her, rarely smiled, etc, etc, ad nauseam. Honest to god women, DEAL WITH YOUR SHIT. Men are tired of having to making excuses for you and having to feel like contantly walking on eggshells around you. Broken CPU?? Absofuckinglutely! Some of the shit she pulled NOBODY would have put up with. Why should I??? Why DID I??

Since the courts have decided they could move out of the province, that decision being, "It is what it is"...now it's about me. I tell people, think 'Agent Smith' in the Matrix. This year it's all about ME, ME, ME...
I to am going to hit the gym and actually try out 'juicing' (no not the needle variety...). I've picked up some old hobbies I had forgotten about and used to enjoy. Going to start cycling around more. Getting myself OUT there instead of isolating (very easy to do for me) and letting myself personally errode more than I already have and feeling sorry for myself. I've starting to go on dates with NO expectations. I'm not looking for any relationship at this point. It's just to get back out there and get the hell out of the house and if I enjoy myself at the same time, bonus. Idle hands are the devil's playground, especially if you're just going to play back all those broken tapes in your mind over and over again.

I AM worth it and I WILL find the woman I deserve. I won't be thinking with my dick on this one because it's simply, NOT, WORTH, IT. This may sound extremely selfish at first but look at it like this - In order for me to give my best, I need to BE my best. The kids are young and they'll quickly learn the piece of work their mother is and know the truth of what she truly did some day. She may have them for now but I must prepare myself for what comes down the road should my children really need me. I don't know when that is but until then, I need to be ready if she doesn't crack before that...

[edit some formatting / grammar]

[–]raven2000[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

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Stay strong, brother. I'm here if you need to chat...

[–]Fir3start3r 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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Thanks brother. Not the result I would have wanted it for the kids but then, I didn't make that choice. I have the full support of my family and all my friends and I can sleep at night with a clear conscience.

[–]FinnianWhitefir 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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Good job. Sounds like a lot of what I did also, minus the wife/kids. It was a shock reading books like Codependent No More and No More Mr Nice Guy and having my eyes opened to how unhealthy my motivations and assumptions were. It's scary how you can end up in a "I'm not worth anything, I should sacrifice to make everyones life better".

That group sounds nice. The only similar ACA group I found was all 50+ ladies, all still mired in their issues and drama, and I was confused because I went in with a mentality of "I'm here to fix my shit, I'm going to get healthy, and then I won't need things like this anymore" and that did not fit in with the group.

Good job putting yourself first.

[–]1 Endorsed Contributormordanus 25 points26 points  (2 children)

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"Stop pointing at bad things they do and say "Seee?!! They all do this!!" (a lot of posts here). Yeah.. and? So what. You put them on a super beautiful human pedestal and they proved you wrong."

I think you misunderstand the meaning of those posts. Most people here have not had the life lessons that you have had. A lot of people here have yet to have a serious relationship let alone be betrayed by the person that is supposed to love them the most. Because of your experiences in life you have already learned that women aren't amazing angels sent here to bless us with their presences.

The problem is almost all men have it hardwired into them that women somehow are those angels. We grow up believing that there is going to be someone special to help us walk through life with. To take care of us when we are sick and love us when we are down in life. The posts about how women never live up to that are essential for a lot of us to wake us up and take them off of the pedestal we have put them on. It is also nice to hear stories like that to realize that you aren't alone in thinking women shouldn't be on a pedestal.

I understand that sometimes it gets to be a bit much to hear all the time but some people need to learn that and those posts might be the only way they learn them.

[–]ProductivityMonster 8 points9 points  (0 children)

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yea I actually used to fantasize about literally an angel women helping me through life in college/high school. Good thing I realized it was a fantasy back in med school when my girlfriend at the time who had loved me for 2.5 years straight made my life miserable in my time of need (decision to drop out of med school to pursue a finance/consulting career). In her defense, I did fall on beta behaviors through this very emotionally rough period. She was literally the closest girl I have found to a Red Pill Woman.

AWALT - when your behavior falters (no matter how awesome she had been in the past), she will drop you like a rock. This is not someone you want to get into a legally binding, life-long financial contract (aka marriage) with.

[–]melikeurface 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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Agreed. It's a long process. A fucking long ass one.

[–]EscortSportage 14 points15 points  (0 children)

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cheers for sharing this, thank you sir

[–]19 Endorsed Contributordrrrrrr 7 points8 points  (2 children)

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Awesome story man. The one thing I took away is that it is never too late - AS LONG AS you can point your critical eye inwards and fix your own problems. Once you start blaming people (even when justified ie wife is addicted to shopping and wracking up debts, cheating, etc) you lose the chance to fix what went wrong. Whatever point in life you are at, if you can take responsibility, you can fix it. If you can't, then be prepared to suffer massively until you do.

[–]raven2000[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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You got it. I'm 50% responsible for things that went wrong in the marriage. She's 100% responsible for the affair and how it ended.

[–]lurkernomore99 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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She's 100% to blame for cheating. Was the affair 100% her fault? No.

[–]dreauxx 4 points5 points  (2 children)

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Hey, just wanted to say thanks for sharing the details here, very kind of you. I know I'm much younger (21), but I felt a lot of what you're saying.

After hearing things like this, seeing my parents marriage, and the world around me, all the girls I've dated already..Man, I don't know if I want a god damn thing to do with any of it. You said not to rule out Love..but I feel that I truly am. It isn't due to a lack of confidence either, I'm a very independent, in-shape, and aspiring musician. I've always been a romantic, and I know how to assert myself and still keep a lady pleased. I just feel like times have changed though.. My generation is so fucked up man. T.V., shitty music, and all this other shit has completely reshaped how we view dating and females; and it's fucking stupid. Even if I meet that one girl who gets it, and can be my buddy..she still runs the same chance that any other girl would run. I've told myself and have come to terms with the fact that I'll never marry nor reproduce; because there's just no fucking chance that I'll end up like my dad. I feel like I can do so much more with my life sailing my own ship, no matter how hard it will be. I'll be free to see as many ladies as I'd like and allow myself to, I can work my job with my earnings to myself, and have all my freetime dedicated to my music and fitness. I suppose I paint this picture in my mind, of some sort of self-reliable man that I wish would've been my father..but I know in the end that it'll be a lonely road.

It seems to me, you're fucked either way. You get locked up in one, and no matter what control you have she'll find a way; locks are made to be broken and so are hearts these days. So, you go it alone scoring whatever you can on the side, and your still left with the same empty void you'll have when she's done with you.

I hope I don't sound like a moron, these are just my feelings. Was hoping to get some feedback from a seasoned vet ;) It just seems to me, that keeping them at a safe distance until you need something is the best way to go about it.

Thanks again, and for the record, you sound like a total badass. Glad to hear you've got a new lady and outlook. Wish my pop had that determination. Cheers to you sir.

[–]ProductivityMonster 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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I am in my early 20's and feel the same way. However, I may consider marrying at a later age(ie 40), having no kids, and getting a rock-solid prenup in a state with less sexist marriage laws.

[–]dreauxx 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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I've contemplated the very same! I've figured that by that time, I oughta be worn enough to take the risk. But until then, we shall be free men ;)

[–]ohsweetword 7 points8 points  (3 children)

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As a guy mulling over starting a business.. this is interesting stuff. It's sad how few options men have after they start a family these days.

[–]raven2000[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

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I've known a lot of business owners. They all have one thing in common: a strong wife behind them who encourages and believes in them... and is their strongest supporter. Of course, I knew all of these men because they were clients in SUCCESSFUL businesses.

[–]ohsweetword 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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The guy who was in the same business that I thought about going into said the same thing.

  1. Don't take out a loan to do it.
  2. Don't quit your job to do it.
  3. Make sure your wife is strong and will support you.
  4. Make sure you have cash flow to keep the business running.

I'm single though so haha

[–]Sherlock--Holmes 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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I think you touched on part of the reason for the decline of the U.S. in general. The courts are heavily biased in women's favor when you factor in their inherent options. Trying to start a business often leads to divorce and losing everything. Married men are therefore either scared to take that leap or they're destroyed in mid-leap.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (2 children)

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Don't fuck it up and marry her.

I know too many people as well who has your story then meet someone and say "She's different" and boom 5 years later the same thing.

All marriage should be illegal.

[–]Counter423 12 points13 points  (0 children)

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All marriage should be illegal.

Hahaha. Nice.

[–]raven2000[S] 13 points14 points  (5 children)

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Wow.. thanks so much for the overwhelming response. This is a great group of men.

I've had a few people ask me to expound on the "game" the new guy played so masterfully and how he flipped my wife. I really don't mind talking about it, and in fact find it really fascinating how he took a somewhat cerebral/professional mom of three and morphed into a super slut (for lack of a better term) in a matter of months.

He is/was a player. I don't want to give too much away here (want to remain anonymous), but his profession puts him in touch with a lot of needy females. He's bagged several of them. My wife knew this but still went after him and sacrificed everything, including her family, to be physical with him. That's impressive. But why HIM?

He is a giant of a man. By no means a stereotypical "good looking" guy. Just picture a giant powerlifter guy. Like the guys in the world's strongest man contests who carry refrigerators on their backs. That's him. He juiced to the gills and looks like he's about to stroke out at any minute. In fact, he competes in a specific type of athletic event and at one time was the national champion.

He's not educated. I've read his texts and emails. My 10 year old daughter sounds more coherent. But what he is...is BLUNT.

If he thought it, he said it. If he wanted it, he said "we're doing THIS". Sexual, or otherwise. He made mention of her boobs being deflated and saggy... guess what? Boob job time! Double D's! He mentions she would be good at a particular hobby... she's now committed 110% to that hobby. It's all she talks about.

She would text him and not hear back for a few days. It would drive her nuts. Then he'll suddenly text her while out on dates with other women. The doofus even texted her when he was jerking off to porn! "I'm watching XYZ right now, and this chick looks like you. I've already finished twice." The wife I had, she would've cringed and laughed her butt off at a guy like this. But why the sudden change? Why such a drastic shift?

I think it boils down to two big things:

  1. He told her what to do. She needed guidance and here was this big daddy figure to say "shut up and do this". That gave her security.

  2. He wasn't invested in her. Texting her while on dates. Telling her he wasn't interested in being her boyfriend. He was worried about people finding out about the affair and ruining him, business-wise. But, that didn't stop him from texting and saying he was coming over for a quickie. She was more than willing.

After months of stringing her along and seeing other women, he finally committed 100% to my ex (I had access to some info here not too long ago, so I got to see the relationship build over a year). Watching their texts, I can see where he started to fail. He was apologizing way too much. She was shit-testing him. He now responds immediately too all messages. No other women. She's so happy. She's telling everyone about him. Took him to see the family, too.

I give it another year or two.

There are so many little nuances and side stories at play here. How our male and female friends reacted to the affair. The kids. Work. Infidelity and divorce is just one giant mindfuck, for sure. Also a huge wake-up call.

[–]1KyfhoMyoba 4 points5 points  (1 child)

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He has presented himself as very, very r/selected, her continued involvement and fitness testing has moved him to K/selection and knocked his alpha waaaaaay down. I never cease to be amazed at how often and how easily this can happen. A woman like your ex, a '5' takes a total player who seems to be alpha as fuck, multiple plates, DGAF attitude, completely the AF of AFBB equation, and she turns him into, well, what you were before you woke up and ingested TRP.

[–]variableLt 2 points3 points  (2 children)

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Just for the sake of discussion, how would you rate him, yourself and your wife only by looks, on typical scale 1-10?

[–]raven2000[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

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Hmmm... now? I'd say the ranking goes me (7), him (6), then her (5). Me for the general aesthetics... plus I'm in good, muscular shape. He's much larger than me (I'm 190 he's 280), but he's not a classically good-looking guy. She... she's 40. Not a good 40. She looks like she's had a tough life. She's now built like a linebacker. Not many men find that attractive (I prefer small and feminine). Strangely, all his women have been big and muscular. His last one was on steroids (complete with jawline and adams apple). Hmmmm....

[–]variableLt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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Classical trap. Woman that isn't all that good looking, ensnares you with her charms, which she developed for lacking in pure aesthetics, only to stab you in the back at the earliest opportunity she got while you were busy fixing real life issues - that might or might be not caused by her.

You won't believe how many times this happened. Guys stay alert, always.

[–]level_e11even 11 points12 points  (0 children)

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"Women do not want to win, they want a winner."

  • Patrice O'Neil.

Seems to me you won, inner-game wise. Thanks for sharing.

[–]l0ng_time_lurker 7 points8 points  (1 child)

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As a 42 yr old - I had to give gold for the mature & balanced views upon TRP - sidebar material right there.

[–]catshit69 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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This is really great insight for someone my age [20]. I think you gave a great perspective on your failed marriage which is: even though this may look like her fault, you can't entirely blame the women because, as you said, you lost your edge and I think that can be hard to maintain after years of marriage. I see my father and brother fight to maintain that edge, or dominance, all the time and I've never really understood why but now I can see that it is crucial to the relationship.

Thanks

Edit: Something I wanted to add is that in my fraternity we have a rule regarding committees and activities within the organization. That rule is: if you can't present proof at our chapter meeting each week that you're doing something for the advancement of the fraternity, then you are subject to replacement. I like to implement this in my own life. At the end of everyday think about what you've done to advance yourself. If the answer is nothing then you're doing something wrong. If you aren't improving yourself then you can be replaced by anyone; Friends, and especially women. This isn't news here but I just thought it was appropriate to add in the context that this guy didn't keep improving and lost a lot (if nothing else time) for it.

[–][deleted]  (6 children)

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[deleted]

    [–]db325 4 points5 points  (5 children)

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    If a girl cheats or is disloyal somehow you should say next. Those are red flags bro.

    [–]Wheat-Thins 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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    Your post is not addressing his post at all.

    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

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    [deleted]

      [–]db325 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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      Yeah I see what your saying now. Good point.

      [–]1KyfhoMyoba 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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      Rollo Tomassi of therationalmale.com says it best: Women talk, men do. Demonstrate, don't explicate.

      [–]tallwheel 4 points5 points  (2 children)

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      Don't give up on love. Sure, 90% of the women out there fall into the category of my ex, but there ARE good ones out there.

      I agree with the overall message of this section (don't waste your time with unworthy women), but you lost me a bit with the unicorn part above. Sure, maybe there were red flags with your ex, but it sounds like overall she was a pretty cool partner in the beginning. It was only after your career started to experience turbulence, and you lost your looks and frame that Briffault's law came into play and she did what the vast majority of women would do in that position. In the past there were much higher legal and social barriers to divorce which was pretty much the only thing keeping Briffault's law in check through long and turbulent marriages. (I'm not blaming you at all, since I think you have a right to follow your career dreams whether they prove successful or not, and I think men should have a right to focus on being a good father rather than working out without having to risk losing their familes.)

      The problem is that there really isn't any way to know for sure whether or not any woman will turn out the same as your ex in the future. You could think you have found a unicorn, with no visible red flags to be found, but you will never know her true colors until much later when she has grown tired of the marriage and/or turbulence (financial, etc.) occurs in the marriage.

      Therefore, I think the best takeaway message is that marriage is just far too risky for men in today's world. Any man who chooses to get married nowadays needs to be aware that it will require a constant effort to retain frame and physical attractiveness, and that if you should face turbulence in your career, or if your wife starts making more, then all bets are off.

      [–]raven2000[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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      "The problem is that there really isn't any way to know for sure whether or not any woman will turn out the same as your ex in the future. You could think you have found a unicorn, with no visible red flags to be found, but you will never know her true colors until much later when she has grown tired of the marriage and/or turbulence (financial, etc.) occurs in the marriage."

      Good point... but I'm at the point in life where I say "Yeah, that didn't end well. But, I loved her. I was good to her. When she unplugged, I did too."

      I don't give out my love and devotion based on how I feel they may reciprocate years down the line. I do because at the time they deserve it.

      [–]whoops_fap 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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      She's awesome, but I don't need her.

      Damn straight. Keep up the good work my man.

      [–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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      Now have a long-term girlfriend who you would say is "very red pill". A wonderful person. Yes, she's younger. Yes, she's foreign. (Am I a RP cliche, or what?!).

      Men when looking for a stable LTR are going to find one with qualities that suggest stability. A man in your position (40+) with 3 kids needs stability. Domestic women in North America tend not to have those qualities, particularly if they're from larger population centers where female entitlement is sky high.

      [–]16 Endorsed ContributorGayLubeOil 15 points16 points  (6 children)

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      Anyone who defines their strength by the type of dumbells they lift doesn't even lift. Strength is measured in squats and deadlifts. #brosciencefacts

      [–]1KyfhoMyoba 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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      And how well you do downward dog.

      /sarc off

      [–]godlesspinko 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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      Lots of good advice and anecdotes here, but if you're up for an honest opinion, there's also a lot of bravado and what looks like an inability to see fault in yourself. All I see is half of every story you reference. And the fact that you have so many makes me wonder if you didn't play quite the part you believed you did.

      But that's coming from a late 30s guy with his own triumphs and mistakes of his own, so maybe my criticism of you is a projected criticism of myself. Thanks for your story.

      [–]LukeMooney 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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      •Every woman has the capability of doing what my ex did. All of them. It's up to you to prevent it.

      Most important point for me. Cheers for sharing, congrats on turning your life around, all the best.

      [–]newguy75 12 points13 points  (1 child)

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      Escorts are cheaper and more fun.

      [–]otiswild 11 points12 points  (0 children)

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      Moral of the story:

      DONT GET MARRIED.

      EVER.

      [–]AlmostRP 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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      In line with what you're saying... since I've been meeting new friends, I always go above and beyond to be a good friend. If it isn't returned, I move on. If it is, then BOOM! NEW FRIEND MADDEN STYLE.

      Referring to the unconditional love part, of course.

      [–][deleted]  (5 children)

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      [deleted]

        [–]raven2000[S] 3 points4 points  (4 children)

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        "I'm in a situation now where I took a step back and stopped dating, and am just trying to build up my career and financial security, I don't plan on actively dating again until I hit 40... because honestly it's because I have very little trust in woman and I'm not confident enough yet to hit the dating scene. I still have a lot to learn and am getting there slowly."

        I think that's a very healthy mindset. Bravo to you. If I may give two unsolicited pieces of advice:

        1. Prius owner? Ditch the car. (I had a Prius)
        2. Move out. Get your own place.

        [–]priusowner666 0 points1 point  (3 children)

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        Thanks, I just bought the Prius, it gets 52mpg, won't be paid off for 3 years. As for the other part, it's my apartment, my name on the lease. I've thought of asking her to move out but her portion of the rent pays for the Prius & insurance. If anything I have actually used her to learn more about how I relate to women. She is a 10 in looks and I realized that this is why I keep her around and am so nice to her, but at this point we're honest with each other (if that makes any sense).

        [–]yummyluckycharms 1 point2 points  (2 children)

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        You shouldn't buy cars - but should be leasing them.

        Never buy a depreciating asset

        Second the moving out bit as soon as you can - its hard to date as a guy when you dont have your own place.

        [–]MajorStyles 4 points5 points  (2 children)

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        Sorry to hear that and thanks for sharing. Two years from now, she will be begging to get back into the picture as they so often do.

        1.) The personal trainer is a major no-no in the USA. You gotta go Sharia law on them when they want to go there. It's a no! She goes to the gym with you and it's done together. Period.

        You were on point about drawing the line. That's astute. Tell them what and why and they will respect and even brag about you. Fail to draw the line and someone else's dick will be in her mouth - gauranteed!

        Again, sorry to hear that, man. Sucks major donkey balls.

        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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        Very good advice. Did you know that the Swedish crown princess Victoria married her personal trainer? I rest my case.

        [–]raven2000[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        Who said anything about a personal trainer??

        Okay, he was her personal trainer.

        [–]hepatosplenomegaly 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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        TL;DR Learn from my mistake, do not marry and get a vasectomy

        [–]16 Endorsed ContributorCyralea 3 points4 points  (1 child)

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        I appreciate your sharing this. A lot of men here need to see what the other side of the veil looks like, what to do once the anger has subsided after learning the nature of the world. Your post focuses on the lead up to failure, but the fact that you've kept your head above water is what stuck out to me.

        I want to highlight one thing though. Your woman was both intelligent, accomplished and at one point the prime example of a contented, happy relationship. Sometimes I see posts here with men thinking they simply need to find the "right" girl and that she'll be that way forever outside of independent effort. You really drove home one of the tougher RP realities -- even the most perfect relationship with the most perfect woman will fall apart if you don't maintain your masculinity. You can't afford to be complacent in life.

        [–]raven2000[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        even the most perfect relationship with the most perfect woman will fall apart if you don't maintain your masculinity. You can't afford to be complacent in life.

        And that right there summarizes it perfectly. Took me 40 years to learn.

        [–]isolos 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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        Thank you for your insight. We at /r/marriedredpill could use more input from people like you that have been through all stages of married life.

        [–]scalentorn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        Lots of lessons awaiting to be learned from this post. It's awesome, thank you.

        [–]lloopy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        The details of my experience are different, but my reaction is similar, especially upon reading TRP.

        I didn't understand any of why my wife left me (but now, good riddance) before. I did what I had been told I should do. But that's not what would have kept my marriage whole.

        A little red pill would have.

        [–]priusowner666 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        This is a great post, thank you.

        [–]djvita 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        thanks for the advice, as someone who's parents are more than ready to kick out the house to feel responsibility and to chase my dreams and ambitions, this is pure gold. i've been holding out interacting with women for some time but I'm ready to meet some again (they want grandkids? a girl isn't just gonna fall into my lap!)

        [–]aescetic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        Glad to see you handled this the way you did, a lot of guys would just give up after what she did to you. I definitely agree with what you said about not all women being fucking crazy, and I wish more people on this sub could see it. Like you I've been up front with women on what I want from them and it's been working out great. Thank you for the great post and good luck with everything in the future.

        P.s. You're back in the gym, try out the Get Swole routine on bb.com or The Rock's Hercules routine, they are fantastic.

        [–]duckducklandwhale 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        Good post. So good that this is the type of post that the feminists/the blue pill/socialjustice4women will never cite. This is something theyll never screencap this is something they'll choose to ignore and pretend the evil Red Pill is nothing but misogyny because we're not a safespace that doesnt mind every know and again calling some women bitches, or use analogies of "like da chilllren" and basically cast them under real scrutinous light instead of the women are glorious halo'd angels light. I truly love this subreddit, it's helped me in many ways and I hope that more great stuff stays flowing thru these parts.

        [–]muddynips 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        This is the best thing I've read on this sub in a while. No knock on other posts, this just resonated really well.

        [–]NotAnotherTroll 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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        We need more guys like this and less of the pansies that just don't get it.

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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        [deleted]

          [–]DazPatrick 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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          I'm 26 and pretty much every older guy I've talked to has told me to NEVER get married. They're wives go crazy and start blaming their problems on their husbands. Soon enough, they're with some other chump, and another... It's a sad world for us men. Most of us just want a loving, beautiful companion. But women? They don't know what they fucking want. Nothing in the world will keep them satisfied. It's best just to spin plates and have of options.

          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I cried. Thanks for sharing, my Brother.

          [–]Audball766 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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          This is the most level-headed post I have seen here. I am sorry about your marriage OP, but glad you seem to have met a nice girl. Thank you for sharing your story, not being a dick, enlightening others and pointing out that there are women out there who aren't fucking nuts.

          [–]swallowpls 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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          holllaa man.

          good on you for getting your shit back together.

          im in my 20s and i love reading things like this that grow my wisdom.

          thanks brotha

          [–]Lumberjack1234 6 points7 points  (7 children)

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          I see a lot of guys here hating women. "They are all the same", "they will fuck you up", "They will cheat". And then comes the story, and most of the time they are the same. From my personal experience and from what I read here, there are rarely bad or vile women. Most of the time they are women. And they do what women do. When I read a post of a guy complaining on how badly he was treated, I usually see what mistakes he has done.

          When a kid throws a tantrum at a supermarket, is it fair to hate the kid? No, the parents are to blame. If your dog shits on the carpet every day, do you start hating dogs? No, you should have trained him properly.

          Most of my alpha friends fucked up once in a while. It happens, deal with it. People should learn to assume responsibility and admit they fucked up. Learn from your mistakes, don't blame women. They are what they are and will not change anytime soon.

          OP, very good story. I hope your kids will be ok and that you will be able to keep taking care of them

          [–]JohnGalt316 27 points28 points  (1 child)

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          women are adults and are held accountable for their actions

          [–]1whatsazipper 29 points30 points  (0 children)

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          women are adults and are held accountable for their actions

          They should be held accountable for their actions but for the most part they are not.

          [–]raven2000[S] 11 points12 points  (2 children)

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          "OP, very good story. I hope your kids will be ok and that you will be able to keep taking care of them."

          Thank you. I appreciate it.

          I often say to friends who ask me about the whole debacle... "Honestly, if it were just me and her, this woulda been the easiest divorce in the world. But, with kids, it just got way more horrible and sad."

          Watching your kids' innocence fly out the window after they're mom says to them "Mommy is going to move to another house... you will come see me there sometimes"... that was tough. It was a year ago, but feels like yesterday. Watching your six year old boy sit in stunned silence and then scream like somebody shot him... It was that day that the switch flipped and I became a man again.

          [–]1KyfhoMyoba 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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          Watching your six year old boy sit in stunned silence and then scream like somebody shot him... It was that day that the switch flipped and I became a man again.

          What. A. Cunt. (your ex, I mean.)

          [–]Sherlock--Holmes 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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          That's a testament to how good of a dad you are.

          [–]-wabi-sabi- 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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          Forgive yourself. Realize that you are only human and you fucked up, but you also have a shit ton of power to make yourself happy and to learn. You are empowered by your failure (it was a cosmic lesson) not defeated by it.

          [–]theJFKshow 1 point2 points  (3 children)

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          Powerful story. Glad you're in a better place now.

          Question. How do you think having children affected your marriage? It seemed to become shaky right around fatherhood. Debt, stress, etc. I'm sure you love your kids, but do you wish you waited a few years? Or avoided children all together? Or were they not an issue at all?

          Many people in this thread are blaming marriage, but I'm not convinced that's the only issue.

          [–]raven2000[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

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          The kids caused major stress, for sure. They always do. I love them and wouldn't trade them for anything. I've been blessed with three great ones.

          If I'm being honest, my "selfish" decision to go the entrepreneur route is what doomed the marriage. Not the kids.

          [–]divalible 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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          Good post man, this is just an old dude handing down knowledge. There is a lot of hatred in redpill. Basically its a bunch of dude who don't want to partake in the mating 'game' (and it is a game) and then get mad at women. Most dudes really need help and psychological counselling here.

          Nice post Raven 2000.

          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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          This is the best post i've ever read on this subreddit. It's 315 am and i have work at 7, but i will stay up all night thinking about this.

          [–]14to4 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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          I'll have to print this OP out and save it for when I'm really constipated.

          [–]Gstreetshit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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          They have boobies and makes us feel awesome, but they're fucking nuts.

          Not saying I've roped a unicorn or anything. But this line right here is fucking spot on. They are fucking crazy.

          The "unicorn" I speak of, she verbally and loudly acknowledges that women are fucking nuts. She knows when she is being nuts sometimes and can stop herself.

          With all that being said. That doesn't mean she isn't a slave to her emotions. She fucking is, most def.

          So even if you think you have found the perfect unicorn in all its snowflake shitting glory, be advised that you are mistaken.

          Generally speaking we are out fucking gunned in the social dynamics area unless you are pretty adept by default

          Think of the most alpha guy you know in your life. The average 5/10 chick has a comparable social IQ right out of the box.

          You have to be pretty well read to even compete without getting destroyed emotionally, financially, all of them at the same time, plus some other shit I can't think of at the moment.

          So be on guard at all times. Now go spread dat dick around

          [–][deleted]  (4 children)

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          [deleted]

            [–]shadowq8 1 point2 points  (3 children)

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            I resubscribed just to respond to your comment. What

            the

            fuck

            are

            you

            talking about ?

            [–]AlmostRP 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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            I like how your latest relationship is built on honesty. You stop pretending about.... everything.... and start being honest about shit that matters.

            [–]ColdEiric -1 points0 points  (1 child)

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            Remove the TL/DR.

            We have piles of books which we recommend to each other, but we do no expect each other to simply read a short text? And if you claim you need the TL/DR, then why don't you start skimming texts? Haven't you seen the same thing before?

            [–]cascadecombo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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            Tl:DR is for people to check to see if they even want to see the story. Just like nearly all books have a brief summary at the end. If you like them or not they are important.

            I read OP's post before even seeing the TL:DR but, those things exist for an important reason.