all 162 comments

[–]2 Mredpillschool 103 points104 points  (12 children)

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Very good practical advice for those in LTRs. Thanks Arch!

Be amused at anger

Great advice. Take a step back and realize that defending yourself or trying to resolve the conflict is pointless. She's not rationally upset, why would being rational suddenly fix it?

[–]Kev0kev 14 points15 points  (0 children)

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Thats one of the only things in this list that I was good at before swallowing the Red Pill. When my ex would throw a bitch fit I would just laugh at her. It made her even more angry but she would burn herself out after a while.

It was always much better to just laugh at her and let her tire herself out than it was to engage her and try to fight with the hamster.

[–]arcangel092 11 points12 points  (0 children)

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She’s not dumping you because you won’t have a paycheck in 5 days. She’s dumping you because you make her sad

I like this tidbit a lot. It rings true for a variety of issues that cause breakups. It's not necessarily about what happened, it's about how you make her feel about it. If that feeling is sad/frustrated/disconnected then game over.

[–]FindMitch 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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yep perfect strategy. in a way, you're training her or at least reinforcing the fact that if she irrationally throws a fit or is combative, you'll just walk away - thus she accomplishes nothing. you also avoid incriminating yourself by saying something stupid or hurtful that can be used against you later on.

[–]voodoobunny77 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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TIL it's fucking amazing to be single.

[–]bestCallEver 56 points57 points  (12 children)

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As a guy who is still pretty new to trp, I almost want some of this to be false. But as a guy who has been in three ltrs, I know it all to be true.

Spot on post.

[–]MagicGainbow 10 points11 points  (10 children)

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I've been trying it out lately and the communicate less one is scary effective, nothing puts the frighteners in a chick then when facebook says you've seen her message but aren't replying.

[–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 32 points33 points  (8 children)

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nothing puts the frighteners in a chick then when facebook says you've seen her message but aren't replying.

God, do I hate technology. I miss the days before cell phones, when everybody wasn't at everybody else's fingertips. When you could go do something and you got to actually do it. You were out of pocket. Too bad. So sorry. If someone called your house and you weren't home, that's that. They did something else and maybe tried you again later.

Now, if a woman texts you and it takes you longer than 30 seconds to respond, you're "ignoring" her. She's vehemently offended that she's not getting an immediate response and you're not at the beck and call of her fingertips within moments.

If you want to set a good standard with a new woman, don't respond to any of her social media crap. Ever. And take at least 15 minutes to respond to any text. And only use texts to set up meetings. You can't fuck her through your cell phone. Text messages should be 4-6 words, tops, and should contain only essential information, like time and place. You don't have debates and conversations over facebook. That's just moronic.

[–]1lucifa 21 points22 points  (1 child)

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Text messages should be 4-6 words, tops, and should contain only essential information

Can you please go back in time and tell my 14 year old self this. So much time wasted on desperately tapping out texts and IMs to girls on the assumption that a 'lol' in reply translates into a step toward getting laid.

[–]vaker 8 points9 points  (0 children)

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I miss the days before cell phones, when everybody wasn't at everybody else's

For a loooong time I didn't buy a cell phone. When people asked why, I framed it: 'I can afford not being instantly available for everybody'. I gave in eventually, but I still give out my phone number very sparingly. I carry it so I can reach people when I want to.

I log into Faceborg about twice a year to see if an old classmate has showed up or something.

[–]sweetleef 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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Agreed. I detest text messages and fb and all the smartphone "social media" bullshit. I don't use them, with anyone. If they want to contact me, they can call on a telephone. I need to communicate by email for work, but outside of work I try to avoid that, too.

[–]FindMitch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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i usually reply to texts 1-2 hours later if that. and yes only use your phone to set up dates

[–]StarkAtheist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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Could not agree more, bro.

Have never joined facebook.

I do not abide drama.

[–]RPModulator 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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If you want to set a good standard with a new woman, don't respond to any of her social media crap. Ever.

No problem, as I dumped FB once they started letting people with non-.edu email addresses sign up . . .

[–]triceratraps -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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I dont agree with the be selfish section. It seems like you are trying to redefine what selfish mean. (( of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure. )). What I think you are trying to say is to be assertive. ((confidently aggressive or self-assured; positive: aggressive; dogmatic: He is too assertive as a salesman.)). I think the words we use and how we use them are very important. By telling easily hurt and influenced people in this sub to be more selfish you might be doing more harm than good. Also I know this sub-reddit loves to use anthropological data for things. Many societies in the world have historically placed a lot of value in giving, rather than taking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potlatch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_man_(anthropology). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_exchange. And if we really want to do some sketchy evoltuonary psychology, one could say that giving away your resources and sometimes even your time is a symbol of how abundant they really are. Like an expression of how well you got your shit together that you dont even attempt to drain on society. Instead of down voting which is easy. I would appreciate some feedback if you dont agree.

[–]zephyrprime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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Everyone want's TRP to be false but unfortunately, it's true.

[–]Derzu_Uzala 14 points15 points  (19 children)

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As a non-english speaker I can't get the meaning of "amused xxxxx". Amused mastery, etc. I look up in my dictionary and says something like "entertained" but it does not make sense.

Do you mean effortesly, calm, non reactive?

Thanks

[–]BluepillProfessor 28 points29 points  (1 child)

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Yes, Amused Mastery is being calm, non-reactive to a woman as if she is a 12 year old brat and you are in control at all times. Nothing kindles them gina tingles like her feeling you have achieved amused mastery.

http://therationalmale.com/2012/09/14/amused-mastery/

[–]1needathrowawayplease 10 points11 points  (0 children)

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Check out these faces of people we'd call amused.

Amused has the connotation of being entertained by something that is unable to pose a threat to you.

Think of how you'd feel if a 4 year old was punching you in the leg to try to hurt you. You'd just laugh quietly because its entertaining that he's trying so hard but is unable to affect you.

http://www.returnofkings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/nifong.jpg

http://www.zengardner.com/wp-content/uploads/091110.Obama.smirk.jpg

https://thesunnah.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/bill_oreilly.jpg

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/2/2/9/8/8/2/1/smirk-80595654468.jpeg

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/george_clooney_smirk.jpg

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

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It's self-control of your emotions, disciplined enough to handle them and keep them under control in the most extreme of circumstances, convincing the other person that you're so skilled that you can completely choose your emotional reaction.

And when we get to choose our emotions, we will choose amused and happy over sad and angry. Amused mastery is very much like the equanimity of the Buddha.

[–]Osiris11111 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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Be amused as how one would be towards a child trying to get your attention. It shows that you are in charge and they are trying to qualify for your attention and acknowledgement.

-edit- here is a link on the subject http://therationalmale.com/2012/09/14/amused-mastery/

[–]enticingasthatmaybe 9 points10 points  (1 child)

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Amused mastery means that you are in control and everything that happens around you doesn't phase your mental state. You find the world mildly amusing in the way an adult would read the comics in the newspaper.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

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[deleted]

    [–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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    psychological dominance - this is the "mastery" part

    This is the crux of it. It's holding a dominant frame. Feminists hate the idea of men dominating, but love it when their own man can justifiably retain a position of dominance.

    Dominance must be earned. She won't submit herself to an unworthy man. She'll test you. And the more needy she is, the more she'll intentionally or inadvertently try to fuck you up instead of helping you win.

    If you're not paying attention, she'll weaken your frame by pulling you into her shitty, unstable, lazy-ass world. You'll be attending to her frame instead of serving your own.

    The strong man stays the course and doesn't let the trivial issues distract him from the relevant. He recognizes that a female can compromise his frame and he remains attentive and steadfast.

    Edit: "Be Selfish" is another way of saying "Hold Frame." Being selfish is playing on offense, where you're more likely to score Asshole Points. Holding frame is playing on defense, where you're more likely to score Stoic Points.

    [–]chakravanti93 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    Entainertained is an entirely correct and functional understanding. You don't need calm, you don't need silence, you can talk for hours and still make it work.

    Those things are all flavors you can modify based on her behaviour and your taste. Mastery (calm, few words) is the maximum return for effort but it's bland like flour.

    [–]Derzu_Uzala 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    Thank you all, gentlemen. Very informative.

    [–]Wumpus1 1 point2 points  (6 children)

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    He means to literally laugh at her when she gets mad at you for some bullshit. Amused in that it entertains you to see her getting angry. It is the ultimate insult if they are legitimately trying to instigate something.

    [–]Burner1701 0 points1 point  (5 children)

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    Why would she stay with someone who did that though? If you got mad at her for something she did and she just laughed at you and seemed entertained by how angry you were......would you want to stay with her?

    [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 4 points5 points  (4 children)

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    I ask that question hourly. It's unbelievable that women stay with assholes who chuckle when they're angry, and piss all over the nice guys who try to make them happy.

    But if you want to get laid and have successful relationships, go with what works.

    [–]Endorsed Contributordeepthrill 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    IMO it really comes to the fact that if you show that she can phase you, then she has more power over you. And if she is more powerful than you, how can you defend her!? (subconsciously).

    [–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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    piss all over the nice guys who try to make them happy

    The nice guys have pathetic frame and game. They deserve their golden shower.

    [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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    The female subconscious seems to be unable to differentiate between a generally successful guy who attends to her every need because he truly loves her, and a creepy loser who attends to her every need because he's desperately afraid of losing her and doesn't think he'll ever find another woman.

    So deeply rooted is the desire to make absolutely sure she never, ever accidentally fucks a loser man, that she is driven to find assholes attractive. Because while an asshole probably doesn't truly love her, he's definitely not a creepy loser.

    [–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    You're right, but the women is the responder here. Successful or not, a guy attending to her every need is totally fucking it up. He's made her frame more important than his. This inevitably turns her off.

    In a LTR, frame is more important than game.

    [–]nwilli100 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    Do you mean effortlessly, calm, non reactive?

    Yes, but with a tinge of unassailable contentedness and a shit eating grin that says "I'm laughing at your stupid bullshit".

    [–]Xiudo 32 points33 points  (3 children)

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    Be dismissive of undesirable behavior

    "That nice dear"
    

    I use this line all the time. she actually caught on and realized this is what I say when she was being a whiny bitch. and stops the bs when ever i say that phrase.

    [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan 9 points10 points  (0 children)

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    Haha, great, negative reinforcement to elicit a desirable pavlovian response.

    [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

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    I did this to my most recent ex, but using the word "riveting". It got to the point that I'd just look at her with a bored look and sound the "r" and she'd immediately stop, or I'd just have to message her the letter "r".

    [–]Overkillengine 10 points11 points  (0 children)

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    The amusing thing is seeing even here some replies are people confusing right with what is, and are muddling about complaining that they should not have to do things like this.

    We do not live in an ideal world. We of course can delude ourselves into thinking that the world will change to suit us if we just follow the rules for what is right instead of what works.

    And then wonder why the world keeps crapping on us.

    Or we can just realize the only thing we truly have any power over is ourselves.

    Complaining that it isn't right that what works consistently is a form of Skinner box training when dealing with other people....accomplishes little.

    The sky does not care if you don't like that it is blue.

    [–]Vaganusaurus 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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    To follow up with point 1 and this quote:

    --Be selfish. Be dismissive of undesirable behavior. Be amused at anger. Communicate less, not more.

    Intensity > Frequency. While this isn't the most apt example, it's better to drop a full dose of ectasy once a week than split that pill in 7 pieces and build a tolerance.

    [–]dollbaby89 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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    Yes yes yes - "Your woman doesn’t want you to get angry. She wants you to remain a solid rock, upon which she can rely."

    This is awesome! Looks like 'asshole' at first but after I read it this is what makes for a great dependable partner!!

    My current bf is my first who is like the above and I cannot stress how much of a relief it is not to have a feminine, emotional, resentful, supplicating partner.

    [–]SenorPuff 5 points6 points  (2 children)

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    Corollary to the last one: sharing time is not when she wants to hear your problems, but rather your successes. When she asks, "How was your day?" she wants to hear "I was just made VP" or "I brought in a big client" or "I hit a new max on squats" or whatever it is that you're doing.

    You should make a list of everything you do each day that you succeed at anyways. First, it reinforces good behavior. Second, it gives you ammo for your resume, and the quarterly letter you should be writing to your boss or shareholders, should you have them, that says "This is all the awesome stuff I/we have been doing around here and these are the results." Third, it keeps you in check and honest. And lastly, as it directly relates, it is the stories to share to any woman who asks.

    [–]FindMitch 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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    agreed. the idea is to stay positive when you open your mouth. your day, in your own words, was filled with vigor and achievement. OR you tell her something hilarious about your day.

    it's a basic component of conversation with all people. offer something of value when you engage in conversation. you can feign interest in the other person's passion and make it about them, you can tell a very exciting story for their entertainment and enjoyment, you can make them laugh their assess off, or you can tell them something interesting in an intellectual sense.

    [–]SenorPuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    On your last point: be wary of being a know-it-all. Interesting things should be shared akin to something you recently realized or learned.

    [–]16 Endorsed ContributorTRPsubmitter 25 points26 points  (3 children)

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    This is a great list, Arch.

    It's also something you can easily run down and explain when with friends at the bar without being explicitly redpill. I love the looks on girls faces when they're like "oh yeah...yeah right..."

    [–]sheds82 6 points7 points  (1 child)

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    You are not supposed to tell them that, are you?

    [–]Zaorish9 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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    That's right, but if there's a girl you're not trying to fuck (ex: sister or some acquaintance at a corporate event) you can verbalize some RP principles just to amuse yourself with their reaction, watch the brain vs. the ego fight (aka hamster).

    [–]PragmaticD 9 points10 points  (3 children)

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    I've been working on applying RP methods to my marriage over the past year. It's been hard work, but worth the effort.

    I used to have my frame shaken when she'd call me an asshole (or other names) after I laugh off her anger or agree and amplify a loaded question. It took a long time to realize that this is an indication of success, and that if you maintain frame and stay on course you'll get positive results.

    I only mention this because your four points are fantastic, but what to do with the response is just as important (which you do cover - I just want to reinforce). In a marriage or other LTR it's important to learn when you've made your point, and not get shaken if the response isn't immediate understanding on her part.

    I fell into the trap of thinking that the results would be obvious and immediate, that (for example) laughing off her anger would result in her not being angry. You're not trying to stop her from being angry, you're trying to reinforce your value.

    [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 10 points11 points  (2 children)

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    In a marriage or other LTR it's important to learn when you've made your point, and not get shaken if the response isn't immediate understanding on her part...I fell into the trap of thinking that the results would be obvious and immediate, that (for example) laughing off her anger would result in her not being angry. You're not trying to stop her from being angry, you're trying to reinforce your value.

    Yeah, this is critically important. I probably should have said something in the OP about it.

    When a woman approaches you and angrily spouts off about something you did or didn't do (a.k.a., a shit test), and you don't give her what she says she wants even though she doesn't really want it and is just being a bitch and trying to complain about something or pick a fight, she's going to be furious.

    But that night or the next day, she'll apologize and fuck your brains out.

    If she doesn't, repeat until she does.

    If she still doesn't, your relationship was probably too fargone to recover your manhood. If you were a supplicating loser when she met you and the two of you started dating, and 3+ years later you decide you're not happy being a doormat and start asserting yourself, there's a chance it's too late. She's gotten used to you, the weak-willed supplicant, and she finds it too laughable or too jarring when you, the guy she's already pegged as a weak-willed supplicant and has pegged that way for years, starts acting out. She sees that as whining rather than manliness.

    [–]PragmaticD 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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    I'm thrilled your post is the top of the page today. There isn't enough marriage RP knowledge being passed around!

    [–]ONDAJOB 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    I have come to this conclusion. Its too far gone.

    [–]formerbptherapist 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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    Perfect. (Said the former therapist.)

    [–]Audiodragon 3 points4 points  (1 child)

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    Fantastically written, thank you Archwinger.

    What boggles my mind the most now is how these behaviours actually put so much more weight on our shoulders and teaches us to be a man, yet people for some reason believe otherwise.

    [–]Zaorish9 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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    I agree. The truth is that men simply have more responsibility in the world than women, because women as a body simply do not shoulder it, their biological imperative is to complain, throw fits, and test men's poise.

    It really is amazing to me how I, considering myself an intelligent person, actually believed the genders to be "equal" and "communication is key" when there is so much obvious evidence otherwise.

    [–]hungoverseal 3 points4 points  (5 children)

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    Being your best self is not about being selfish. Quite the opposite actually.

    [–]NO_LAH_WHERE_GOT 2 points3 points  (4 children)

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    I can reconcile this.

    Being selfish in this case isn't the myopic, "other people can't have anything I like" kind. It would be more accurately described as "look out for yourself first", or "self-interest". Every disaster response person knows this- first put on your own mask, then put it on for others. First, be self-sufficient. Never be a burden.

    Giving of yourself to others can come AFTER you've secured yourself. Any goodwill you earn while being kind beyond your means will be squandered when you are needy.

    [–]hungoverseal 0 points1 point  (3 children)

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    That's well put. I've always been the opinion that giving and loving freely usually pays of massively in the long term but you're right about needing to secure yourself first

    [–]NO_LAH_WHERE_GOT 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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    Giving and loving freely is a good thing once you're secure. Mother Theresa gave and loved VERY freely, at the expense of her own psychological wellness- and she got depressed and doubted her faith, etc.

    Even then, I'd be skeptical about "freely". I'd always prefer to help someone who might then go on to help somebody else, than help someone who's ungrateful, bitter, selfish, etc (I'm sure we can all think of such people.)

    If we had unlimited time and resources, we should be kind and helpful to everyone- but we don't, so focus on those that will multiply it. That's how I try to do it, anyway.

    [–]hungoverseal 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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    Mother Theresa was an awful human being, I wouldn't use her as an example lol but I agree with the gist of what you're saying.

    These are two amazing threads that helped form my views on the topic, I reckon you'd really enjoy the read. Both forums are essentially Redpill but from a different viewpoint and in some cases far more in-depth.

    http://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/threads/the-astonishing-secrets-that-zendolphin-never-told-you%E2%80%A6exposed.50097/

    http://www.pick-up-artist-forum.com/the-centered-man-manifesto-defining-your-identity-vt134859.html

    [–]NO_LAH_WHERE_GOT 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    Heh, yeah, I just meant to say that doing what you think is good or right won't necessarily lead to a fulfilled life. You may end up burnt out, spent and unappreciated instead. Thanks for the links!

    [–]still_very_alive 4 points5 points  (21 children)

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    So, Purple Pill Debate is good for something, then?

    [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 50 points51 points  (17 children)

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    The Red Pill came to be as a quest for truth. Some of the theories it proposes are controversial. Some unpleasant to deal with. Some just plain mean. Some very hard to believe. But if something works, it works.

    Should we really be so arrogant as to dismiss dissenting thoughts? Because they're unpleasant? Expressed meanly to us? Hard to believe?

    You can learn a lot from your non-Red Pill friends. What they think and why. What's working for them and what's not and why they think that's so. The Red Pill doesn't know all things about all things. It has some good theories for a lot of things that make good sense, but the rest of the world has a lot to teach.

    [–]thepillwastaken 8 points9 points  (2 children)

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    I got in a debate at PPD with someone that simply could not grasp that they misinterpreted our side bar as sexist and misogynist. So it just degenerated into her saying "give me scientific proof you are right" over and over. Basically a pissing match.

    From that interaction I realized that I don't care if people don't understand what TRP is about. All that matters is it works for me.

    [–]FindMitch 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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    gosh don't even try to argue or convince people. there's no cure for ignorance.

    women will never be happy with TRP and manosphere teachings. think about it, we're using our understanding of women derived from evolution/sociology/psychology/economics/philosophy and exploiting them for sex and relationships in which we hold more power. no matter how correct or accurate you are, they will resent you and will never admit you're right.

    so lets keep TRP among men, and only men willing to swallow it at that.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    All hamsters are like that.

    [–]still_very_alive 5 points6 points  (11 children)

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    I tentively agree. That is why I occasionally head there - and even lurk TBP and SRS. On very rare occasions, they do point out a genuine flaw in some advice TRP hands out (usually when something is likely to backfire and fail). When I first got into TRP, I found they were a good way to maintain perspective, and figure out which bits of TRP were for me and which weren't.

    The problem is, over time, moments like that have been few and far between, and often I find that this sub is also capable of pointing out flaws. By and large, I'm still rather leery of criticism they offer. Most of the lurking I do now is mainly for amusement.

    [–]6Invalidity 7 points8 points  (4 children)

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    The issue I have with the TheBluePill is that it is a subreddit whose sole purpose is to denigrate TheRedPill and its subject matter. TRP is focused on something much more objective, which is helping men optimize their sexual strategies, improve the quality of their lives, and raise awareness to the harsh realities of life.

    Yes, they may find flaws in our arguments, but the fact that they already have a pronounced bias against us indicates that they do not intend to level with us in any which way. Some of us may try to reason with them while others may dismiss them entirely, but they are wholeheartedly dedicated to shutting us down on all levels.

    TBP mocks every post submitted here. Whether by satirical responses, hyperbolized criticism, or outlandish hatred, the message in that subreddit is clear - TRP is an evil that must be shut down.

    [–]still_very_alive 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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    Agreed, as I stated, but as Archwinger pointed out, improve yourself by any means necessary.

    TBP mocks every post submitted here.

    Well actually, in my experience, the ones even they can't argue against, they just ignore.

    [–]GillWillPill 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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    So? This is exactly what Arch's post is telling us not to do, let it affect us.

    We should be happy that TheBluePill exist. Like /r/TwoXChromosomes, it provides another way for people to find this subreddit. We have already seen examples of people discovering TRP thanks to TXC becoming a default.

    [–]6Invalidity 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    It doesn't affect me. I don't browse their subreddit on a daily or even a periodic basis. I visited it once to see what all the uproar was about, but I saw it immediately for what it was.

    I am simply explaining to him the issue with trying to find a common ground between the two subreddits.

    [–]chakravanti93 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    Relevant username. Yo dawg. Heard your Haters gonna hate your haters want to.hate your....eh, fuck it.

    Stop whining.

    [–]chakravanti93 1 point2 points  (4 children)

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    I would follow a subreddit that picks out good arguments from TBP. Build it and I will come.

    [–]still_very_alive 0 points1 point  (3 children)

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    Too much work, I would think, sorting the wheat from the chaff.

    [–]chakravanti93 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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    What do you call what you do?

    [–]still_very_alive 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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    My job.

    [–]chakravanti93 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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    You get paid to reddit and read TPB in parricular?

    [–]Dreamtrain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    and even lurk TBP

    Don't waste your time, that subreddit will always be against you no matter what. It's good to have your beliefs tested because it gives you a perspective of where you stand and you can even recognize things you may have been mistaken about, or could have room for improvement, but TBP won't offer you that.

    [–]LS_D 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    Possibly the best definition/explanation of TRP that I've seen!

    [–]hungoverseal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    The problem with this sub is that it has to defend itself so much from the outside that there's no way near enough critical debate on the inside. Would be great to have a thread where we could all have a serious go at taking apart some of the Redpill assumptions from a devils advocate perspective. For instance I think that being selfish is not a trait of a superior man but it is something that could be argued as potentially redpill. Other topics could be 'All women are hypergamous' 'women are incapable of loving a man like they want to be loved' etc.

    Could also be more debate on the negatives of masculine traits. For instance we constantly call out the negatives of feminine traits such as lack of honour and promote our own masculinity but then don't examine the problems caused by masculinity such as honour violence

    [–]Dreamtrain 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    As long as it's engaged with someone who won't fling ad hominems, shaming and can actually carry an argument, anything that can put TRP under rigor is a good thing.

    [–]Anon_Dutch 2 points3 points  (3 children)

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    Excellent. 100% agreed. Thank you for the concise distillation. One addition, being amused at anger works with men as well as women. Laughing at their anger makes them angrier to the point that they mess up, escalate to a physical level, which gives you justification to beat them down in self defense. Perhaps besides the point of your post, but worth noting, always laugh at anger, both with women and men.

    [–]ClevarNiggar 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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    lol I don't think u would be beating down a fly with a can of bug spray

    [–]Anon_Dutch 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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    Lol, if I had a can of bug spray, there would be no need to beat the fly, it'd simply spray it. So much for being "clevar" (FYI the correct spelling is clever) you ignorant plebeian.

    [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (4 children)

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    But when your woman comes home from her workday (or her non-workday, depending on her situation), and begins to complain about a co-worker or friend of hers, and chatters on and on for 45 minutes straight about this other person you barely know and don’t care about, she doesn’t want you to offer solutions or advice. She just wants you to sit there and listen. To communicate less. To just say “uh huh” and nod. She wants you to hear her feelings, but she doesn’t want you to tell her what you think.

    i dont agree that you should listen to a woman for 45 minutes while she moans about her day .... that is for women to do with each other, this is not what a man should do.

    [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 35 points36 points  (0 children)

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    45 straight minutes of yammering is, obviously, hyperbole.

    But the corollary to all of the negative reinforcers in this post is that you also want to positively reinforce good behavior by building comfort and closeness with a woman.

    If your woman fucks your brains out nightly and cooks you dinner and buys you scotch and surprises you with lunch at work and bought you a badass suit for your last birthday, and never asks anything of you, she's being an awesome woman. The least you can do is listen while she talks. This will help her to feel closer to you and more comfortable in your relationship. Without the pull part of a push/pull relationship, the push is meaningless.

    If listening while your woman complains about work or an annoying friend of hers isn't your thing, you should do something else to build comfort if she's been awesome.

    [–]1independentmale 9 points10 points  (2 children)

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    I actually enjoy listening to women talk. They say some funny shit when their hamsters are spinning and I find it all very amusing. I'll even throw in random ass comments pertinent to the situation just for the LOLs.

    Don't take anything they say seriously when they're ranting about their day. I pay attention to about every fourth or fifth word and let the motion of her tits entertain me. Makes it much more tolerable.

    [–]Endorsed Contributorfluviant 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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    In the same boat as you, here. File this under "amused mastery." I find it entertaining to listen to the shit women say.

    [–]Zaorish9 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    Agreed. I view it like modern art: It's a puzzle: there is amusement hidden in this mess, listen carefully, analyze, and you will LOL and enjoy. Moreover everyone likes being listened to, even minimally.

    [–]Ugly_Cassanova 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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    Only if I had found this subreddit with my ex. I could've avoided wasting a year of my life.

    [–]bmastermind 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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    Now go and make any future year count.

    [–]esco_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    The communicate point is important, but i think the way you have outlined it is misleading.

    Communication is important in so far as your partner knows what you want/expect, and vice versa. If there is a problem brewing, e.g. your partner is doing something which you don't like (for example, has taken up smoking ciggarettes), it is important to communicate you are not satisfied with this. Another example would be rewarding behaviour that you want to see happen more often (e.g. giving your partner some descriptive praise - "you went to the gym today? awesome, i really like that you are keeping yourself fit" squeeze her ass).

    This communication is important, and necessary.

    I think your point is more that you should cut out needless communication. Nagging and its male equivalent, or gossip, or other bullshit.

    I had a funny moment which is a good example of what you say about wanting someone to listen rather than talk. GF had an argument with someone on the phone, and then started venting to me straight afterwards. I told her "your point was kinda valid, but you could have approached that way better by staying calm and saying x y z and then ending the conversation, it didnt need to turn into such an emotional mess".

    She was mad for days that I gave her input, when all she "needed" me to do was "listen". Fuck that, i gave 0 fucks.

    [–]fungussa 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    Would you say that it's largely about shifting the balance of power in the relationship? Not allowing for a role-reversal, where she'd view her partner as not being man enough as a sexual partner?

    [–]Good2Go5280 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    To summarize: Don't give a shit.

    [–]sweetleef 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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    A great write-up. All of the points can be summarized by saying you need to treat women in a relationship as a good father would treat his children. With authority, stability, and compassion, but without weakness or neediness.

    A child isn't equipped to support or control his father, or to fix his emotional weaknesses, or to deal with drama from him. The same is true for women. And both will quickly lose respect for a man who acts like their servant or their friend.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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    [deleted]

      [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

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      Sounds like the beginnings of a strong relationship between two non codependent people.

      [–]Olipyr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      Awesome! We'll have something to talk about and share with one another.

      [–]lorddeathhh 2 points3 points  (4 children)

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      A couple things to mention: 1. I don't think you know the definition of the word "selfish" and 2. instead of communicating less you should try reflective listening (repeating the salient parts of their story back to them using different words).

      Remember children, women are not exact replicants of each other so saying something like "the right answer is: agree and amplify. “Uhh. Let’s see. I’m feeling hungry. And horny. Definitely horny. But mostly hungry. If you’d worn a shorter skirt, maybe we could have flipped the two around, but I’m going to go get some food.” Her inner self will nod in approval when you say that. "Yup. Still a man," she'll confirm." is beyond imbecilic. If you are going for vapid, vacuous girls that just want to be fucked by you (assuming you are good looking enough) then by all means playfully flirt using a dialogue similar to the one OP said, but if you are going after a more mature (emotional and intellectual) woman, you will shoot yourself in the dick if you say something this inane.

      [–]1Zackcid 0 points1 point  (3 children)

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      If the woman you're talking about were actually "mature" as you say she is, then there would be no need to use that line, now would there?

      [–]lorddeathhh 5 points6 points  (2 children)

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      Are you still in high school?

      [–]1Zackcid 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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      No, I'm in elementary. Now what's your excuse for being a moron?

      [–]lorddeathhh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      On baseless and bona fide ad hominems: when an ad hominem argument is made against a statement, it is important to draw a distinction whether the statement in question was an argument or a statement of fact (testimony). In the latter case the issues of the credibility of the person making the statement may be crucial.

      So I inquire of you, is a mendacious, fallacious, disparaging retort the best your half-witted mind can muster?

      [–]NOT_MEEHAN 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      When your woman complains about something that is not an important life or death matter, or tries to pick a fight over something, never argue. Because except for those rare cases of actual significance that are easy to recognize, she’s not after the solution to her complaint or a resolution to her conflict. She’s after validation. Attention. When you respond to a complaint, you validate it.

      I wish I had realized this years ago. Nice post OP +1

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

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      I have to inform you men who seem to really need it... Saying this as a concerned female.... I lived with a boyfriend who just didn't want female contact... You must recognize when you have a good woman... One that makes you breakfast in the morning, one that kisses you for reason... One that massages you when you work out... They exist you just have to treat them sweetly ... Yes, show real emotions to a woman... That's really all i have to say to you guys... They even wake up early and make you a huge breakfast cause you work out... And blow you upon request and fuck you when they want it ( all the time)

      [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      The correlary to everything in the OP is that in addition to stonewalling undesirable behavior, a wise man rewards good behavior. Because a strong man is typically honest and not manipulative, he naturally feels closer to a thoughtful, respectful woman who holds up her end of the relationship. He's naturally inclined to behave in a manner that makes her feel closer and more comfortable.

      But there are loser guys out there that supplicate to their women constantly, thereby reinforcing bad behavior. These guys are manipulative and dishonest. They placate their women in a desperate attempt to "earn" sex and keep her happy so she won't leave. Ultimately, guys like this just make women uncomfortable.

      [–]DoesNotMatterAnymore 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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      ...and you know why you are like this? Because you are an awesome /r/RedPillWomen

      [–]1Zackcid -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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      I know right? Just from her writing style, I couldn't help but feel a bit attracted. I'm usually annoyed by guys who throw around "..." everywhere, but when it's a girl that does it and backs it up with non-aggressive or non-hostile words, it comes off as cute.

      [–]1Zackcid -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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      They exist you just have to treat them sweetly

      No, they exist beforehand. They don't exist because you treat them sweetly, they exist because they're parents or a previous boyfriend raised them well. Do you honestly think that a conceited woman who's used to getting her way will suddenly act all sweet and nice the moment the boyfriend acts sweet? No. It's either in her, or it's not.

      Judging by your writing style, I can tell you're probably a good girl or an enjoyable girlfriend. Some of the tips and behavior outlined here won't necessarily be applied to someone like you. Society has raised most women in a certain way, this is that guide to deal with those women.

      [–]19bfriendzonest -1 points0 points  (6 children)

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      Is this how american women really are? Is this cross cultural? I ask because I'm latin american and I would leave you if you tried this on me.

      [–]DoesNotMatterAnymore 0 points1 point  (5 children)

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      TRP is a tool, and you use it when you THINK you NEED to use it. I don't run around with a hammer and a screwdriver at work, because those tools are absolutly useless for my work.

      If you behave like a normal human being, using TRP makes no sense, it's not needed. But if you act like a bitch, shit testing me, i WILL look for my tools, and use it on you.

      EDIT: btw some stuff on TRP is cultural stuff, mostly american. I'm from central/eastern europe, hypergamy for example is not that prominent. The reason? Wages. They are fuckin low compared to the US. There is no such thing as stay-at-home mom. If you want a financially functioning family, both parent has to work.

      [–]19bfriendzonest 0 points1 point  (4 children)

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      Hmmm interesting.

      So you don't believe that theredpill is a fundamental necessity to deal with every woman but it's something you neeed for particular women?

      I'm not a redpiller but I've always wondered how redpill would go in other cultures like my own.

      [–]DoesNotMatterAnymore 2 points3 points  (2 children)

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      ahaha NO.

      My interpretation of RP is, All Women Like That, with a different degree. Here is a statement, all women hypergamous. You all want a better, stronger, richer, funnier person as partner. As a women you all have this mentality, it's in your system, this includes you, /u/19bfriendzonest, you are no different. But since we all grow up differently, different country/parents/cultures/friends some things are more important for us, for other, we care less. I can't say that every women in my country just as much hypergamous as north american women, because this is fuckin untrue. I live in a different country, where there are no $100-150k jobs, ohh i'm sorry, there are, but only CEOs has the chance to earn this much money. So since most of the population earn waaaay less, as i sad before hypergamy is less prominent. Divorce rate is pretty much the same, ~50%, main resons: infidelity, alcoholism. 71% of the divorces started by the wife.

      You can't use "black and white" RP theoris on a grey world. For me TRP is a toolbox, when you need to fix something, you don't need all your tools, only a few for the right task.

      If i feel that you love me, if i see how much you care about me, you don't whine or act bitchy, and fucks my brains out, i have NO LOGICAL REASON to use any TRP stuff on you. Because you are an awesome GF.

      [–]Zaorish9 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      Very well said. I would say the same thing about the 48 Laws of Power and the office. It's just a toolbox.

      If the world was a place where all people communicated honestly and all worthy achievements were rewarded, this stuff would not be necessary. If you are dealing with an honest and straightfoward and loving and self-aware person, this stuff is not necessary. But when you're not you have these tools.

      [–]mammalsauce 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      solid post. Thanks archwinger

      [–]marshaldo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      Cracking post. Written well and really solidified some otherwise unclear ideas for me. Thank you.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      Love this post. So much summed up so concisely. Kudos sir.

      [–]Beardsman2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      Number 2 is ok i guess for small infringements. I don't consider her "blathering" on about crap to be that bad, if it's not a common thing I don't really have a problem with it. Real undesirable behavior needs to be punished, ESPECIALLY in long term relationships.

      One way is your way, to dismiss/ignore it, i guess...it's better than arguing with her in the frame she has created. But it's not a great punishment, it doesn't really hurt her, she doesn't think "well i'll never do that again". BY FAR the better punishment, to set boundaries, and to ensure the bad behavior doesn't happen in the future, is re-framing the argument completely onto your own terms and verbally "attacking" (i guess thats the word) her until she submits to you.

      1. Tell her what she has done wrong and criticize her for it
      2. If she argues (she probably will unless you're a boss) then escalate until she capitulates, offers full apology
      3. Offer alternate solution next time and reward her good behavior

      Frame is everything, once you've decided to punish in this way never take the argument back to her frame, it's not about what she was picking a fight with you about, it's entirely about her behavior.

      I think this is THE most important thing missing from most mainstream red pill thought, it's the single most important piece of advice I've learned from TRP. Its pretty simple classical conditioning. Doing this has worked fantastically well for me every single time I've used it, because most girls are NATURALLY SUBMISSIVE, they need to be put in their place to feel protected. Perhaps the only downside I can foresee is that girls get so wet from being put in their place, it's so powerful, that their bitching might increase...never happened to me though, they simply amend their future behavior in line with my boundaries like good little girls.

      [–]GiantWindmill 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      To just say “uh huh” and nod. She wants you to hear her feelings, but she doesn’t want you to tell her what you think.

      And when you’re having a hard time at work and may be getting fired at the end of the week, that’s the last thing she wants to hear from you. If you tell her about your worries, she’ll just worry, too

      I couldn't generalise this more myself

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      This applies to interacting with men aswell, be assertive and dont take bullshit from anyone.

      Edit: that's the only way to gain respect - do the opposite or break frame and you'll lose it.

      Edit2: excluding "buddies" - but choose well!

      [–]brussels08 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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      Idk if I can be considered red pill, I generally agree with the concepts, but isn't some of this a bit harsh. There are times when exceptions can be made, I'm thinking mostly of the non communication and ignoring. It can be irritating being ignored, what a guy says isn't always super interesting to a girl, but if she takes the time to try to be interested, I don't think it's asking a lot to return the favor. And communication is kind of key, not telling every single secret is understandable, I guess it's fair that everyone should have a measure of privacy, but I find it more bothersome not knowing how and what my SO feels. I don't need to know everything, but I want to know i'm trusted enough to know those things. I am new to some of these red pill ideas, so maybe i'm out of place and being sensitive. Also, I hope I followed the rules commenting here, sorry if I didn't.

      [–]1Zackcid 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      There are no absolutes here. We give generalities for dealing with trends of people. Most of the time, you should be behaving the way OP outlined, but use your common sense to determine whether or not the given circumstance calls for it.

      One of the most common mistakes non-RPers make is taking this as God's word, in the sense that you must follow it 100%. The world isn't black or white, so use proper judgement.

      Having said that, I don't think any of this is a bit harsh, exceptions can always be made, yes, but mistakes in judgement can happen too. Sometimes when you're dealing with a woman, she may think that her concern is genuine, but she doesn't realize in the back of her mind that what she's doing is a "shit-test".

      At the end of the day, just experiment with a bunch of stuff until you get better at seeing patterns. Also read OP more carefully because you didn't seem to pick up on the caveats of the author. Things like " Obviously, you should listen to your woman most of the time, if she’s holding up her end of the relationship in other respects. "

      Did you not pick up on that?

      [–]cooltrip 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      It all is so fucking easy... women get attracted to attractive male bodies first, and abundance mentality second.

      If you show an abundance mentality that doesn't match your male body, then women will guess you are just playing a pretended role, and they won't let your abundance mentality convince them.

      Male physical fitness is necessary. And even if it wasn't necessary and you could get pussy without having a fit male body, if you have some behavioural and moral value you want to get women for your physical fitness.

      So it all is not about the simple fact of getting pussy. You can get pussy as a blue PUA approacher-beggar if you want. But if you have some moral value, you want to get pussy as a choosing anatomical Alpha.

      Be Einstein if you want. But if you want pussy, have a fit male body, and then don't be a fucking disgusting beggar: treat women like the inferior useless beings they actually are. Their inferiority and their lack of intelligence is what makes them choose Alpha according to Alpha's looks.

      [–]triceratraps -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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      I dont agree with the be selfish section. It seems like you are trying to redefine what selfish mean. (( of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure. )). What I think you are trying to say is to be assertive. ((confidently aggressive or self-assured; positive: aggressive; dogmatic: He is too assertive as a salesman.)). I think the words we use and how we use them are very important. By telling easily hurt and influenced people in this sub to be more selfish you might be doing more harm than good. Also I know this sub-reddit loves to use anthropological data for things. Many societies in the world have historically placed a lot of value in giving, rather than taking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potlatch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_man_(anthropology). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_exchange. And if we really want to do some sketchy evoltuonary psychology, one could say that giving away your resources and sometimes even your time is a symbol of how abundant they really are. Like an expression of how well you got your shit together that you dont even attempt to drain on society.

      [–]shlomif -5 points-4 points  (8 children)

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      Beeee yourself. Be honest. Don't pretend to be what you aren't or what you aren't feeling. Don't play games. Whatever happened to being a gentleman? :-(

      [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

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      None of the above is mutually exclusive with any of this.

      When a woman behaves badly, an honest man is inclined to refrain from validating her. A dishonest and manipulative loser might try to placate her because he thinks that will lead to sex or because he has no self respect and doesn't think he can do any better.

      When a woman acts in a manner that her man likes, an honest man feels closer to this respectful woman and treats her accordingly.

      [–]1niczar 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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      I have serious anxiety problems. If I hadn't stopped "being myself" I would never have gotten laid. Of all the shitty dating advice out there, "be yourself" is the shittiest of them all, and then some. Even "get AIDS" would be not as bad because you can probably meet women in AIDS support groups.

      [–]1Zackcid 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      I think women just love tossing around "be yourself" as an instinctive way to categorize men in separate boxes. They don't want beta males to start acting alpha and getting sex. By "being yourself" only the natural alpha guys will be getting all the love and sex while the unfortunate men will remain celibate.