all 190 comments

[–]1Zackcid 62 points63 points  (3 children)

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This kind of advice is given to women all the time in the form of "don't have sex with him until x number of dates or months/years". Funny how a male equivalent never even made a sound in society, only in this tiny fragment of virtual internet do we hear it.

If that advice is given to women and is allegedly effective, why wouldn't they tell men the same thing or an equivalent to it? Simple answer: Blue Pill society. Nothing we can do about it, other than learn the rules and crevasses to it and hopefully knock some sense into the heads of your closest blue pill buddies.

[–][deleted] 35 points36 points  (2 children)

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"Don't have sex until X number of dates" is just trade unionism applied to female sexuality. In every industry, high-wage workers have an incentive to be actively hostile toward anyone willing to perform the same or similar work for noticeably less pay.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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This is also exactly why slut shaming happens, and why the vast majority of slut shaming is woman on woman. The "sluts" would be scabs in your analogy, outside workers willing to do the same work as those on strike, even for less pay.

[–]vox_veritas 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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This is a terrific analogy.

[–]1aguy01 45 points46 points  (19 children)

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The trap for most incels is that even though they aren't getting pussy, they are getting validation through a woman's companionship. They are obviously bluepilled into needing that validation but they still crave it. Since they crave it they pay for it in time and favors, and since they get what they bargained for they come back.

[–][deleted]  (12 children)

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[deleted]

    [–]HerrV 11 points12 points  (8 children)

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    Why give a fuck about something that there's plenty of? Abundance vs scarcity

    [–]1Zackcid 5 points6 points  (7 children)

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    Are you saying there's an abundance of available women?

    [–]HerrV 32 points33 points  (0 children)

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    As has been said a million times and will be said another million times, abundance mentality beats scarcity mentality.

    And yes, yes, there is. Depending on your personal ethics, all women are available.

    [–]Turkerthelurker 10 points11 points  (3 children)

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    Whether applicable to you or not, yes, that should be your attitude regardless.

    [–]Dreamtrain 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    Unless you live in China or India. Yes, but it goes beyond that. It's to instill outcome independence more than anything. You are a much happier person when you have an abundance mentality about everything.

    [–]2asd1100 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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    It's more than blue pil, it's emotionally imature.

    [–]surgeon_general 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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    I really want to understand how to "not give a flying fuck about women" and then parlay that into having a sex life. I've played the "not giving a fuck" role many times, and it has almost always led me into walking away from women, and not being chased as I'm walking away. What am I missing here?

    I'm saying, maybe I came off as sexy for not needing her. Maybe she straight up masturbated to me for the next 2 months. But I still walked away not giving a fuck about her, and I'm no better off for it.

    Or are you talking about once you are already close with a woman, then you don't give a fuck about her?

    [–]RebootedMale 9 points10 points  (0 children)

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    they are getting validation through a woman's companionship

    That's a backhanded compliment if I ever heard one.

    The ultimate neg from a woman to a man is her making overtures that she wants your attention but not your cock.

    [–]1exit_sandman 5 points6 points  (1 child)

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    The trap for most incels is that even though they aren't getting pussy, they are getting validation through a woman's companionship.

    Wrong.

    They hope to change a woman's mind by staying around, and the more he invests in this one-sided relationship, the more he has to hamster it why he's doing this to himself. But I guarantee you: If an orbiter would know for sure (without any silver line and at the bottom of his despair) that he'll never, ever have an intimate relationship with the woman in question, odds are that he would cease to try. Or do something stupid. Unless, of course, he's guilt tripped into staying ("you're such a great friend and mean so much to me... nope, still no sex"), then he might still stick around and at least try to play the role of the love martyr.

    [–]1aguy01 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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    Nah, as a former incel I would hang out with girls that I knew were way out of my league because it felt like her status rubbed off on me. There are a lot of motivating factors beyond sex.

    [–]1 Endorsed Contributorvandaalen 37 points38 points  (23 children)

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    The problem is that pussy is overvalued by most men. Therefore women think that they deserve and demand all this shit for "allowing" you to give her pleasure. You need to realize that once you've got something to offer that you've put much work and time in to achieve, regardless if it's something material like money or something immaterial like wisdom, you do not want to give it away for free. Problem is that most females feel entitled to these things just because they were born with a pussy. They do not even realize the struggles men have in life since they've always got a safety net.

    Patrice also put it this way: A pussy is like wheels. If you wanted to buy a car and asked the dealer what made it so special and he would reply with "Well. It's got four wheels!" what would your reaction be like?

    Acknowledge that pussy isn't anything special and start introducing options to girls. Do not be afraid to "get caught" with wanting to have sex with them. In fact she should always be aware that sex is something you expect or you will not waste your time, energy and resources on her.

    The sex isn't any special treat you get for your good behaviour.

    [–]nsummy 75 points76 points  (7 children)

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    OP really drug out the concept that well have all been taught since kids: "friendship is a 2 way street." In this case replace friendship with relationship. This isn't some new and mind blowing concept and applies to much more than women.

    Good rule though.

    [–]dallz_beep[S] 22 points23 points  (1 child)

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    You're right, The Rule shouldn't be anything new. It's just that a shocking number of men are breaking it. They were taught by society to be sluts, and this community is about helping them unlearn their bad habits.

    [–]Casanova-Quinn 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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    From a game theory perspective, what you and OP are describing is essentially the "tit for tat" strategy (more info). Applying this to OP's post: Make an effort at first, if she does not reciprocate, withdraw your effort.

    [–]Riot101 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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    Much better said. There is a lot of women hate in this sub, but really all of that is superfluous and the real message boils down to respect yourself. People, not just women, will walk all over you if you let them. Even male friends will ask you for favors and never return them. You need to respect yourself, your time, and your resources. Once you do that, other people will too.

    Where women come into the picture is that guys feel social obligated to really go out on a limb to please women. Then they end up getting stepped on and get nothing in return. Make her buy you the first drink at the bar. It shows that you think of yourself as someone worth putting in for. Then you can reciprocate as equals do and buy her the next drink. If she says no then she is not worth your time.

    To be honest I think that is the hardest part of this idea for some guys to understand: If a girl isn't willing to give in a relationship, from the just met to the LTR, she is just not worth your time. Don't stoop, just move on and you will find someone who respects you. Focus on you and the right people will come along.

    [–]RebootedMale 27 points28 points  (6 children)

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    Fellow men, keep you legs closed and don’t give women jack shit unless you’re getting something out of it for yourself

    Don't settle for even just sex. At least make sure you are being treated like the man that you are, with respect.

    [–]1Zackcid 24 points25 points  (5 children)

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    Modern day relationships are just incredible and baffling. It's crazy how much women gain from a monogamous relationship. If men weren't brainwashed, they'd easily snap out and realize how badly they're getting ripped off.

    But sex and a pretty face is fucking powerful. Our biology exaggerates and builds it up so bad, everything else pales. Reason and logic get's thrown out the window the moment the chump sees tits in cleavage or a pretty face.

    [–]satur9 7 points8 points  (2 children)

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    Like you said, it's biology. It takes a strong man to keep a level head around a pretty face. And unfortunately, most men are not that strong.

    [–]1Zackcid 4 points5 points  (1 child)

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    Yeah, I'd say the most vulnerable males are the ones in the middle of the graph/bell curve. On one extreme, you got the angry bitter men who want nothing to do with women, as well as the MGTOWs of the world, while on the other end of the spectrum, you got the 20% alpha bros who get so much pussy that even the finest woman on the planet wouldn't phase em. The former, who've abandoned/rejected "femaleness" and relationships, I suspect also don't give a shit about a pretty girl.

    But this shit hardly even matters since the vast majority of males are found in the middle. They get just enough female contact to desire and crave it, but not enough for it to become a commodity/every day thing. Cleavage is hard to ignore at this point. Many members of TRP broke out of that mediocrity and are spinning plates, so it's not all lost.

    [–]1exit_sandman -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

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    Modern day relationships are just incredible and baffling. It's crazy how much women gain from a monogamous relationship. If men weren't brainwashed, they'd easily snap out and realize how badly they're getting ripped off.

    Well, your average Joe gets lots out of an ideal monogamous relationship: Unshared and perpetual intimacy with one woman, which certainly beats no intimacy at all. However, few things in life are ideal.

    [–]1Zackcid 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    Definitely true. The way the system is rigged, the average male would be ecstatic to have intimacy with a decent-looking woman. In a hypothetical world where couplings and sex were distributed more evenly and "fairly", maybe guys would then consider if they want to put up with this bullshit.

    [–]53Pirate 27 points28 points  (2 children)

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    I've found most women are just not that interesting to hang out with for extended periods with as "just-friends" ...... I spend a lot of my time doing things like scuba diving & spearfishing; Harley riding; off-shore fishing/boating; fishing for monster shark from the beach at night; fixing/maintaining mechanical things & building stuff; ocean & river kayaking, etc. I've done those things with women from time-to-time and found most women don't have enough knowledge, physical stamina, and/or need too much help from me with those activities. My intellectual interests include history, politics, philosophy, etc and most women have only a surface knowledge of those things. (well, not so much politics anymore ... I've become pretty apolitical as I've aged) Most women don't even make good drinking buddies, they can be entertaining for a bit as they drink but then they often just get stupid, silly, and/or annoying.

    I've had "just friends" women want me to take them to do those things, but I've become increasingly reluctant to do so when it's apparent that "just friends" is all it's gonna be because, all in all, it's not usually a valuable use of my time to do those things with women who need so much help/guidance from me to do them, yet have no pussy to offer in return. At least a bro can pull his own weight.

    Ergo, my interest in hanging out with most women is primarily sexual. So - If there's no possibility of a good roll in the hay on the horizon with a women, then I'd usually just as soon be doing those things with a bro who can contribute equally to the activity. I guess if I was really into things like watching chick-flicks, cooking, gossiping, children, etc I might enjoy being with a woman as "just-friends."

    (Note that I qualify the above statements with "most" .... there those rare few women though who make good activity/discussion/drinking partners .... but they're few and far in-between and generally quite fuckable in looks/personality, so if it's gonna be "just-friends" it's just that much torture for me)

    [–]mabden 11 points12 points  (1 child)

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    Reminds me of a pua's, called manic high, concept of Rocks and Gold.

    Let me tell you about rocks and gold.

    I often tell this story to chicks when they try to give me bullshit about 'being friends' and wanting to go out to dinners et.al. before agreeing to be my GF/put out sex. It says alot about how guys (and ladies) think, and why they have so much trouble to understand each other. It should answer your question about what guys think..

    Men and women both appreciate things that are valuable. Diamonds (rocks) and gold are both very valuable things. In a relationship, diamonds= personality (ie arranging nice romantic dinners, walks on the moonlight, candlelight with soft music', a sense of connection), while gold='sex'.

    But women prefer diamonds to gold (usually), and men prefer gold to diamonds (usually). Of course, both are important, especially in a long term relationship, but if a woman could choose, she would prefer the diamonds first, and the man would prefer the gold first.

    And (generally), a man can accept gold without the diamonds, and a woman can accept diamonds without any gold.

    So in a relationship, a woman is mining for diamonds, while the man is mining for gold.

    But if you give a woman gold (sex) only, or a man diamonds (romantic walks and nice dinners) only.. neither is likely to be very happy, and the relationship will soon fall apart. In short, an exchange of sorts takes place in a successful relationship.

    So if a man expects just gold (sex), but doesnt want to give her diamonds (relationship & the mushy stuff), then she will dump him fairly soon, because he is playing/using her just for sex..

    And if a woman expects just diamonds (walks, attention, nice dinners, movies..etc) without giving some gold (sex), then he (if he has any clue about how to deal with women, though many men do not, especially in North America) will dump her because she is using/playing him just for his personality.

    That should put you to a good start as to how these things are based.

    [–]McRedMan 48 points49 points  (0 children)

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    It's Economics 101:

    To succeed in the SMP, you need to find a match between your value (Your Supply, Woman's Demand) and a woman's value (Her Supply, Your Demand).

    If you supply without receiving anything in return; your time, effort, attention, money, commitment, etc. You are a public good which:
    1) Doesn't ever get you sex
    2) Damages the whole SMP (ergo AFBB and Carousel riding)
    3) Wastes your limited resources on empty investments

    Too many men have White Knight tendencies too ingrained in themselves to see this market failure.
    Don't be one of those men.

    [–]Transformer6 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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    i use to think that by giving women my money and hard earned sweat that i would be a decent person and a good man in their eyes, and that was the right thing a a male , then i stumbled here and realized that i was helping them get fucked my someone else that did not have shit to offer . i was looked at as a wallet , not even as a person. the only time my phone made a sound was for this financial reason and when i even ask a dollar i was looked at in disgust and no one never seemed to have . never me... never again ....

    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

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    [deleted]

      [–]53Pirate 12 points13 points  (0 children)

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      I'm thinking the former doesn't quite "get" the concept of the latter. Getting laid is awesome (usually) but after 10 minutes of obligatory after-sex cuddling I'm generally ready to go back to conquering or building something rather than just lay around the house or go shopping.

      [–]Sturmgeist781 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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      You're right on.

      Getting laid isn't hard for me. Becoming a better man is.

      [–]migukin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      reminds me of my favorite MUSE lyric:

      "I've had recurring nightmares

      that I was loved for who I am

      and missed the opportunity

      to be a better man..."

      [–]vox_veritas 6 points7 points  (1 child)

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      Interesting. I'm a divorce attorney, and I actually encountered this in a case I handled a year or so ago. I was representing the wife, and during one of our meetings she said that her husband had "mentally and verbally abused her." I told her that that wasn't a ground for divorce but could maybe be relevant for other reasons. I asked her to elaborate. She said that she had become depressed, didn't want to have sex, and her husband was complaining that she wasn't saving money like they had agreed to and he was having to spend more money than he had budgeted for.

      She said her husband told her, "Basically, I'm getting fucked without getting fucked."

      Even though she was my client, I could barely contain my laughter.

      [–]dave_is_not_here 5 points6 points  (2 children)

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      Yet plenty of men “put out” the way women want even without getting any sex!

      See I was never full blown sad sack beta, I don't think, because that anyone would need to be taught that statement simply baffles me. Of course you don't keep giving a woman time and attention if she's not putting out! Who the fuck doesn't figure that out their freshman year of high school!?

      I'd have liked to see more of how this could be applied to LTR game. Yes, I see quite obviously how it would be, but as that's where I lack it's what I like to see. I can get them calling me "Sir" by the end of the first night, it's keeping them saying it where I fall down...

      [–]1exit_sandman 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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      See I was never full blown sad sack beta, I don't think, because that anyone would need to be taught that statement simply baffles me. Of course you don't keep giving a woman time and attention if she's not putting out! Who the fuck doesn't figure that out their freshman year of high school!?

      People who are buying the feminist narrative because they've been fed with it from the get-go. The idea that it's possible to supplicate your way to her heart is rather prevalent, and I can't remember even having read the opposite anywhere before I got a hold on PUA literature. Yes, it's that bad, and if you're a particularly gullible type who takes the statements of women at face value, you'll roll with this until the end of your life.

      [–]Sturmgeist781 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      I'd have liked to see more of how this could be applied to LTR game. Yes, I see quite obviously how it would be, but as that's where I lack it's what I like to see. I can get them calling me "Sir" by the end of the first night, it's keeping them saying it where I fall down...

      Getting women to sleep with me or to date me has never been difficult. Maintaining my frame and staying strong in a LTR has been. I have the same issue as you. I know where I need to improve.

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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      Quick example: A girl I hadn't fucked in months wanted me to come to her house early Saturday morning and help her open her pool. It was logistically difficult to get there and there was little chance of sex. I said no. Then Sunday came and she drove to see ME and we had sex "even though she didn't mean to."

      [–]scamper_22 1 point2 points  (2 children)

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      This is absolutely true. Always keep in mind. You are not there to sacrifice for her.

      I know it is almost ingrained in us as men, but while that sacrificial nature is a good trait when dealing with other men, it is not good when dealing with women. If you say you'll fight with your friend side by side, you and your friend both know, that implies that he should be willing to fight by you.

      Women are just not like this. So men, have some self-respect.

      And make sure you get more respect than simply 'having sex'. Women like sex as much as men. It's not like they're giving you anything. Unless all they give you is something they hate to do :P You shouldn't give up your money, time... all just to get sex. She's not giving you anything.

      I'll give you my own example, of which I've now begun correcting. I'm an ex-Muslim, and I don't say that in a casual sense. It's a pretty tough thing from a cultural/personal level. Fortunately for me, all my brothers also left, but my parents still are, and pretty much all the extended family and community are. I've pretty much left the community, but I have told my parents of my lack of belief. In any case, let's just say it is a ridiculously important part of me that I left and have earned my freedom.

      So anyways, my girlfriend at the time was a liberal Muslim girl. She knew I didn't believe at that time. Yet, she drank, had ex-boyfriend... Of course, she hides it all from her parents as she is afraid to face them. All she talked about was how backwards her family is, how she is oppressed...

      In any case, we had some very long serious talks over the course of a year. This is the part that really infuriated me at the start. That I had these many serious talks actually expressing what I wanted in totality. I told her I didn't want a cultural girl. I told her I didn't want some who is going to choose culture and religion over people. I don't want someone who has that value. I already had some bad feelings, because she had previously dated a non-Muslim and kept it from too many people. She is gaining her freedom, I will not be caged again.

      In any case, I bought into the idea that most of what she does, she does just because she is at home. According to the culture, after marriage, she joins my family, and her loyalty will be to me. Keep in mind, she has a good job and her family would not have killed her. It's just a matter of potential embarrassment and loss of relationships. So I took the leap and got married.

      Here's the thing. Would I have let any guy get away with this. Heck no. I would not respect any guy who wasn't committed enough to own his actions.

      But I was pre-redpill. I thought women could understand respect and honor and truth I thought I should be the one to sacrifice so she could have an easy time with her family.

      Then the shock to me came post marriage. She was an active member of her culture and community. I was dragged back into the culture. More important for me though, was that she was a part of the community/culture.

      She was just all too happy to get what she wanted from me, they be happy and joyful with her parents and community.

      All she really wanted to feel good. I know it sounds simple and obvious now, but its true. All women want is to feel good. This is why truth, honor, respect... have no bearing on them.

      For a while I was angry in that I felt lied to and betrayed. I made the effort of having these long deep talks to prevent something I really didn't want.

      but then I understood. It's not just her. It's most women... and some might say most people. The difference being that the conversations I had with her would have worked with a man. It's how I deal with men, honestly and transparently, and it works really well.

      So how could I be angry at a women just for being a women. All they want is to feel good.

      The fault and failure was mine. For not having enough respect for myself. For not trusting my instincts. For believing in male sacrifice.

      I've since stopped doing the cultural and religious things. I plan to continuously assert myself and respect myself more and more.

      My wife has complained I've been distant. But most definitely, MGTOW > beta.

      I was never a beta in the wine and dine sense :P I had a lot of redpill instincts. I really remember one time. She was to come over for hang out... that sex would be a part of. She was upset that I wouldn't pick her up and drop her off. It made her feel dirty. I didn't give in and just said it makes sense rather than me make 4 trips that she makes 2. And it's not like she's giving me anything. She enjoys it too. Yet, I still believed the female brain could be dealt with honestly and justly like dealing with a man.

      Where I go from here, I have no idea. Luckily no kids. I can only change myself. But one thing is clear. I've regained my respect for myself within my self. I have a feeling the next while is going to be more interesting as I assert myself with her family and community. I can't change her if she values the very things I profess strongly against.

      Anyways, the point of all this was to focus on fairness and respect. Not just in the area of sex, but in all areas. In the end, sex is nice, but I can get that anywhere. The lifestyle, and respect, and fairness... are actually more important.

      [–]temparooney 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      Great post. Good luck finding the sort of girl you want, whether it's your current wife or your next one. Are you in a place where you can have more than one wife, or is only for people who are still Muslim?

      [–]cooltrip 4 points5 points  (2 children)

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      Nice, redpillers are starting to see "the light", I love it. Let's hope we don't need to wait 10,000-11,000 years.

      This family of the umbrella "mirror rule" ("I behave to you according to how you behave to me") is specially important on this r/trp subreddit, considering how the mods enjoy making an analogy between TRP and Economics; since, precisely in Economics, nothing is for free: if you want something, then you have to give some other thing in exchange; and if you are willing to give something, then you should demand some other thing in exchange. So, it all fits perfectly.

      Here you have two more examples of the "mirror rule":

      You can also check my comments on my history.

      [–]temparooney 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      I don't fully agree with the mirror rule, at least that's not all there is to it. Because as the man, you must set the tone for the relationship. The mirror rule sounds like you see how she is and act the same back to her. But I'd hope that by showing leadership (and no beta cues) you can draw her into the complementary role. You man, she woman.

      [–]cooltrip 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      Good observation.

      The trade between a man and a woman is: the man gives manhood to the woman, the woman gives womanhood to the man. Which should translates into: the man gives material-economic protection and well-being to the woman (and the children), the woman gives sex to the man (as well as children, child care, more domestic tasks, etc).

      The "mirror rule" so should be understood like: "Don't give or offer whatever you have to give or offer, without the other person giving or offering whatever they have to give or offer". That is, don't offer your manhood to a woman, if she doesn't want to offer her womanhood to you.

      You man, she woman. Don't be a man to her if she doesn't want to be a woman to you.

      But, since you don't want to be anything different to a man, then, if she doesn't want to be a woman to you, then just forget about her.

      [–]swordblade 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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      I've been following this rule ever since swallowing the pill. It makes my wife pissed and I hear it all the time. The, "But she's your wife you have to do what she asks." Or the, "She's your wife you have to treat her well even if she treats you badly." Lastly, the, "she controls the house not you."

      All those similar phrases make me laugh in the faces of those who said them. I now command respect and will not downgrade myself again as I used to be a "nice guy" doing everything I could in hopes of my desires being fulfilled.

      [–]Karol754 5 points6 points  (11 children)

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      I like this, nice and simple and you cant misunderstand it. Thanks OP.

      [–]1Zackcid 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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      Hip-hop fans will appreciate this relevant RP music video about fux and bucks:

      E-40 Feat. Too Short "Bitch"

      [–]dallz_beep[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      Great song. Could do without all the dumbass crime glorification lyrics but the main message is perfectly Red Pill.

      [–]myschadenfreude 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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      Nice guys = disrespected sluts, putting out for nothing in return.

      EDIT: The Rule is within the context of sexual strategy, which is what this subforum is about. I'm specifically referring to men who want to have sex with women. Of course there are other ways of interacting with women. I'm talking about getting laid here. Foolishly, I assumed this was obvious.

      This holds true for all relationships. If you are not a 50/50 partner, you are being taken advantage of. If you allow anyone to take more than they give, you are being taken advantage of. Simple.

      Look at your life and eliminate people who routinely steal time/resources/emotional support from you and eliminate them. (*everyone has a run where they need support, I'm talking habitual takers)

      [–]temparooney 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      There are other ways of interacting with women, if for example you're both married to other partners and you're not interested in cheating.

      But between a single man and a single woman, there is generally a sexual subtext. (maybe between any man and any woman.) If the man doesn't hold frame, the woman will float up to the superior position, and the man will be in her friendzone. But if he does hold frame, she'll be very nice to him because she'll feel inferior.

      Even if they've never had sex, or sex has never been proposed by one and rejected by the other, I think there's always a vibe of which one could possibly have sex with the other if he/she wanted it. If he could have sex with her, and they haven't fucked, it probably means she could not have sex with him. And vice versa.

      [–]explicit_innuendo 6 points7 points  (3 children)

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      Generally true, though I'd suggest that in the early stages things might be a bit different. In the US, if you stick around past the 3'rd date without getting laid, you are a chump.

      In other places, that number is flexible - where I live, it doesn't matter how bad she wants your cock. She almost certainly lives with her family and they keep a watchful eye on her. Some years ago I dated a girl in an Islamic country who shyly hinted to me on our second date that she might be less experienced than me. I found out on maybe the 4th or 5th date that "less experienced" meant virgin. She took a little time, but was one of the nicest LTRs I've ever had. Might have married her if I didn't screw things up.

      tl;dr; If she's Muslim/Amish/Mormon, lives with her parents, and is not supposed to talk to boys, adjust The Rule a bit.

      [–]prune-juice -1 points0 points  (2 children)

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      The problem with this Rule in general is that you'll be selecting for sluts only, and LTR-worthy women will expect more. Some level of male resources (money, attention, validation, protection, etc) almost always predates sex, unless the woman is a complete slut that will sleep with you without even knowing your name. First come dates and rapport-building, then comes sex.

      So yes, there may be an exchange, but that exchange doesn't happen in real time. And if she gives you sex first, before you give her dates/attention, she's probably given it to many, many men before you unless you're George Clooney and she's a 5/10.

      [–]temparooney 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      You start out OK with the first clause of the first sentence, but then the rest of your post is COMPLETELY WRONG. You beta!

      You don't pay for sex. You don't provide male resources to get sex. Primarily because it doesn't work. Provide the resources, she'll assume her place on the pedestal, her pussy will turn to ice and she'll become judgmental to you.

      [–]prune-juice 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      Well that's where "chemistry" enters in. You may be paying for sex ultimately, in the most logical conclusive motivator for your actions, but if you make the woman feel like that's what you're doing, she's likely to close up.

      Women are super sensitive to feeling like the guy is paying for sex. We want to feel like there's something else beneath the surface that you're ultimately going for, aside from sex. Call it an ego thing, but it's probably similar to how men are turned off at the idea of being seen as walking wallets and that their woman will stop sleeping with him as soon as he takes a paycut.

      The smoothest way I've had it done is that the guy did pay for everything, but he played it off as "I pay for my friends all the time, it's nbd" and I watched him be giving to his male friends. It just felt like he was naturally a generous person, so I felt relaxed and not like having to defend my honor or w/e. I gave it up gladly, he slutzoned me, I broke it off eventually and while I would have done things differently now, I don't resent him or harbor ill will. This is the kind of guy I'd greet with a friendly hug if I saw him in public now.

      The most awkward way I've had it done is with a guy who I've been friends with for years who all of a sudden saw an opening when I became single recently, and started offering to pay for dinners that I knew were out of his character/preferred budget. We went out for fast food countless times as friends, and he never paid for me. As soon as I became single, he started trying to pay for fancier dinners and it was very obvious that he was investing in sex after all these years because now it's more likely than ever. I never let him pay for me because it just felt wrong and I didn't know why at the time. I reluctantly gave it up out of pity and guilt, and it was shitty and awkward to the point where I finally mustered the balls to stop seeing him because "we're never going to love each other". This is the only relationship that I regret and he's the kind of guy I'd actively avoid and pretend not to notice on the street.

      So I guess in conclusion, I would advise that you need to decide if you're a generous-type or a Dutch-type and then stick with it and treat all people the same. If you try to calibrate how much $$$ to give out based on likelihood for sex, women might sense that you have ulterior motives behind your "generosity" and the anti-slut defense will set in.

      [–]skinninja 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      props for mentioning Patrice Oneal! i listen to old recordings of him all the time from the Black Phillip show.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      This post needs to be required reading.

      [–]yummyluckycharms 1 point2 points  (7 children)

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      This isnt red pill advice - the rule of reciprocity is universal, cross cultural, and timeless. What has happened in modern society is that reciprocity has been actively discouraged - even naively.

      Naive example:

      Paying it forward - person a doesn't get anything from giving to person b, as person b is paying it foward to person c. Yet, person A is encouraged to give - why?

      Explicit example:

      Male chivalry - a man is expected to sacrifice just because he's a man. I dont think I need to elaborate on how stupid self sacrifice is in light of the cultural milieu that men operate in today....

      P.S the MGTOW isn't a bad movement, and I dont understand why people are crushing on them. We need to support our fellow man, not rip him apart.

      [–]cooltrip 0 points1 point  (6 children)

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      Blue pill takes the "rule of NON-reciprocity" as its sole, supreme and foundational axiom: betas treat ("game") women nice BECAUSE women treat betas bad. The meaner the women's treatment to betas, the nicer the betas' treatment ("game") to women. This beta honorless unworthy behavior ("game", approaching, etc...) is the very basis of female entitlement, and this is why women ride the Alpha cock carousel, etc...

      So, it is not a trivial subject. It is trivial to optionful Alpha, but it is not to needy worthless betas.

      [–]yummyluckycharms 0 points1 point  (5 children)

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      I dont think MGTOW could be considered betas - they aren't going out of their way to pick up women. If anything, their indifference and pursuit of other things would make them omegas.

      [–]cooltrip 1 point2 points  (4 children)

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      I don't think non-neediness regarding something as inferior as women can be considered omega; if anything, it should be considered quite Alpha, since women need men Alpha infinitely more than Alpha needs women (sex is the only thing that Alpha can get from women; but women get their own survival from Alpha; so Alpha is a huge deal for women, since thanks to Alpha women get their survival and their well-being just for sex).

      [–]yummyluckycharms -1 points0 points  (3 children)

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      I believe the key difference between alpha and omega is the amount of energy that is used to pursue women. Alpha devotes some energy to it - omegas dont.

      Ie. an alpha would go and do a series of day time approaches while an omega would be content to hang out and play computer games.

      [–]cooltrip 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      We don't share the same viewpoint.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      The point of MGTOW is to REMOVE the stigma that if a man isn't chasing/getting pussy then he's somehow worth less than a man who is. Some men actually just like other things more than sex, and they get tired of being shamed for it.

      Here's MGTOW: "I just spent all day playing games and reading my favorite book. It's been a great day!"

      Here's Blue Pill: "I just spent all day playing games and reading my favorite book. WHY AREN'T GIRLS CALLING ME? ;_;"

      [–]cooltrip 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      Here's Alpha: "I just spent all day playing games and reading my favorite book. It's been a great day! However those girls have been all day texting me because they want to have sex with me; having a foursome would be fun now; I'll respond to three of those girls now and I'll have another foursome today like the one I had yesterday."

      [–]laere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      How does this pertain to male and female "friendships?"

      I know there are guys here that have female friends. And I know for a fact this rule then would still apply, however, wouldn't the fact that you're meeting and hanging out with a female friend be giving them attention? What as a man then would they provide you in return?

      For example:

      I went to a concert this past month with a female friend. We had a great time. I drove, she always kept conversation going, bought me a beer at the concert, paid for a full tank of gas, and offered to drive me back (broke my glasses and was basically blind). I paid for dinner, and basically had fun with her. Got her into crowd surfing, and mosh pits, etc.

      I never once discussed any of her emotional bullshit (though, she never brought any up) and we just talked about music, teased around, talked about childhoods, etc. I never compliment her, never validate her, or come to her aid and fix all her problems. Nor do I expect the same from her.

      However, I go weeks without talking to her, and sometimes it may feel one-sided, since she never really initiates wanting to hang out (not a big deal, but for the sake of this thread). Should I ALWAYS be initiating hanging out then? Even in all general social situations?

      Now would this be considered an actual mutual friendship then? Or some one-sided bullshit?

      [–]patpend 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      Is the fucking you are getting, worth the fucking you are getting...

      [–]sexualstrategy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      Thank you for helping the new guys with this simplicity. For everyone getting all bent on semantics, OP's rule is about value at it's core.

      Make sure you are getting what you want from the relationship before giving yourself back into it. For some men this is sex for others, I guess they just want friends according to the comments.

      Just be careful to not be her whipping boy when times get tough because that's what her girls and her boyfriend are for, you are still a man and don't need to deal with crying over spilled alpha milk unless you are getting sex out of it like her boyfriend does.

      [–]Xiudo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      If every man followed The Rule

      Piff, ya right dream on buddy

      [–]Summertime_Dimes 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      Damn fine job, OP. This rule alone changed my entire existence about 24 months back. I am willing to give good conversation, but nothing more without reciprocity.

      When you respect yourself, value yourself, and project that value people will respond in kind, brah. Fine job.

      [–]drkstrs 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      Women's allure is an illusion, one that countless women's magazines and groups cater to. They are constantly looking for male validation based on their looks, meanwhile pretending that most men are not worthy of their interaction if they don't "measure up". (Now I'm not saying ALL Women, but you know which ones I mean... it is a very large number). Not getting attention is devastating to them, if you don't give it they will try to send scorn your way, they will pretend it's YOU that wasn't worthy. They want you to be WHAT they WANT, instead of being yourself. But you can laugh it off pretty easily. And you don't have to give it to them. You can see right thru it if you try. It's a massive INDUSTRY and set of lies and hardcore DEPENDENCY at root. They are pawns of advertising. Men didn't make them this way, they made themselves this way. It's self reinforcing behavior. Now I'm not saying women shouldn't think about their looks at all, but there are many who it's all they really have! And they use it as a weapon. If you learn to recognize it, you can walk right past them. In fact, you may find yourself pitying them for their dependency and narcissism which does not make them strong, only predatory on those who are weak.

      [–]2asd1100 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      No there aren't other ways of interacting with women, you can interact with people in a wide varity of ways, but if she is on your radar as a woman you can't fake it.

      Women do this to, from the second she saw you she either tough of you as a person or a man.

      Now a man and a woman can fake it and interact like gender neutral people(for the sake of society the HR department and prior comitments), but if the interest is there faking it is just PG-13 bullshit. You can never use sexually explicit words and flirt your pants off. In fact listen in on a atractive womens conversation and see how specific and particular it is.

      Words are just a means of comunication, they rarely transmit exclusively the message of that interaction, this is especially true for women. Stop behaving like autistic children after their parents wedding aniversary and start joining the conversation that happens between the lines.

      I am amased at how many people that comment in this sub still believe in santa claus and asexual interactions between sexually atractive adults.

      [–]through_a_ways 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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      Some people criticize MGTOW, saying most of them are incel. So what?

      Exactly. So what?

      Imagine the following scenario:

      Poor/middle class person complains about income inequality, lobbyists, and regulatory capture.

      Rich person says "you're just bitter because you can't make a lot of money", and their arguments are dismissed.

      The only reason this doesn't happen is because rich people make up a vanishingly small minority of the population, and so can't get away with that shit, whereas women make up 50% of the population, so stuff like feminism can become widespread.

      And women are somewhat analogous to rich people, from a standpoint of reproductive value.

      [–]alreadyredschool 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      I call them easy sluts.

      Aren't those guys time hoes?

      [–]hamstercide 1 point2 points  (2 children)

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      My question is who should be the first to put out? Because if neither man nor woman does you are stuck at a standstill.

      [–]RebootedMale 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      My question is who should be the first to put out? Because if neither man nor woman does you are stuck at a standstill.

      You can "put out first" if she is begging for it.

      Make her tell you how wet you make her and how much she wants it.

      [–]dallz_beep[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      I will certainly pay attention to a girl if I'm into her and I believe there's a good chance of fucking her. I might even buy a girl a drink if my intuition tells me it will likely lead to a bang. Otherwise, I give them nothing. They can dance up on a table wearing barely any clothes for all I care. I simply don't pay attention. It's the "be desireless" rule from Tao of Steve.

      [–]ADarkerNight 1 point2 points  (30 children)

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      I don't particularly care for rules. You can get plenty of benefit from women without fucking them.

      The orbiting, beta bucks, one-sided relationships, etc. don't happen because there is no reason to continue a situation without benefits. Thinking that the only benefit that women can offer is sex, that's a pretty narrow viewpoint.

      Not being able to appreciate girls for anything more than a few fuck holes is indicative of a toxic overall mentality towards females. It's no wonder MGTOW and the rest are voluntarily celibate if that is how they think about women. It's always going to be easier to get off with your hand than it will be to seduce a chick.

      Personally, I enjoy the challenge. It's one of life's many pleasures.

      [–]ablank1313 44 points45 points  (7 children)

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      I think that the larger takeaway from the post is that if you aren't getting what you want, don't give up what she wants for free. If you want sex, then go after sex. If you want something else than go after that. Don't be an orbiter is OPs main point. It isn't rational from a guys standpoint to give so much and get nothing in return, simple economics.

      [–]ADarkerNight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      I agree. The thing with MGTOW is that it seems they can't get what they want from women, even when they try. So they would rather not go after them at all, the reactionary inverse of giving so much and getting nothing in return. Maybe they are deluding themselves about what they really want. Or not, in which case more gene pool for me.

      [–]Burner1701 -4 points-3 points  (5 children)

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      I think OP is just talking about sex.

      [–]cdlawton07 10 points11 points  (2 children)

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      Read to me that OP is talking about more than just sex. If she's not putting out sexually, you don't put out financially, emotionally, etc...

      [–]Burner1701 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      Yes, but it's only about sex...... from her.

      [–]avagacadabra 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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      Was OP supposed to cover every scenario? Sex is a good place to establish the rule, because most men struggle to get the amount of sex they want from their long term SO.

      [–]ohshitmyfeelings 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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      I doubt that. Sex is just an example here. If what you wanted were, say, money instead of sex, then you need to stop giving if you don't get what you want. I think this is a great rule for any social (or economic) interaction, really. Everything is a transaction. It's about balance. It's about not selling yourself short. It's about return on investment.

      [–]ADarkerNight 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      OP's RULE is fuck me or gtfo...

      [–]2asd1100 7 points8 points  (4 children)

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      in the early stages do not delude yourself in thinking there is more than sex, if you have to wait for it it's less about you respecting her and more about her not respecting you.

      You can get plenty of benefit from women without fucking them.

      you don't say, like what? their complaints, their presence, they opinions, their honesty, their advice, their needyness?

      Get in the game or STFU! we are talking about different sports here.

      Until you get the pussy you are not a man from her point of view, you are a plaything. After you fucked, you can actually explore one another as people, but until then it's all bullshit. That challenge is bullshit, that intimacy and actual human conection after she finished with the games that is one of lifes pleasures.

      [–]squirrellywhirly 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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      I'm offended as a woman that apparently these vile, backstabbing bitches exist. We are not all of this mindset, and you're really missing out on some quality women who will never cause this level of bitterness. You wonder why you attract bitches? It's because of attitudes like this. It's also largely because of where you're meeting these women. Quality women are not likely to be at the bar, they're more likely to be working on something for a charity she volunteers for, at the gym, in a library, and just generally avoiding places that attract scum from both genders.

      If you're fine with being with nothing but women who think like this, that is on you.

      [–]2asd1100 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      First of all, we don't care abouzt your gender here, your opinion is just that, a human being opinion. Having a pussy does make your opinion more valid.

      You say mindset, mindset is a cognitive contruct you built consciously. You judge people based on that, I don't that, doesn't matter.

      When I say plaything that is a generalisation, it can mean boy toy for a milf, emotional suportive partner for a womens issues major and baby daddy for a smart college girl and so on, you are not actually a opened and honest human being until you fucked a guy(you hopefully are atracted to). By atracted I mean you don't want him to make you breakfast or whatch rom coms you just want to fuck him. Until that point your "mindsets" interact, your outward personas, and I don't give a fuck about them, if you lived in russia you would be homophobic and nationalist, in america you are OWS and vegan, but you would still be the same person underneath. That is what a man must conquer, fall in love with, that is one of loves pleasures.

      Jumping trough hoops your construct made is bullshit, to prove myself is bullshit, you know it, i know it, if you are testing me I am your puppy not a man you want to ride and hopefully find out is actually a decent human being afterwards.

      I attract all kinds of women, bitches are just more honest, and fun.

      I don't do night game, sorry missed me with that one. Also charity workers are horrible self-righteous egotistical people, good for a woman, bad for a man. But our equivalent is shelters and nursing homes.

      Again, you don't THINK like this, that is how you emotionally process the world, I know I have a dick and I have no right to say what you FEEL. but next time your brain tells you something but your hearth really isn't into it make a fake account and ask for a friend on /r/asktrp. And you will be amazed at how accurate our theories are in describing and explaining your emotions.

      [–]squirrellywhirly 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      Thanks for the thoughtful reply, actually!

      [–]ADarkerNight -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

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      Get in the game or STFU! we are talking about different sports here.

      Maybe I just have an abnormal love for female company. Some of my most entertaining girls are the ones I LJBF from the start. They're the man-eaters, and the super trouble ones, and the ridiculous prudes. They all get friendzoned. Then the sexual tension just builds and builds until they are jumping your bones. Their boyfriend drops them off after work to "hang with their bestie." He comes and picks her up the next afternoon too. "Besties," girl thing lingo code for "guy I fucked on every flat surface of his house."

      On second thought, you're probably right, this is a whole different sport.

      [–]1exit_sandman 1 point2 points  (6 children)

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      The orbiting, beta bucks, one-sided relationships, etc. don't happen because there is no reason to continue a situation without benefits. Thinking that the only benefit that women can offer is sex, that's a pretty narrow viewpoint.

      It's a pretty narrow viewpoint to assume it's only about sex - it's about intimacy, it's about relationship, it's about sharing your life with another person who shares her life with yours (written down, it sounds really fruity); and of course this includes sex. Just like a woman who puts out to a guy she's interested in doesn't just do so because she wants to coax a guy into commitment, but because she most likely wants it herself - though preferably within the confines of a relationship.

      However, without the prospect of any intimacy whatsoever, there wouldn't be a point in treating a woman like one would treat a girlfriend, would it?

      [–]DanG3 1 point2 points  (3 children)

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      Re: "It's a pretty narrow viewpoint to assume it's only about sex - it's about intimacy, it's about relationship, it's about sharing your life with another person who shares her life with yours ... "

      It's a fine line marking the edge of a slippery slope. There are scores of wealthy subdivisions full of men providers who's wives had no problem using sex to establish the "relationship." Then, the sex dried up. Why? Because (he who should have been) the leader in the relationship failed to collect on/enforce his interest in the relationship - sex. Sure, she has the power divorce rape on her side, but if he starts hamstering (or believing her shit) that it's about the relationship ... sharing ... intimacy ... he just becomes another hubby of conversation for the wives luncheons as they brag about how long it has been since they had sex ... with their husband.

      [–]squirrellywhirly 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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      he just becomes another hubby of conversation for the wives luncheons as they brag about how long it has been since they had sex ... with their husband.

      You are really naive if you think women don't want sex either. I've been party to similar conversations and believe me, it wasn't bragging. It was complaining about how long it had been. These women weren't sure that their man was even still interested in them that way after childbirth, or because he had started working later and missing things like dates.

      Sex drying up is a two way street and none of the blame should be placed solely on either party's shoulders. It's unfair and intellectually dishonest. After all, it takes two.

      [–]DanG3 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      Thank you for collaborating the existence of such conversations. They can be bragging sessions as well, or at least veiled as such. You will notice I used the phrase/concept "Because (he who should have been) the leader in the relationship failed to collect on/enforce his interest in the relationship - sex." That phase covers a lot of territory, including the husband's physical and mental attractiveness, leadership in defining/calibrating fitness/attractiveness in the relationship, (yes) his initiation, etc., for which HE is responsible (most of the time). But, in the limited context of THIS thread, if she (as the gate keeper of sex) is saying "no," then he (as the gatekeeper to relationship comfort, status, security, companionship, etc.) MUST to be saying "no" as well - "following the Rule" - Because that was/is the original basis of the relationship. Problem is, that is not what happens when the man is blue pill ... or if he listens to what his BP wife/gf says she "needs" in order to feel like having sex with him.

      [–]squirrellywhirly 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      I think it's a little dishonest to put the burden of being the "gatekeeper to sex" on the woman's shoulders alone, just as I think that it's wrong to put the burden of being the gatekeeper to all of the things you listed solely on the man's shoulders. I'll probably get downvoted like hell for this, but I'm going to share a little bit of my experience (and the source of my confusion/intrigue. I am honestly interested in this point of view.)

      I have always been a very sexual, emotionally secure and rather balanced person. I'm a good looking girl, always have been, but I've also always been on the very nerdy side. I've been friendzoned so many times, by the hot nerdy, nice guys who saw me as "one of the guys" or "like a little sister". I can sort of understand how frustrating it is to be put in a situation like that. I was giving them everything. I gave them validation, I listened to them moan about how girls played games and how their girlfriends were lame for being pissed that he wanted to play Magic, or some other bullshit. Been there.

      Fast forward a few years and I have become very self assured because I learned early that I had to be, in order to get anywhere in life. I couldn't expect validation from a man in any capacity and I sure as hell would never depend on one for financial support- in fact, in all of my adult relationships, I was the one who financially supported us. I'm finding it hard to figure out where a woman like me fits into this sort of thing. I do not need a man's money, attention, status, security, etc. I simply want a relationship based on a mutual respect and companionship. I don't need him to jump through any hoops in order for me to jump into bed with him, nor do I use sex as a weapon or a bargaining chip- simply because I think that's morally wrong. Once attraction is there, it's there for me.

      Now here's where I've had people jump down my throat before. Getting me to become attracted to a man is easy, all it takes is me getting to know him, and getting a feel for his character. I avoid bars, and would rather volunteer, so most of the guys I meet nowadays are either from school or from some community project I'm working on. It lets you get a great idea of what kind of person you're dealing with, in so many ways. For me, that's what matters most. Do I prefer a partner who takes care of themselves physically? Yes. I spend hours in the gym working to keep my figure and if you like it, I would like you to do the same. Reciprocation. I've always tried to model my relationships on that alone. Simple reciprocation.

      So I guess, when broken down like you just did, I don't at all disagree with this stance. I might be taken aback at how harsh it can sound, and especially because I have no idea where a woman like me fits into the equation. I agree, if you have a partner that's not putting forth what you are (or similarly weighted things- it's different for everyone), you shouldn't put forth those things either.

      [–]ADarkerNight -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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      OP says no intimacy, no anything. I'm thinking OP has a short definition of intimacy: sex. Anything can be intimate if you make it. But since OP is fixated on the end goal of sex, he's having a hard time getting there, missing all the rungs of the ladder.

      [–]olivermihoff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      Agreed, OP's post looks quite agro to me, but it might just be how redpill talks about things... I'm not into devising terminology and a road map to successful relationships because everyone is different and unpredictable. There can't be a PUA-style roadmap to success in life because of that. A man should be assertive and a leader, but a woman should always have a right to choose her mates. If you get played, it's your fault. I agree though that men should always be on top of negotiating something meaningful or useful out of a relationship with a woman...

      I have a lady friend that cooks for me and gives me back rubs on occasion for example; We're not dating because I'm not interested in her that way, but it's a great relationship to tide me through single periods. In exchange for her help, I fix things in her house and give her business/life advice. It's a pretty good trade off if you ask me, no expectations.

      If I was dating a woman, the expectation is not for sex, it's about finding compatibility. If sex doesn't evolve, I can be her friend, but she needs to find someone else to support her financially and emotionally other than me. I don't play "pseudo-boyfriend" if I'm not her actual boyfriend. I don't stop interest in all other women for one until there's a ring on my finger (mutual commitment). That makes my relationships with women I know much more simple and less dramatic, and they appreciate me for not placing expectations on them. If they need me to help them, I.E. fixing a flat tire, or buying them stuff, I selectively help based on whether or not they would do the same for me, that way I get to observe their character (and attraction to me) without building resentment, and I don't over-invest my time and attention in them just to be let down. If they're motivated by sexual attraction, they always end up letting me know.

      [–]hungoverseal -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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      Glad someone said this!

      [–]satur9 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

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      Guys like you make it harder for the rest of us.

      [–]omglazers 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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      I find the whole MGTOW concept really unappealing (No sex? Abandoning society? I'm a child of modernity, it's not happening) but you are completely right -- better MGTOW and abandoned than ending up as an abused beta-orbiter. That said, neither is a good outcome to me.

      [–]dallz_beep[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      MGTOW does not mean no sex, except in some circumstances. You might want to understand what it actually is because calling them creepers.

      [–]omglazers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      I find the whole thing a little absurd anyway, but duly xhanged

      [–]Machiavellian_phd 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      I have yet to see any science in any thread listed her. Believe me I've looked. However, I have found material that directly contradicts results from various scientific studies. If we could get the redpill mastermind to incorporate some scientific wisdom it would be awesome! Though when it comes to topics of sex many fields of science tend to tread lightly. Flibanserin comes to mind. I had such high hopes for that...

      [–]csmass 0 points1 point  (3 children)

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      Quick rant: Some people criticize MGTOW, saying most of them are incel. So what? If you don’t get any, then not giving any in return is the perfect response. They are following The Rule. Of course we as a community want to help out our fellow man, but let’s face it, we can’t all be alpha males. Being Mr. Alpha Fux might be better, but for those who are set in their unsexy ways, MGTOW > beta orbiter any day of the week.'"

      Who thinks it is bad to be a MGTOW? Look, being alpha isn't about fucking women, it is about being a self-reliant, strong-minded man that can handle himself in many situations in life. Learning pickup lines and how to whisper in a girl's ear you want to fuck her doesn't make you alpha, it makes you nothing other than a man.

      There is more to life than sex and I think most of the RP community needs to get over their rage from being rejected so many times, cheated on, or friend-zoned and unite to make men stronger as a whole. Who cares about a stupid hole? The only reason it holds any power is our social conditioning. I say, be yourself and don't criticize any man that is going his own way, whatever that is.

      [–]53Pirate 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      "Learning pickup lines and how to whisper in a girl's ear you want to fuck her doesn't make you alpha, it makes you nothing other than a man. "

      I think pretty much every guy's got an alpha side to him, whether he lives it or not.

      Live your alpha & you don't need to memorize pick-up lines.

      [–]ThePickupLineBot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      Is there an airport near by or is that my heart taking off?

      [–]drkstrs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      There is a subset of MGTOW that has actually transcended alpha. They are so alpha they are bored of alpha.

      [–]BluepillProfessor 0 points1 point  (3 children)

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      Officially incorporating this into my 20+ year marriage.

      She either puts out voluntarily and eagerly....or fuck her. World of Warcraft beats watching her obsess over Criminal Minds anyway. No hugs, no acknowledgement of her existence unless the sex is happening. If she doesn't put out, I will not be making an effort. Fuck me or fuck her, as always her choice.

      [–]53Pirate -1 points0 points  (2 children)

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      "World of Warcraft?" Seriously? How old are you? 20 year marriage you gotta be 38 minimum.

      Why shouldn't I be surprised if she doesn't want to fuck you? I mean, no offense intended man, but seriously? "World of Warcraft?"

      [–]BluepillProfessor -1 points0 points  (1 child)

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      To be fair I was comparing WOW to the chick bait TV series "Criminal Minds" so I stand by the claim.

      Do you object to the rest of the post or you just can't stand massively multiplayer games? And yah, mid 40's. So? Is your point no wife should fuck a husband who plays World or Warcraft of did you have a serious argument?

      [–]53Pirate -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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      No argument, dude. Just I've seen a lot of people who are pretty much addicted to those kind of games, and it's kinda pathetic.

      But yeah ... if she doesn't truly & enthusiastically want to jump on your dick, then fuck her. I've been there done that. But if that be the case, you also gotta ask yourself why that is.

      [–]paradox_life -1 points0 points  (9 children)

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      Some people criticize MGTOW, saying most of them are incel. So what? If you don’t get any, then not giving any in return is the perfect response.

      So let's compare the 2:

      1. Beta bux, orbiter, emotional tampon
      2. MGTOW(the wrong way) - world of warcraft, porn, junk food, tv, depressive sadness sunk in alcohol.

      In my head both are equally pathetic, but I'll tell you one thing - the best potential to get out of this mess is for the beta bux, he only needs to change his mindset and stop chasing women and flip the script, focusing his time and energy on improving themselves. The other guy is a genuine hardcase that will need years and years of work to get a fuckable status(decent SMV).

      [–]53Pirate -1 points0 points  (8 children)

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      I'm kinda new to this whole "red pill" scene on the internet - & from what I've read I guess I can assess myself as having been 70% red-pill & 30% blue-pill most of my life.

      But I just don't "get" this whole MGTOW celibacy thing? What's that about? Why would any man want to give up on fucking women?

      [–]16 Endorsed ContributorCyralea 8 points9 points  (0 children)

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      Cost-benefit ratio. I'm not MGTOW, but my understanding of it is that the work involved in obtaining pussy far outweighs the joy of getting it. The closest I've come to understanding the mindset is when I used to spin plates, as many as 4 at one time. It was exhausting managing them all, to the point where I started dropping some just to get some time back.

      [–]paradox_life -4 points-3 points  (6 children)

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      Why would any man want to give up on fucking women?

      Simply because they can't get any, frustrated by either being friendzoned by the "one" in their life or being rejected by any girl they approach in any kind of situation. I would say it's unhealthy denial of reality and putting the blame on women instead of themselves as if the world owes them something. The excuse is "well, women don't do shit and they get all this free stuff only because of their looks". Well ... yeah, but that's reality bro, take it or leave it. It's really simple - either improve your SMV(or precieved SMV) or you will make love to your hand for the rest of your life.

      [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (5 children)

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      Incorrect. The idea of MGTOW has to do with cost vs. benefit. Simply put, some guys just get tired of playing the game. I myself have been in bed with a pornstar, and at times I've been almost literally drowning in pussy. I'm not really MGTOW, but in general what I have to put into getting pussy is not worth what I get out of it.

      And if you think MGTOW are against fucking...nope. Almost all of them are in favor of legalizing prostitution. Would you rather continue jumping through all the hoops that women make you (especially as you begin to age), or would you rather pay a few hundred bucks for a woman that YOU choose who is most likely better in bed than other women cause she actually has an incentive to be?

      [–]paradox_life -1 points0 points  (4 children)

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      That implies that the only thing that attracts women is money which is WRONG. You don't jump through her hoops, you create hoops for her to jump to you. Prostitution is fucked up. There is no genuine attraction there. She sucks your cock and your cock plays the role of the hoop she must jump through to get to the money. Now is that what you see yourself as? Cuz it is pathetic. That's why game is the answer - becoming more grounded, free to express yourself, build self respect, get more fit, build a rotation and become the prize. The fucked up thing about money is that it makes you lazy and you always feel the void inside because no matter how many prostitutes or gold diggers you pump and dump, you never feel the awesomeness of women competing for you cuz you're the prize AND NOT THE FUCKING MONEY. Money will get you pussy, no doubt, but that's not all she wrote as far as fulfillment goes.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

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      I'm well aware that money is not the sole attractor of women, trust me I know the game and I play it well. I've attracted my share of women, and I in no way believe that money/prostitution are a replacement for real-life attraction.

      And those hoops that you make women jump through? Those things that attract them? That's work. And sometimes people get burned out and just want to get their rocks off. Nobody's in it for the connection, man.

      Do really think that random bar hookups have genuine attraction? What about when people are cheating? What about revenge sex? What about pretending to like the sex so you can benefit from a person? Sex is just sex, whether you "get it" or not has no reflection on your worth as a person. You don't get sex because you are a prize, you get sex because you appear like a prize.

      [–]paradox_life -1 points0 points  (2 children)

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      Do really think that random bar hookups have genuine attraction?

      Absolutely. I'm not talking about drunk ONS of course. But the reason she sleeps with you is that she sees you as alpha, not to get the money and run.

      What about when people are cheating?

      A woman will NEVER cheat(at least emotionally) on a guy that she chases(has invested a lot) and sees him as alpha. Period. She might get some emotional tampons that she leads on and uses for money and favors, but will continue to chase the alpha.

      What about pretending to like the sex so you can benefit from a person?

      That only happens when you put money or beta favors in the equation.

      Sex is just sex

      Wrong. Sex with a prostitute cannot be compared to a woman that chases you hard and wants that D anytime you are willing to give it to her. A prostitute will be sucking your cock and think "when will this end so I can get the money", she cannot invest emotionally. A girl that sees you as the prize and has emotionally invested in you will give you the best sex she can. Some people don't even know what dominant and emotional sex is exactly because they think money is what makes them enough.

      What I'm essentially saying is that sex with prostitutes is beta. She doesn't feel attraction, she feels like she has to do it. That is the root of the problems you mentioned.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

      "Sex with a prostitute cannot be compared to a woman that chases you hard and wants that D anytime you are willing to give it to her."

      No, it can't. But some guys feel as if the effort they put in to playing the game and acting alpha makes the end result undesirable, hollow, and meaningless, regardless of how often they're getting laid. If you don't even like playing the game, why worry about winning it? That's not beta, that's putting your happiness above the validation of others.

      "What I'm essentially saying is that sex with prostitutes is beta."

      Do you say the same thing when it's a handicapped guy? What would you say if the guy in question doesn't even care if the woman is into it or not and he just needs a wet hole every once a while to get his needs met? How about someone who is very sexually inexperienced and needs a few bangs to raise his morale so that he can act more alpha in the future? What if you're old and can't even get it up anymore, but you still just want to see a beautiful, naked woman who treats you like a king, even just for a little while?

      You know what alpha is? It's getting your needs met. Not all men's needs revolve around having plates wanting your dick all the time. It's great if you got that, man, more power to you. Some guys just don't care, though. Is it lazy? Maybe, but no more lazy than not caring about math and never studying it.

      [–]paradox_life 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      You know what alpha is? It's getting your needs met.

      I disagree. The guy sitting in front of the computer all day playing video games, jacking it to porn, eating junk food and so on... CONSTANTLY gets his needs met. Is he alpha? Fuck no, he's not even beta, he's omega. Alpha means to possess qualities that are biologically perceived as high value. Being strong, masculine, decisive, with a strong sense of reality and boundaries, calm, never reacting but responding. These are qualities very few possess and chicks melt in a presence of such a man. Prostitutes will get needs met for sure, but the feeling is not much different than jacking it to porn. You don't really feel like a king.

      Now I'm not judging anyone, I'm just stating what is achievable if you truly want to be treated like a king(prize), not a hoop for whores to jump over to get the prize(money).

      Other than that I agree with you, it's not for everyone and sex could be seen as just another need to be met, not something to be passionate about.

      [–]hamstercide -1 points0 points  (4 children)

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      Instead of this "me, me, me!" attitude, is it not better to be a giving, loving person who gives of his own heart regardless of the outcome and does so naturally, and is always happy and radiating joy, rather than keeping tally of every single slight against him? To me the latter attitude leads to bitterness and will drive you insane. Maybe this isn't so mutually exclusive with what OP was saying, however - just focus your love and kindness somewhere else, where it is more fruitful.

      [–]pachan 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      Instead of this "me, me, me!" attitude, is it not better to be a giving, loving person who gives of his own heart regardless of the outcome and does so naturally, and is always happy and radiating joy, rather than keeping tally of every single slight against him?

      have fun being taken advantage of and used and thrn discarded without getting anything in return.

      why dont you be loving and giving to people who are loving and giving to you, instead of just everybody without expecting something back.

      we are not living in a disney cartoon.

      [–]hamstercide -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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      And you're not John Rambo. Hell, things didn't even work out well for Rambo. Who would people rather be around, someone giving and positive or someone they perceive as selfish? Whose lives would they rather be part of? If a girl wants to fuck you you don't ruin anything by being good to her. If she was into you and you come off as only self-interested and spiteful, she will change her mind. The same applies to fucking; don't expect your new booty call to answer if the last time you were a 2-pump chump and she didn't get off. Why would she? What's in it for her? The same applies to working relationships. What kind of employee do you want, someone who is proactive, takes initiative and gets things done even of his own accord or someone who drags his feet keeping his talent to himself, is distrustful and vengeful, and will only do something if he thinks it will get him promoted? I invite you to perform your own social experiments. Selfish people get avoided and cut off, giving altruistic people are repeatedly called back. If an investment doesn't work out for you you can always choose to invest somewhere else, but do so with a smile. Be like Buddha and Jesus, not Ebeneezer Scrooge.

      [–]dallz_beep[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      Clearly you have missed the point. Men are lacking the "me, me, me!" attitude, and it's causing them pain. What's strange (to a blue piller) is that women actually, in practice, want more of this type of behavior. They reward it with pussy.

      [–]hamstercide 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      It's causing them pain because they expect something in return for their kindness instead of realizing that kindness is what greases the wheels of an already existing attraction. You can't buy attraction with kindness, yet that's what they're trying to do. In my experience those people who are respected socially in a group are the givers and not the takers, the magnanimous lords who can "provide" for the group as if it's nothing, not the self-interested wretches whose first and last priority obviously begins with them. This respect goes hand in hand with admiration and desire from females as social proof. I've seen both approaches in action and I can say that being a selfish dick meant a lot more work and rejection, while someone spontaneous and generous was drawing girls to him without doing anything else - his conscious "game" was shit. Maybe I was doing it wrong, or maybe my environment was different from yours, but from my experience I can't say that your statement about how "in practice, [women] want more of this type of behavior" holds true.

      [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

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      Sex is overrated. The greatest value a woman has is the ability to be a loyal helper and partner (with romantic overtones.) Sex is just shoving your dick in a hole. It's not special. It's not great. Any animal can do it. I like sex. Sex is fun but it has no value beyond entertainment outside of a relationship. Feminism has killed the only beautiful thing about women--that radient glow of rejecting base instinct for something greater--old fashioned love and loyalty.

      What RP offers up is "How to get free whores by working out."

      RP is a bandaid for a broken world.

      [–]drkstrs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      Sexual confidence is a stepping stone. Understanding the strategy is a step towards liberation. So many men are enslaved by this they need help to get beyond it and go higher up the pyramid. You can get laid, bro. Clap Clap. Welcome to step 1. Alpha/ Beta, still step 1. If you have real power you can APPEAR anyway that suits your purposes. The real power is doing what you actually value. Judging a guy you think is beta but don't even know. Step 1. RP can help men at whatever level they are at, but stopping them from being manipulated and stolen from and gaining sexual confidence is step 1.

      [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

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      Waiting for Everyman...

      [–]1Zackcid 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      Me? I'm a product of Rakim, Lakim Shabazz, 2Pac

      N.W.A, Cube, hey, Doc, Ren, Yella, Eazy, thank you, they got Slim

      [–]1kick6 -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

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      The Rule is within the context of sexual strategy, which is what this subforum is about.

      The red pill is about SO MUCH MORE than just sexual strategy. It's about total male self-improvement. Trying to pigeon-hole the red pill to just sexual strategy does the entire movement a disservice while at the same time adding ammo to the magazine of those that would have us banned.

      [–]dallz_beep[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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      Introducing: The Side Bar

      The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men.