all 146 comments

[–]stoicly_whimsical 46 points47 points  (18 children)

An aside I noticed the little lie with #3 that the tickets were free.

How are you leading her on if you thought it was a friendly outing, if she didn't hide her intentions and it was clear how much time and money she was investing it may have clicked for you.

You weren't to know she was treating you, reminds me a bit of the oft dragged out nice guy feminst peeve that they aren't being honest with their intentions.

She was a Nice Girl™℠®©

[–]yeahweewee 21 points22 points  (3 children)

except if she was attractive, being a "Nice Girl" would be a huge turn on

shes probably ugly

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]2asd1100 5 points6 points  (10 children)

    can we not be retardedly naive?

    People have intentions, there is not gratuitous waste of effort.

    At the very least he was a escort to for her, but considering the "free" tickets there had to be something more.

    [–]mchlyxhn 6 points7 points  (7 children)

    Willful ignorance isn't naivety. Any decent guy who's had a girl interested can see it as clear as a blue sky. Thus the "orbiter" term. You don't like someone in that way but they do nice shit for you all the time so why throw that away? It works doubly well for guys, provided that you don't slip up and fuck the bitch. Girls are exceptionally reluctant to be forward with their intentions, so if they fall for a guy they're doubly blue pill in their actions.

    All this indoctrination by movies makes them think one day the good looking guy they're orbiting around will wake up and fall head over heels, when in truth it'll probably end up like a horror movie where the girl a) kills herself, b) kills the man, c) seeks out a witch to procure a love potion which exacts terrible vengeance on the couple, or the real horror for women, d) she finds out that he loves another woman and it crushes her poor little nice girl heart.

    [–]2asd1100 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    You don't like someone in that way but they do nice shit for you all the time so why throw that away?

    I am not arguing to trow that away. My point was, let's not make shit up or be naive.

    Girls are exceptionally reluctant to be forward with their intentions, so if they fall for a guy they're doubly blue pill in their actions.

    Not really, at a instinctual level if you trigger them even the most shy of bookworms will involuntarily grind on you just because it makes her feel something. The shyness comes only when they try to make a voluntary game plan, and we all know just how good women are to keeping to plans. That is the point where you should take notice and define the terms of the relationship because leaving it up in the air is just pointless and reeks of indecisiveness(not for her, but for you and any other girls watching)

    All this indoctrination by movies makes them think one day the good looking guy they're orbiting around will wake up and fall head over heels,

    what the fuck? when does that happen

    a) kills herself, b) kills the man, c) seeks out a witch to procure a love potion which exacts terrible vengeance on the couple, or the real horror for women,

    damn, that guy dodged a bullet

    d) she finds out that he loves another woman and it crushes her poor little nice girl heart.

    or proposes a to be his mistress and or third wheel if she is hot enough.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children)

    You don't like someone in that way but they do nice shit for you all the time so why throw that away?

    If they're doing it because they like you in a more than friends way and they're really going far with it then it can be kind of a dick move in my opinion if you know what's going on.

    [–]mchlyxhn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I agree, it's a dick move. It takes a certain amount of hamstering to justify using someone like that. I'm explaining it from the "I'm going to keep my orbiter" point of view.

    [–]Diarrhea_Van_Frank 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I'm friends with a girl who is in love with me. She's expressed this to me and I've expressed my disinterest in pursuing anything beyond a platonic friendship with her. The way I see it, after that it's not on my shoulders to tell her no when she pays for me when we hang out or when she buys nice shit for me. If she wants to continue to do that after I've made it clear that there will be nothing romantic between us, that's her prerogative. I might as well enjoy the benefits while they last.

    [–]bluedrygrass -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

    It's a dick move, like the ones xomynxz do. So it's really equal, and there's nothing wrong in it.

    [–]SwissPablo 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    There's no such thing as a free lunch.

    [–]Darft 3 points4 points  (2 children)

    Completely agreed, she was the one who led him on telling him it was free tickets like it was nothing special.

    [–]Ulquiorra_Schiffer 10 points11 points  (1 child)

    The mentality she had would probably be along the lines of "If I tell him I bought the tickets, I'll put him in an awkward spot if he doesn't want to go. If I tell him I got them for free, he'll probably think that I'm really nice, which is what guys want, and I thought of him first so I'm also giving him hintstm. It also lets me have plausible deniability 'oh I don't really like you like that' if he rejects me"

    I used to think the same thoughts when I was blue pill.

    [–]Darft 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Yeah and this method is good, if you wanna find out if the other is interested in you or not, where she went wrong was when she told him about the tickets not being free.

    She should be happy that at least she had a shot. She tried and now she can move on.

    [–]monsieurhire2 46 points47 points  (9 children)

    What you say is true, but it still works that way with guy friends too. Guys use each other all the time.

    It's all about providing value. If you are perceived as providing value to your male friends and vice versa, there is "equality," regardless of the truth of the matter. If you are perceived as a value leech, you'll get dropped, but also, if you give of yourself a lot, you can also get taken advantage of and used by value leeches.

    You can test for reciprocity, but often times people will reciprocate on small gestures, then leave you hanging high and dry on larger ones, even if you've already done something big for them. In fact, many people are Machiavellian in this respect, freely accepting as much as they can, while giving back as little as possible, except in meaningless gestures.

    [–]Luckyluke23 11 points12 points  (0 children)

    yeah, i think we can all give back a little more.

    [–]2asd1100 7 points8 points  (7 children)

    First of all there is literally no comparison. The women can't be friends paradigm is cute but it's like arguing that even with special gear you can't walk on the sun. It's a no shit sherlock hypothesis, it really isn't up for debate. Women's nature does not allow for a fair and balanced exchange. At a fundamental level they are gatherers of utility, while men are producers of utility.

    Secondly, you are using the concept of friendship wrong. It's not about transferring utility but specifically about building a support structure. You can give nothing but if you provide a emotionally good environment(one you enjoy is preferable) that will be perceived as utility(if they like it) with no cost to you. You can have male friends that never helped you move ever, but you have the certaty that in a difficult context they will have your back.(even if they don't really want to). The opposite also occurs, as when a special situation arrises you will give direct utility to maintain the support system(because that is common sense, if one of your peers needs help you give it, helping him is like helping you). Women and male bitches need to be coerced or shamed into doing it, because they lack the sense of preserving the support system. They are just as likely to help out a convincing stranger as a life long friend.(because the direct utility is almost the same: a favor)

    Now, I get the feeling that your hate for value leaches stems from having a favor based system in mind and this is something a more machiavelian person can take advantage of pretty easily. Now the guy that is taken advantage of tries to buy his way into a group with direct utility, favors instead of contributing indirectly to the micro environment. If you give people shit, they will take it, but don't expect to get something in return or be perceived as valuable just because of it. A waiter brings a lot of utilities to the table, but you don't buy him a drink.

    [–]monsieurhire2 0 points1 point  (6 children)

    "You can give nothing but if you provide a emotionally good environment(one you enjoy is preferable) that will be perceived as utility(if they like it) with no cost to you."

    I beg to differ on these points. I have a "friend" who refuses to provide emotional support, yet insists that I provide it to him. This manifests as him barely listening to me, but then blabbing on for 20-30 minutes about his problems. I've begun telling him, "Whoa there, buddy, save it for your therapist! You're bringing me down with all your problems!" And the cost is my time and opportunities lost. I limit my interaction with him to a minimum. I keep him around as a reminder to avoid initiating new toxic relationships. Also, he never wants to do anything I want to do that he doesn't want to do already. He can be persuaded or influenced only with extreme, concernted effort, and on certain points, he is inflexible.

    An example of a female friend who provides value is this 23-year old that I know. She's attractive and I like her, but I don't have an overpowering desire for her, because I have an abundance mentality. I use her as arm candy for social proof. She lives nearby, so it costs next to nothing to pick her up. We have a mutual interest that defrays any question of my motives. And I don't have to pay for her because she's a "strong, independent woman TM" and I'm not her boyfriend, so it works out perfectly. I act as her ride, escort, and activity partner. I think it's a pretty even exchange. There's another young woman who lives relatively far away from me. She's made a few overtures, but I don't like her enough to go out of my way for her.

    [–]2asd1100 1 point2 points  (5 children)

    He is not a friend he is a confident man that you seek aproval from and as a consequence he uses your time for his emotion dump.

    Your desire should never be overpowering. But you should still fuck her. But I digress, she again is not your friend. You are using her(if you do it corectly) like a inanimate object, she is a "tool" just like you are used in the first scenario. Now her interests in you may not be the same as your interests in the first case but she still has some direct benefits, while your benefits are indirectly and can be gathered by literally any other cheap arm candy.

    Friendship is a environment where you both contribute indirectly to the relationship: hang out with no expressed purpose but with a decisive intention(i.e. you would not prefer any other person to replace your friend, you don't use him as a interactive time waster or a story dumping ground).

    [–]monsieurhire2 0 points1 point  (4 children)

    "He is not a friend he is a confident man that you seek aproval from"

    This friend is not confident at all; he is beset by phobias and compulsions which make it hard to socialize with him. He's not into exploration, change, or self-improvement. He likes doing the same thing over and over again: watching TV, playing his guitar, eating junk food. I don't seek his approval at all. At one point, I did seek to be his "friend," but my patience ran out.

    If people don't have a use for each other, they don't associate. Perhaps I don't believe in friendships. To me, friend is an amorphous word that people use on each other to extract favors.

    You can say that me and my young female associate use each other. I enjoy her company. She's amusing and well-spoken. We have interesting conversations on a variety of topics. But even these supposedly amorphous traits that you link to this concept of "friendship" can be quantified.

    "Friendship is a environment where you both contribute indirectly to the relationship: hang out with no expressed purpose but with a decisive intention . . . ."

    Yeah, the whole hanging out thing is people using each other to assuage their loneliness. And I don't to see what direct and indirect have to do with anything. When you hang out with someone, you are sacrificing opportunties to do other things. Hanging out costs time, a most precious commodity. And also, people typically do things when they hang out; they play games, talk to amuse to stimulate themselves. Would you want to hang out with a dullard who shares non of your interests? Probably not. Friendships could be characterized as associations around a mutual interest where there are feelings of goodwill generated. Whereas, a plain association would be you getting together to play chess with someone you don't like that much. So friendship is related to feels. If I and my young female friend / associate enjoy each other's company than we make each other feel good just by being in each other's company, then we are friends. I'm pretty sure she's not interested in me romantically, and I'm not interested in her. I can use her as a chess piece and still be her friend, because my using her is incidental. It's not like I grab her, put her on my arm, and walk around the room, we just show up together and sit at a table, and then go do our thing, together, or separately.

    [–]2asd1100 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    Ok, then why did you wan't to befriend him in the first place?

    Yes, if i enjoy the company of a dull person that doesn't share any of my interest. That person is an actual friend. I agree this generation of emotionaly broke people really has no idea what friendship is above the age of 10.(in fact even children seem to lack enjoyment of meaningless human interactions - how the fuck cn a 1o year old feel lonelyness?)

    I don't think she wants to sleep with you per se but she does want you to pat her on the head and call her a good girl.

    Counting seconds is retarded. Your life is not measured by time lost, that is nevrotic, it's measured by personal acomplishes. I.e. spending 100 hours drinking with mates is a more valueble way to spend your time than learning japanese altough it is defintly less usefull.

    [–]monsieurhire2 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    This guy actually courted me. I was in graduate school at the time and he was low-maintenance. Unlike my previous group of "friends", he wasn't into drugs and alcohol, he was a good guitarist, knew a lot about music, and was entertaining and intelligent. But the problem is, he never evolved. He has basically stayed the same for the last 10 years, while I've evolved in a number of ways. I tried prodding him, and made a few differences, like, I convinced him to get some warm winter-wear clothing so we could go walking in sub-zero weather. This was a completely new concept to him, since his family is sedentary as he is. Like you, I believed we were "friends," because I couldn't see any kind of overt exchange going on. Then, one day, while he was venting to me about something, a lightbulb clicked. After he had worn himself out, I started to vent and immediately noticed him looking bored. I was going through a difficult time in my life; he'd gotten to know me when things were relatively good and I was optimistic. Then I had some setbacks and he started to turn, although comparatively speaking, he was a loyal "friend" in that he didn't immediately desert me. That's when it occurred to me that my primary value to him was as someone who listen to him vent and keep him company doing things that he wanted to do. Now, I still consider him a "friend," or whatever, but more by being grandfathered in. Occasionally, we get together and have a meal, or talk on the phone, but we're not exactly BFFs because our interests don't align anymore. Also, I live further away, and while he is fine with me commuting to see him, he's less willing to commute to see me. This is a common phenomenon; distance destroying relationships.

    I'm sure she enjoys approval, as do I. It feels nice when people approve of you and are nice to you. I don't have a problem with that. As long as she behaves herself.

    I get what you are saying about time, but that's not an absolute truth, and that philosophy can lead to you doing the same things until they become meaningless and have lost their savor. Counting seconds can help you move on to more interesting activities and people. I had that philosophy with another dude I'm not longer friends with, and looking back on it, I can say my time would have been better spent doing other things, but that I stuck by the relationship out of a misguided sense of loyalty, even though the guy turned abusive. This girl I thought was a "friend" recently crossed the line with me and wouldn't apologize the way I wanted her to, wanting me to accept her insincere mouthings as an apology; so I've gone no-contact on her. I'm just not going to waste my time tolerating that kind of nonsense. There are too many other people who deserve a shot.

    [–]2asd1100 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Why did you give a fuck in the first place?

    To compare, do you think she gives that basic fuck about you, that you showed that guy?

    It depends? is eating meaningless? is protected sex meaningless? It repetative and futile. There are some actions we do for the very basic reason we like them.

    Judging yourself in hindsights is stupid, you learn and move on, you don't punish yourself for not being able to predict the future.

    Yeah but the shots you give them are high speed bullets and you get mad because they can't catch them

    [–]monsieurhire2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    The girl I gave a basic fuck about was useful to me at one point . . . and then her utility depreciated, and then she started acting passive aggressive as she sensed this. Wrong move. It pushed me away. I didn't harbor any animosity towards her, it's just that as I got to know her better, I saw behavior patterns I didn't like. So I spent less time with her and more with other people. Then she crossed the line, so . . . no contact. I'm ambivalent about her. I only mention her as an example.

    [–]1IVIaskerade 54 points55 points  (3 children)

    With regard to your "guy friends" point, it's all about what kind of people they are. If she has over a dozen, but they're all what we'd term "beta", chances are she's just a massive attention whore, whereas a girl with a few "alpha" guy friends is probably banging all of them.

    The scenario you outlined is more likely to occur, but there are always exceptions.

    [–]copralalic 21 points22 points  (1 child)

    Even betas get laid sometimes. It's not worth the risk. If she has a lot of guys around all the time, you cannot be certain that she's not fucking or will not fuck one of them at some point. If you're cool with that, then cool, but if you are in a LTR then you should think long and hard about it.

    [–]Crazywhite352 49 points50 points  (27 children)

    I see what youre trying to say, but Im gonna have to disagree to an extent.

    Men and women can be friends as long as there is no sexual attraction

    I have a few female friends that Ive known forever and have never had sex with, and never would have sex with, even if they want to. Theres no sexual attraction between us, its strictly platonic, and on multiple occasions theyve helped me out with stuff, and theyve also hooked me up with other girls.

    We arent orbiting each other, atleast not how I see normally, at all. We`re just cool with each other, we hang out, get drunk, have fun. I do alot of the same shit with them that I do with my guy friends.

    [–]confuseacatlmtd 7 points8 points  (1 child)

    I have a few female friends like this. I also have a few that I know we would be fucking if circumstances were different. A lot of them have gone out of their way to help me and asked nothing in return. I think if you are alpha and can provide them with a friendship they can get not validation but maybe a sense of stability and calmness from, then they will treat you with respect.

    Two good indicators on if you are an orbiter or not.

    1. If she asks for advice does she take it? Or is she just looking to complain to someone because the guy shes fucking doesnt talk to her enough.

    2. If you call her in trouble will she put herself out for you? I had a female friend pay for a hundred dollar messauge for me when my back was out. I paid her back through a gift but she never even asked.

    [–]Crazywhite352 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Yup I agree. If you got your shit right, then its no big deal. One of these girls has bonded me out of jail before, 5k bond, paid 500 to get me out. Shes a good friend :)

    [–]needless_pickup_line 24 points25 points  (9 children)

    But can you count on them in a pinch? I have a few female friends, but when shit hits the fan I know better than to rely on them.

    Close male friendships are very much "ride or die", as they are forged through trials, tribulations, victories, and other shared experiences. Female friendships, even amongst females, rarely ever reach that level of intensity.

    [–]Crazywhite352 27 points28 points  (3 children)

    Depends on what you mean in a pinch. If my car broke down and i needed a life, or i needed to borrow $50 or some shit yeah. If we're out at the bar and shits about to pop off, FUCK no. Theyre good for some things, and theyre still friends, albeit not the same as my best friend thats as close to family without being blood.

    In any case, they make my life better, not worse, and i think thats the true definition of a friend.

    [–]needmorefat 7 points8 points  (4 children)

    I can count on my female friends in a pinch. I often hear "help you move out of a house" as an acid test. Mine have put in hours lugging big heavy carts all across campus for me. TRP is just flat out wrong about this one. The main difference between male and female friendships is that female ones have more social emotions and gossiping and fewer video games and intellectual conversations - and if you can't navigate emotions you can't really be friends with women.

    On the other hand, our friendships have been forged over years by going through shit together, having intertwined lives, knowing each others families, fighting the same battles... whereas the "orbiter" dynamic can sprout up in just a couple of seconds like a persistent weed. It takes two to make a friendship, but it only takes one interested party to create an asymmetrical, power-talk-y dynamic. Between men and women there is always that initial uncertainty upon the early stages that maybe the other party likes them, wants something from them, will give them something...So in the fucked up dynamic that most people exist in, where they don't really have any long-term lifelong friends and the weeds out-compete the trees I can see how one would think that this always happens in mixed gender relationships.

    Especially on TRP - if you get my weeds vs trees distinction, the TRP "puerarchy" mindset is very "weeds"...it's a useful mindset, but it's useful mostly for people who spend most of their time isolated from a community and a deep social structure and get most of their interaction through work and parties. I think TRP recognizes this to some extent - and under traditional patriarchy women and men don't really mix as friends at all, so there's really no scope in the maintstream TRP mindset for real female friends.

    When you're in an environment where a lot of people know well and feel affection for you the hippy-dippie egalitarian attitude actually works fine - that's not to say you act like a "nice guy"... being ingratiating is also a weeds attitude - but you can genuinely stop thinking in terms of status competition and be super kind to everyone and it only strengthens you socially, and nothing can seriously go wrong because everyone legitimately cares about you. But if you try that with strangers or people you've only known a year, or when you're new in town, it blows up in your face and you immediately "lose" the status competition. And the thing is, if you start out in a status competition, it doesn't matter if you get married or have kids or what, that power-struggle dynamic will never fully go away. The thing is to know what situation you're in.

    Try your hardest to stay out of the weed-favoring social environments, but if you're stuck in it like most people, act accordingly. I found this out by moving from place to place a lot - social context is destiny and often you can't do much about it.

    [–]feelinglazy 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    Can you elaborate more about the trees social environments? Where does this environment exist?

    [–]needmorefat 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I'm not entirely sure. I was in it once, but then we all grew up and moved out and I've been searching for it again ever since. My friends feel the same way, they all say it hasn't really been the same with their new friends

    1) The empty apartment makes weeds, that's the biggest one. Everyone coming home to that silence, creates an environment where everyone is insecure of loneliness but no one wants to admit it, so everyone tries really hard to be the cool one. In my trees environment, everyone had social interaction available basically on tap - you just step outside your room at any hour and one of your friends is there, happy to see you. When we all got our own apartments this connection degraded slightly and a lot of people dropped out of the group, although the central cluster remained tight. It's all about abundance. And, when it comes to relationships - no one gets into a relationship just because they're afraid to be alone, because no one is really alone...so weed-strategies like dread game and flaking and all the bullshit games people play in other environments kind of fall flat.

    2) Freedom to leave makes trees, Lack of power, lack of conflict of interest, lack of material stakes, freedom. You will never find trees environment with work friends, or with your graduate school buddies, because the boss has power and everyone is striving for approval and you're all competing in a sense. You also rarely find it in middle school or high school, since everyone is forced to be there and there's no freedom. To the extent you find it in college, it generally won't generally be via any sort of school activity - it will generally be around the dorms and other forms of co-ed group housing. If everyone is forced to be there and has no choice in the matter, you're not really friends.

    3) Lots of time spent in repeated, unforced interaction makes trees. If you have to actually make plans to meet someone, then you get the whole dynamic of who is seeking whom and who calls first, and then once you meet up there's a pressure to "perform" socially. But if you happen to just keep bumping into people as you go about your day, you just automatically become friends without thinking about it.

    4) Not knowing the people around you every well makes weeds. If no one is invested, and if you can just never see these people again if you so choose, you have no reason to be nice. If you're meeting up with, say, a bowling group once a week, you might know each other for years, but you only know each other for 1 hour per week, so you don't actually know each other for years. You have to know a group basically every day for trees.

    My running theory is that you basically have to mimic the conditions of a hunter-gatherer tribe as closely as possible. Hunter gatherers were pretty egalitarian folks, before agriculture and civilization. It's not super easy to do. Weeds are the shallow interactions and relationships that occupy the emptiness of a person who is fundamentally alone and disconnected, benefiting from fucked up zero sum incentive structures. We tend to uproot our trees, so we get weeds.

    [–]cheetah_swirley 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I had the same back when I was squatting, that lasted for a number of years afterwards. It took quite a long while before everyone began to drift off. I think squatters or gypsies (squatters are urban gypsies pretty much) probably have the lifestyle closest to hunter gatherers in this day and age

    [–]creekcanary 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I really appreciate this comment a lot and am saving it to reread. I grew up on the West Coast and work on the East Coast: idk if it's a geographical cultural thing or what, but I find my social circle dynamics back home are much more egalitarian, maybe even socialist in nature, and are more competitive back East. And it's funny cuz all the egalitarian stuff WORKS out west because everyone is like that -- there's no turd in the punch bowl to ruin it for everyone. Once you have one person competing for dominance, everyone else's generosity has to change and be qualified by power dynamics.

    TRP is great but you're wise in pointing out that there can be social dynamics based on genuine generosity and equality. I'm basically a Capitalist myself politically (more like an-cap/libertarian), but it is comforting to be reminded that genuine socialist dynamics (in the best sense of the word) can spontaneously arise at the micro-social level.

    Saved, thx.

    [–]100 Modbsutansalt 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    Booze changes everything. Coyote wake-ups happen, and sometimes between platonic friends where there was no attraction.

    [–]2asd1100 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Can you fuck her if you wanted to?

    That is all it boils down to.

    I do alot of the same shit with them that I do with my guy friends.

    I very much doubt it unless those guys are teenagers.

    [–]Crazywhite352 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    2/3 yeah I think I could. Buuut like I said, we've grown up with each other since single and early double digit age.

    [–]confuseacatlmtd 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I have a few female friends like this. I also have a few that I know we would be fucking if circumstances were different. A lot of them have gone out of their way to help me and asked nothing in return. I think if you are alpha and can provide them with a friendship they can get not validation but maybe a sense of stability and calmness from, then they will treat you with respect.

    Two good indicators on if you are an orbiter or not.

    1. If she asks for advice does she take it? Or is she just looking to complain to someone because the guy shes fucking doesnt talk to her enough.

    2. If you call her in trouble will she put herself out for you? I had a female friend pay for a hundred dollar messauge for me when my back was out. I paid her back through a gift but she never even asked.

    [–][deleted]  (8 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]doritoesNcoffee 16 points17 points  (2 children)

      Based on your last sentence, you are the orbiter. You are literally orbiting her until you can get wasted with her and HOPE that you can get laid.

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

        [–]bazwalt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I disagree. I don't think that what he wrote was indicative that he is/was an orbiter. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) but an orbiter would generally sacrafice his own time and efforts in order to satisfy her.

        His/her dynamic seems more like a 50/50 split where neither party necessarily invests any more time than what is expected but on the same hand is generally there for one another as is expected.

        [–]foldpak111 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Dude women that tall usually don't care cause they have lower value being so damn big. I'm shorter than you and banged a lot of tall chicks. They are so insecure its light work

        [–]Crazywhite352 1 point2 points  (3 children)

        Exactly, these girls and I have known each other since we were kids, we grew up together. So theres never really been much there. However, they all have friends, and theyre almost all hot.

        Furthermore I wanna add this... It seems theres a misconception on this subreddit that you cant have female friends, and I think thats bullshit. Theres nothing wrong with keeping a few girls around, as JUST friends.

        [–]feelinglazy 0 points1 point  (2 children)

        Well, you have to understand the mindset of most guys here. They ended up here because they got burned by a woman or some women before, that's why they feel that they can't trust women.

        [–]foldpak111 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        You'd have to be a fool after reading all the material here. Trusting a woman is like taking a dog on a walk without a leash on a busy street and trusting him not to walk in the road.

        [–]Crazywhite352 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        Dude I've got a super burned story too, I still hang out with females and fuck em too.

        [–]TheRealMouseRat 4 points5 points  (6 children)

        I'm just wondering about some tips here, but if a girl has say 10 male friends, and it seems like they are orbiters to her, would it be a bad idea to get in a LTR with her? To me it seems like she just uses them, which is no problem for me, what are your opinions on this? What if one or more of them are more "alpha" types, and she probably have been fuckbuddies with them before, would that be a red flag for a LTR with the girl?

        [–]2asd1100 6 points7 points  (1 child)

        would it be a bad idea to get in a LTR with her?

        yes, very much so, a LTR should be out of the question. Take her for a spin but only if you like sharing and for your own emotional health if you are generally better(more alpha) than those alpha "friends".

        To me it seems like she just uses them, which is no problem for me, what are your opinions on this?

        If she uses men better than you, I guarantee she will use you too, they just have the common sense to stay at a arms reach while I do not get the feeling you have this since you directly asked about a LTR.

        What if one or more of them are more "alpha" types, and she probably have been fuckbuddies with them before, would that be a red flag for a LTR with the girl?

        It depends why they didn't escalate and who is keeping who at a distance. But in both cases it's a red flag. And in no fucking way commitment worthy.

        [–]TheRealMouseRat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        aight, thanks for the elaborate tips.

        [–]primordialbeast85 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        As long as you are aware of the reality that some of those guy friends have had sex with her already or could potentially have sex with her in the future, then by all means.

        [–]Gyissan 0 points1 point  (2 children)

        Yep. The smart idea would be to plate her and get a feel of her personality. Upgrade her to LTR if you feel she checks out.

        [–]2asd1100 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        don't push the guy in the deep end, can't you see he is begging for a NAWALT argument.

        [–]Metal_Marcus 28 points29 points  (13 children)

        I have ONE female friend that I know we both are just friends and no more. Been friends for about 10 years and we hooked up once at the beginning and it didn't work. We've both been through a few relationships (her more than me, I prefer single now) and still remain good friends until this day. I don't think we're orbiters of each other, but more like brother and sister. I'll do stuff for her and she the same with just the "doing a favour for a friend" deal. Nothing more.

        [–]nclael 14 points15 points  (1 child)

        I have a similar friendship. It's very poignant how much less BS and pretention when both people know the exact state of the relationship.

        [–]Metal_Marcus 6 points7 points  (0 children)

        It's quite incredible, she's one of my best friend for life. We can just go out and get Shitty together and have a blast without any sexual tension.

        [–]speed3_freak 9 points10 points  (0 children)

        I was thinking the same thing. I've been really good friends with this chick for ~8 years or so, and we were always just friends even when we were both single. She's stayed over at my place, and I at hers on multiple occasions with 0 sexual tension on either side whatsoever. She got married to someone I knew but never hung out with. Now he is one of my best friends.

        I think you can have a completely platonic relationship with a woman as long as each person has no sexual desire for the other. Some chicks are cool to hang out with.

        [–]ImBloodyAnnoyed 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Yup. I have ONE female friend like that. Known her for over ten years, good stuff. No romance just someone to shoot the shit with and help strategizing. Great wing woman.

        Everyone who knows us thinks that we are or should be dating.

        I know no one else in person who has a similar friendship with a girl. Everyone else has female friends like OP described - orbiters or plates.

        [–]BloodRoseTRP 13 points14 points  (3 children)

        Be careful with that thought. She might not see it that way, even if she says she does

        [–]Metal_Marcus 20 points21 points  (2 children)

        Will its been 10 years and nothing has happened, not even kissing, cuddling or any kino. I think we're good.

        [–]SwissPablo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I have a similar friend here. I think the fact we had a fling at the start and effectively got the sexual tension out of the way meant we could concentrate on being proper friends.

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]Metal_Marcus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I said I have ONE female friend, not 50. Just because one doesn't fit the perfect algorithm (AWALT), doesn't mean it can't happen. In your lack of life experience, your judgement is based off of reading others stories, rather than experiencing it first hand. You'll figure it out eventually that friendship with a female is possible to be non-sexual for both parties. Albeit, extraordinarily rare.

          [–]Anderfail 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Unicorns are extraordinarily rare. I've met a very very small amount of women that fit this situation. My wife is one, which is why I married her but I have met a few others (can count them all on one hand). On the other hand I have met thousands of women who fail miserably and generally don't get the friendship concept in the way men typically do.

          [–]AnotherLostCause 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          I'd go one step further and say this is true of relationships as well. One person leads and the other compromises.

          [–]2asd1100 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Not really, if you lead for "the good of the relationship". There is no sacrifice other than her ego, which to be fair should not even have a place at the table in a committed relationship.

          Leading is not manipulating, it's a job not a privilege. You are compromising by not being a lazy selfish SOB. Being a wimp in a relationship is retardedly easy, you just react and gather enough resources to be comfortable. You don't even give 2 shits about the other person, you just feed of her attention and validation. As a leader you need to understand the other person, know their wants and their needs and reconcile them with the resources you have at your disposal. You take both the external hits and her aggression, and you can not react, you can not be short sighted and petty.

          [–]redPillNotBlueBalls 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          I'm not sure why this is hard to understand, but you are using 3 things to create a rule that doesn't exist. I had a friend that was a girl that had a few guy friends, and if she ever got help from them, she'd cook them something to repay for the help. She was hot, so some of these guys would ask her out from time to time. She'd just say they're just friends and the friendship would go on. That group of buddies were college bros with a girl in it.

          If a guy wants a piece of ass that he isn't getting, it's a point where he has a higher chance of dropping his guard and letting himself be used, but if he's smart enough to control the situation and she's not a scumbag that uses guys, a friendship is possible - it's just a friendship that causes the guy to say, "I'd tap that if I could."

          [–]1whatsazipper 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          If a woman is going out of her way to do things for you or is behaving like she has your interests in mind, FUCK HER ALREADY (assuming she's attractive). She finds you attractive. Women do not waste time on men who they aren't attracted to unless they're attempting to use them.

          [–]DoctorWelch 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          I agree with this. I do have many friends that are girls, and every single one of them is an orbiter of mine. I know they are into me, and have even messed around with a few of them, but I never give them what they want and just keep them at arms length.

          If a girl tries to make me an orbiter I immediately break her off. Now, this might sound hypocritical but I can only control what I do. I refuse to be an orbiter of anyone and if women want to orbit me that is their own decision.

          [–]TheeRyanGrey 8 points9 points  (2 children)

          There are no girl friends There are no girl friends There are no girl friends There are no girl friends There are no girl friends

          There are no girl friends

          [–]1whatsazipper 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          In this thread people are having trouble keeping the red pill down. All these odd defenses of orbiting and female friendship, it'd be amusing if it weren't so completely wrong.

          [–]animustestandi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Girl friends exist!!! You've just met the wrong people!!!!!! /s

          No really, I seriously think they exist but with slightly different dynamics than regular male to male friendships.

          If she is not the guy's orbiter, then there are two possibilities. The first option is that the guy is an orbiter. The second option is that the guy is deep down aware that he needs to contribute more to the friendship, otherwise the friendship won't work, but doesn't mind that. The guy is not sexually attracted to her but wants to keep the girl in his life because he enjoys her company. Let me give you an example; the guy likes talking to her about politics. The guy sometimes calls the girl to talk about politics. They meet, both of them pay for their own drinks, they talk, they say goodbye. Then a time passes, the guy calls her again. The girl doesn't call for a meet up, ever, because she is not used to it, meeting with men she is not sexually interested. The guy is aware of this, but keeps calling her because he wants to talk politics with her.

          [–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (13 children)

          This is exactly the reason why I tend to avoid this sub nowadays.

          First, you're putting way too much thought into it, second, I see two fallacies in your argument:

          1. Women can't be orbiters, if you don't make a move she'll probably lose all attraction to you and/or simply bed another guy and spend time with him, if you do make a move then she is, according to the law of YouFuckingBangedHerDude, not an orbiter.

          2. Attraction without sex =/= orbiting, just because I'd bang some of my female friends given the chance doesn't mean I'm an orbiter for hanging out with them. I genuinely like being around them. Same goes for women, I have some female friends who would've sucked my dick the moment I ordered them to before I made it clear I wasn't interested in anything more than a platonic friendship.

          I'm probably going to get downvoted for this but; this is an instance where NAWALT and it really just depends on the woman's personality.

          Regarding your "friendship" with that woman, you weren't friends. You never made it clear you weren't in it for the pussy so she just assumed you were another orbiter.

          [–]primordialbeast85 15 points16 points  (2 children)

          Women can absolutely be orbiters. Women don't suddenly lose all attraction to you just because you don't want them. If anything they want you more. Attraction is attraction, if it's there, it generally will be there.

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Ya I remember in high school having a hardcore orbiter. Since I was pretty young I didn't really know how to deal with it and now I feel kind of bad since she ended up really hurt =P After that I started making sure to spot these instances more readily and nip them before things get out of hand.

          [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

          What I meant was, women can't be orbiters in the sense that men can be orbiters. Poor choice of words on my part.

          [–]bobolino59 4 points5 points  (1 child)

          " I have some female friends who would've sucked my dick the moment I ordered them to before I made it clear I wasn't interested in anything more than a platonic friendship."

          Hum... I'm going to choose to give you the benefit of the doubt out of politeness but frankly doubt is what I feel when I read this.

          I've lived in places like Philippines where you can get chicks by the dozen every night but still, your female friends will not get on all fours and start sucking at any time just because you order them to. Except if you make friends with Bar girls or something.

          [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

          That wasn't meant to be taken literally, what I meant by that is "I could most definitely have fucked them if I chose so because they were obviously into me."

          [–]InazumaKiiick 8 points9 points  (5 children)

          This is getting as retarded as a feminism sub, just some person with no credibility or expertise in anything blowing shit out of their ass that describes the world in the way they want to believe it behaves, regardless of how it really is.

          [–]primordialbeast85 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          Yea I get that feeling as well. When you get the guys who really know what they are doing, it jumps off of the page. A lot of the shit out here is some backwards as shit that goes against the purpose of the site. Most people aren't reading the sidebar, or incorporating shit like this into their life because it shows in their comments. Or there are others who have lived this kind of life already.

          [–]InazumaKiiick 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Exactly, it's deviated from, "how to be a confident and capable man that can handle women and relationships and realizing the lies told by society", to "Who can be the edgiest fucking horse cocked ALPHA MALE in this thread!!?!1!!?"

          [–]bobolino59 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

          "This is getting as retarded as a feminism sub"

          Really?

          Did we invent new crimes or seek to criminalize normal sexual behavior ?

          Did we deny the whole of evolutionary psychology and replaced it with Carl Marx ?

          Did we invent fake statistics and complain about them at the same time?

          Did we ask people to pay us money due to our victim status?

          Seems to be this is a case of seeing the straw but not the beam.

          [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

          just some person with no credibility or expertise in anything blowing shit out of their ass that describes the world in the way they want to believe it behaves, regardless of how it really is.

          Is that aimed at me or the OP?

          [–]InazumaKiiick 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          OP, sorry for the confusion

          [–]2asd1100 5 points6 points  (1 child)

          Attraction is reactive, you don't necessarily have to work for it. You just may be attractive, you may be a good team leader or be passionate about sharks. All these trigger her and if she isn't getting any on the side she will obses over her infatuation and pile on a lot of other projective traits. You are confident and smart because you are a leader and you're great with kids because you care about sharks and so on.

          doesn't mean I'm an orbiter for hanging out with them.

          Yes it does:

          I genuinely like being around them.

          I have some female friends who would've sucked my dick the moment I ordered them to before I made it clear I wasn't interested in anything more than a platonic friendship.

          I can't tell if you're a pussy or self deluded liar.

          this is an instance where NAWALT and it really just depends on the woman's personality.

          No, it depends on the man's. Some NAWALT themselfs into non-sexual interaction because they fear getting the milk without buying the cow.

          Edit, don't worry about downvotes, this place is filled with naive betas and Nawalting women. Karma just doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. ANd there is something that keeps you from making the leap and actually enjoying life.

          [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          The fact that a female friend is attracted to you is irrelevant in a male-female friendship, because whether or not she's hot she'll have options, if she can't fuck you she'll move on to some other dude and settle for a platonic friendship with you. Will she still be attracted to you? Probably, she may even occasionally try to seduce you again if she can't find another dude for a while.

          Yes it does:

          Maybe you need to look up the definition of orbiter before claiming shit.

          I can't tell if you're a pussy or self deluded liar.

          And just like that I know you didn't get my point and took that sentence literally. I'm not going to argue with someone who can't grasp the concept of hyperboles.

          [–]primordialbeast85 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          It's always interesting to dissect relationships in your life with terms like equal, superior, inferior. If you sit back and meta it, it's pretty appalling stuff, but it's natural and this imaginary ranking system we use to judge everyone and everything is real and plays a tremendous part of our lives. As with anything, it's always good to have a balance of inferior, equal and superior relationships in your life for a healthy and most accurate representation of reality.

          In my opinion, the biggest cause of conflict is when interpretations are different of level. If you think you are equal or superior, yet this person thinks they are superior, the probability of conflict is very high. When interpretations are of similar level, getting along is very easy.

          [–]watersign 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          i cannot be nor will i ever be "friends with a girl"

          [–]sanemaat 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          Unsubstantiated claims with anecdotal evidence

          [–]snakeob 3 points4 points  (1 child)

          I think equal friendship happens when your aid and kindness are simply done without expected recourse.

          [–]2asd1100 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I reject the word kindness.

          It's more about wanting to preserve the emotional support system and in doing so getting indirect utility.

          But yes, it's not about exchanging favors.

          [–]ultrasuperthrowaway 3 points4 points  (1 child)

          Hmm not true, I have platonic female coworkers as friends. You will too one day.

          [–]doritoesNcoffee -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          We are talking about a friendship, not coworkership.

          [–]TreeBeats_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          All of you are saying no...no... its not that way. I swear there is exceptions. Yeah obviously there are exceptions, but in general I think this post is spot on.

          [–]bustznuts 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I pretty much agree with the premise. I have one female friend who is legitimately one of my best friends but I have no interest in her sexually at all. That friendship is probably weighted in my favor/she is kind of an orbiter.

          I stopped being close friends with girls I wanted to sleep with if they weren't having it because of what you describe. Its bad for the soul. Now I am only friends with girls who are present fuck buddies; or past fuck buddies where I think there is a good shot of becoming active again.

          Obviously there are girls in my friend group who are dating some of my other friends or are friends from class but I will never again be in a position I was in 2 summers ago where I was totally infatuated with this girl I was orbiting hard and did favors for her left and right.

          [–]cherubym 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          To a single woman men are either dates, potential dates, or date substitutes.

          http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/woman.html#_Toc489442832

          [–]imthemostmodest 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I see this kind of shit posted here all the time, and it's always bullshit.

          Part of choosing good friends is that you don't stay friends with someone who doesn't reciprocate your friendship.

          My friend Charmaine has picked me up at airports, cooked for me, I've done the same for her, we talk about relationship issues with each other, we just hang out and watch movies. She's also an excellent wingman, we have each directly gotten each other laid several times.

          You can have female friends, if they're really friends. I don't have any particular goal in mind with Charmaine, we're just chilling. I'm not being friends with her out of some long-game attempt to fuck her, I just actually enjoy her company. I know what i want out of the relationship, and I'm getting it.

          [–]charlesbukowksi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          What you're describing is frame. And while men can share frame, there's usually some dominance or at the most egalitarian mutual indifference.

          [–]Yogpod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          It depends on the situation for me, when we are picking out clothes in a clothing store I am definatly the yes man, while when I am smithing (hobby) outside my house I am most definitely the leader. This yin yang is keeping our relationship together I feel, we both feel like we are in "control" of our relationship without either becoming too controlling over the other.

          [–]ThoughtBlast 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I agree but I don't think it forgets to account for incompatible sexuality in general. For instance you can have an equal friendship between a homosexual male and a homosexual female because neither sees the other as a valid mate. The dynamic would be similar to two strait people of the same gender.

          [–]1TVTestPattern 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I think Billy Crystal puts it well here:

          YouTube

          [–]648262 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Any social interaction follow that rule. Gender has nothing to do with it.

          An orbiter is just a follower.

          [–]skylineboulevard 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          Coming from life experience this is generally true, but there are exceptions. I've been good friends with a few girls where there was no orbiting on either side. It's something every guy should experience.

          Plus, they make great wing women and can sometimes give good advice.

          [–]Ties5o -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          Agreed. Most of my "mutual inter-gender" friendships are from my friend circle, girls that are just around a lot. Those tend to lack any power dynamic. Rollo just wrote a good post on how inter-gender friendships are never quite as strong, and I agree with that.

          [–]MrMagwitch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          .

          [–]anonlymouse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          If this is the case, you're doing it wrong.

          Scenario 1: My roommate threatens to assault me shortly after I've been out of the hospital from a neck injury. Friend lets me stay at her place until I've been able to talk to the police. She had a boyfriend for the better part of a decade (is still with him, more than a decade now), so she wasn't orbiting me, and I was the one getting help - haven't done anything concrete to help her, but she has rich parents, the opportunity doesn't come up. Equal friendship.

          Scenario 2: Both my girlfriend and I have to work while the fire department is checking our apartment, ask a friend if she can house-sit to let them in. I leave her money for her time (she's self-employed), and faresavers. She only takes the faresavers for transit costs. I've house-sat for her in the past as well. Equal friendship.

          It's about ditching bad friends and making room to meet good friends. I've known both of these girls for ~8 years now.

          [–]idrivesmallcars 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          You just have bad luck or game bro. I have plenty of friendships with females that are platonic/mutual. We can also fuck without being weird about it... PSP Marcus- step Ya game up

          [–]InazumaKiiick -4 points-3 points  (3 children)

          Nah, bullshit. One of my Best friends is a girl, and it's just like with my guy friends.

          We go weeks without talking to each other, we talk about our relationships, She bought me fucking ribs for my Birthday. No, she isn't the orbiter, she has her relationships and I have mine. We go to parties with each, drink, keep each other from doing something we'll regret, etc.

          So yeah, I call shenanigans.

          [–]PM_ME_UR_GIRLFRIEND -1 points0 points  (1 child)

          You're the orbiter because she came to your mind first.

          [–]InazumaKiiick 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          [–]Perch1 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          I really dislike the anti-female-friend sentiment here. I have plenty of female friends that I don't want to fuck, and they don't want to fuck me either. Friends' girlfriends, ex-coworkers, people I know from high school, etc. It's not hard to treat a girl the way you would treat any of your guy friends if she has value other than her appearance.

          Shit, I'm even friends with an ex. We broke up because I was leaving the country, but I genuinely like talking to her because we have a lot of shared interests. I couldn't care less about who she's fucking now or whatever. Probably would have bothered me in the past when I had a severe scarcity mentality.

          If someone improves your life, they are a friend. My female friends have helped me out on many occasions and expected nothing in return. Good behavior should be rewarded.

          [–]PM_ME_UR_GIRLFRIEND -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          Are... You serious? Men and women just simply aren't the same species? Wow. I'd feel sorry for you if you didn't sound like such a naive yet condescending cunt. Enjoy your mediocre life.

          [–]Overzealous_BlackGuy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          Ehh, i have to argue this. Yes, this is frequently the case, but men and women can be friends. Ive had different results, and ive witnessed it. You technically explained any relationship. Good point although

          [–]Thor_The_Dog -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

          I am a 19 year old male and i have had many female friends for years... Once in a while one will ask me to do things for her for nothing and i always shoot that shit down.
          But two of my best friends are female and i don't hold male friends above them because they have penises.
          Tl;dr I treat people like people and romantic interests like romantic interests

          [–]Obsessory -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

          This is completely inaccurate and taking a simplistic freudian interpretation of value. Even from a freudian perspective i can get value from a girls hot friends and general impression and be totlly uninterested in her and she can enjoy my entertainment and trust. This type of oversimplification of life shit is stooopid.

          [–]Geddy_Lees_Nose -4 points-3 points  (2 children)

          You sound incredibly insecure about your girlfriend having male friends. 80/20 rule? Super scientific. Jesus Christ.

          [–]primordialbeast85 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          I though that 80/20 thing made sense.

          [–]magicalbird -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          Disagree because male friendships aren't always equal either.

          In general your few close friends (male or female) will be equal and everyone else will be unequal.

          [–]crazydave1979 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

          Well she did take you out to the game.. You could've gave her some D.. I would've

          [–]primordialbeast85 -1 points0 points  (2 children)

          To meta the topic it a bit, there is a scale and different levels of equal, inferior and superior.

          There's times when you can be 1a 1b and so on. Eventually when the level is too far, friendship is impossible since you need to be on somewhat similar standing to be friends at all.

          [–]2asd1100 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          there is a scale and different levels of equal, inferior and superior.

          do you hear yourself? when you need to split hairs like that, you are hamstering really hard. Stop it and ask yourself why you want to go into that much nuace. Regardless of how unpleasent the answer is, there is where you will find growth, not in making up new shades of grey.

          [–]primordialbeast85 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          It's accurate and true. It just what happens when you meta something and see all of the various complexities behind something that is more of a headache to discuss than anything. Regardless of how unpleasant the answer is? What are you even talking about? Growth? You've completely lost me. Hamstering? Good lord you are lost.

          [–]trywhen -1 points0 points  (1 child)

          It sounds more like you might be valuing a females relationship more then a males, and then are hurt when they don't reciprocate according to your expectations.

          Look at your first example. Would you expect a female to defer the favor and offer to share the beers, or would you expect a more physical response?

          [–]2asd1100 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Would you expect a female to defer the favor and offer to share the beers, or would you expect a more physical response?

          No, he expected a modicum of consideration from her. But if your really want to extend the concept, yes, some reciprocation outside of just verbally being grateful would be civil a sign of appreciation and respect.

          Also on the topic of validation for favors, there would be no favors if women would not bait men with the promise of validation. But women learn from a very young age that that is how you get more candy. And men learn that that is how you get validation(be it socially as a a gentleman or directly as tingles) And what is trully horrifing, men get repramanded for this, but women don't because it verges on slut shaming. It's her cleavage and she can manipulate whoever she wants with it.

          [–]bobolino59 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          I have one such girl at the moment, she's fat and big nosed so I would say she's a 4. But she's also smart, very rich and successful (banker) and frankly fun to talk to.

          I'm so torn, I don't know what to do, I don't really care about her but I seems like such a shame to let her go... from a purely utilitarian point of view I mean.

          I totally understand girls that keep tons of orbiters, these folks are useful, I got to find a flat in London and she's doing all the searching for me without me asking her.

          On the other hand it seems dishonest when I know I will probably never give her what she wants.

          Wonder if girls see it the same way.

          [–]busior -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

          Lol in whole honesty your a pussey. I have spread my load all over bitches better than your sluts and they liked it

          [–]spectre-13 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

          Female/Male platonic friendships can exist as long as you set your boundaries as a compromise between what each of you want and you keep real expectations of each other. If their is any sexual attraction but you don't want to go there, you have to learn to let go of your desire for her. Remember that women are ALWAYS women, regardless of your relationship to them. They will still shit-test you because that is their nature, so keep that in mind if you decide to have female friends, therefore, handle them the same way you would any other woman. That being said, can I depend on her for a little help, a few favors, and a little bit of venting now and then? Sure, because expectations of each other have been set. Can I depend on her to drop everything and come to my aid without question like one of my male friends who are like brothers to me and I to them? Not likely and 9/10 times I would say no. If all she wants you for is a orbiter, and you don't want to be one, it's the same with any girl you have a relationship with: next her. I had to do a lot of women in my life after swallowing the pill, and made a few enemies in that way. So. Be. It. Women do not like it when you go from being their source of validation and under their control, to being independent of their influence. Always remember, your time is your most precious resource and regardless of the type of relationship you have with a girl, you have to decide if she is worth your time, and the grounds for that decision are always different if aren't trying to sleep with her. So if you make a female friend, the dynamics will be completely different than a male/male friendship and it will not be completely equal because men and women are fundamentally different beings and require different things from men, and different things from women in their lives.