all 67 comments

[–]mithridates1 93 points94 points  (0 children)

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It's that the sacrifice is expected - that's what gets me.

Edit: As illimitableman once wrote on this board: "Man's love is expected to be sacrificial, woman's isn't."

[–][deleted] 38 points39 points  (18 children)

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It's amazing to think that so many have done this. Being altruistic while ignoring the long term consequences that follow. If someone were able to explain this when I was a teen, I can only imagine what I would have become.

Great post.

[–]TheSKSpecial 40 points41 points  (17 children)

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Don't dwell too long on what you could have become. Make up for it by doing some great shit now.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (15 children)

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Or teach some other unknowing teenager and help them become all that they can be. Life isn't just about you.

[–]FamousAuthor47 15 points16 points  (8 children)

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I'm a teenager (16 years old) and I've been studying and applying the Red Pill for over a month now. Don't worry, some few lucky ones of the teenage community lurk TRP digesting all of this.

[–]night-addict 13 points14 points  (7 children)

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18 year old teenager doing the same. The next generation is ready, we're just in development.

[–]Menadian 1 point2 points  (6 children)

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You two guys need to know, that you have scored the jackpot by finding TRP in this age. I am 22 by now and would have LOVED to be aware of this after being 16! While my failures from that time serves as powerfull experiences I can use to teach myself, I would much rather have done it right at that time ;)

[–]vorverk 2 points3 points  (5 children)

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22? I'll be 34 next month. Discovering TRP at this age should be prohibited.
"I feel I owe you an apology. We have a rule...we never free a mind once it reaches a certain age. It's dangerous, and the mind has trouble letting go."
It's turning in to a depression, seeing how beta I was most of my life, and I can't just "start over" now.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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But you can start over.

Use TRP to improve the relationship you're in now or to help you find a new one/s.

Keep applying TRP logic to your relationships, keep your chin up, and see marked improvements.

[–]Katalyst81 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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I'm 33, wish I had found this when I was 19, my life would have been completely different.

As for the mind having trouble letting go, it's funny that before I found TRP I was telling my friend at his birthday party last year "no pussy is worth this shit, it's your birthday, forget about her and lets go have fun" things like that made the pill easier to swallow for me.

[–]1xwm 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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I saw someone reply to my post once once:

Me: I wish I had found red pill when I was 20, I would be so much better off now that I'm 26, plus all the college girls I could have still scored at that age

Reply 1: I wish I had found red pill when I was 26, I would be so much better off now that I'm 38, plus all the college girls I could have still scored at that age

Reply 2: I wish I had found red pill when I was 38, I would be so much better off now that I'm 50, plus all the college girls I could have still scored at that age

One: its a universal thought

Two: You can pull college girls easily through your late thirties/early fourties without much trouble, and even after that its still possible, your game just has to get better

[–]Menadian 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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The wisdom I draw from this is, that you close to cannot apply TRP soon enough in your life.

[–]kinklianekoff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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The wonderful thing about being an able man is that it is practically never too late. While I understand the premise, the closer to 50 you are the more it hurts to have wasted your best years. But know that the worst problem with discovering TRP at 34 is that you have not had the running start! 27-45 is most definitely the years you get most return for having TRP knowledge.

The only productive thing to do with this new knowledge is to apply it and enjoy the years you have left and know that a man ages only as well as he lives.

[–]TheSKSpecial 15 points16 points  (3 children)

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It's not all about you, but you are the most important person in your life.

Nobody first comes here because their life was going according to plan. You can't force this shit on people. They won't learn until they are ready to learn.

Tell some teenage boy that everything he's been taught about interpersonal relationships is a lie, and he will not listen to you unless he's had some unpleasant experiences with women himself.

[–]UGoBoom 5 points6 points  (2 children)

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The last paragraph is absolutely true. I remember being resolute in how I pandered to women two years ago; a few friends tried giving me advice not unlike RP, and I ignored it. After achieving two different womens' affection but never even getting losing my kiss virginity, and after being oblivious to a girl giving me booty call, I am more than ready to apply RP theory to my life.

[–]TheSKSpecial 3 points4 points  (1 child)

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I speak from experience. My parents gave me tons of RP-ish advice when I was a teenager and I didn't listen because I thought it was "old-fashioned". I thought that what they were saying wouldn't work because women are strong and independent now and they don't go for that kind of stuff (being assertive, taking a leadership role) anymore. Men are women are complete equals, don'tchaknow.

You name the BP cliche, I believed it. Took multiple friend-zonings, "you're gonna be a great husband one day but I don't like you in that way/bawwww why do I always fall for assholes why can't I find any nice guys"s, and eventually staring down divorce papers from a shotgun wedding to a single mom who "I'm on the pill, I promise"d me before I realized, "y'know...maybe mom and dad were right".

So even though I could dwell on what coulda, shoulda, woulda happened if I knew this stuff before, I wouldn't have been able to appreciate it without the life lessons that brought me to this point. So I've used the RP knowledge I've gained to make what was once a shitty marriage into something great, I focus on keeping it that way, and even though I'd like to teach my kid the lessons I didn't want to believe, I know he won't learn until life puts him in a position where he's ready to.

[–]1xwm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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I know the feeling looking back at who I used to be.

Its a mixture of: shudder / aww, that's adorable / poor bastard / just wait little guy, it'll get better.

[–]1 Endorsed Contributorjsl2837 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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/u/TRPsubmitter coined a term for this:

"Bro Knighting"

In his example, he was talking about fucking other guy's wives or girlfriends, which some of us might be morally against. However it can apply to things as simple as trying to share TRP with people who are not ready for it.

http://redditlog.com/snapshots/782273:

So what is the "Bro Code"?

The so-called "bro code" is a comforting/coping mechanism that guys hide behind, which tells them to "help" less fortunate guys in order to pacify the inner pain they have from when they were that less fortunate guy themselves.

This develops because apparently facing the big bad world with your "bros" is easier than facing it alone (especially when it comes to facing women & the daunting sexual marketplace). It also is a natural output of guys' desire for camaraderie.

However, it reeks of white knighting, but for other men. It also perpetuates a victim mentality, which leads to the willingness to give up your personal agency for your failures with women.

Hence, the term I offer: Bro Knighting, where a man comes to the defense of another weaker man who is unworthy of help for the sake of satisfying their "inner sense of justice", which makes them feel more manly and "tough" (hence, the battle language in the example above about "responsibility" and literally carrying a gun to fulfill your "duty"). This is because they cannot feel manly by accomplishing their primary goal (slaying pussy), so they settle for a secondary meal (helping bros).

This being said, I have no issue if you want to give up pussy to "help a bro out" (it's not my blue balls at the end of the night). What I take issue with is guys who try to define sex as a moral issue with obligations.

[–]Jak0bi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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I volunteer to be that teenager

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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I've started making some small changes. The difficulty is in not getting sucked back into habits you've developed over time.

[–]bigchiefmsu 31 points32 points  (6 children)

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slow clap

I'm finally fucking swallowing this pill. Today. Now.

[–]TheWeddingReversal 6 points7 points  (4 children)

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me too, man. It feels good.

Tomorrow I'm going to the gym for the 5th time this week. Gonna get ripped.

[–]TRiPdonGame 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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Good on you, mate. Be sure to create a workout plan you can stick with in the long haul, not a "New Years Resolution" plan. It takes time to get ripped, and you don't want to be making excuses for quitting halfway down the road.

[–]technician218 1 point2 points  (2 children)

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More gym does not equal gains. I go 3 days a week; I'd highly suggest you visit some bodybuilding forums or at least google 'babylover's starting strength' for a good beginner's routine.

[–]TheWeddingReversal 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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I am basically following this workout:

My goal is not to gain, but to get super fit. I welcome any advice though.

[–]technician218 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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Cool, I wish ya luck. I use myfitnesspal to track my macros.

[–][deleted]  (6 children)

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[deleted]

    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

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    [deleted]

      [–]2 Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      I have to agree. My nirvana and zen moments that make life worth living are all automotive related. 500hp GTO, 700hp Firebird Formula, and always something to build, swap engines, repaint, rewire, restore, or beat mercilessly waiting in line.

      There is no better feeling than being exhausted after a long day working out, working on cars, and working the wheel and throttle. The GTO and I have a date tomorrow.

      [–]1xwm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      The male equivalent of a spa or a nice furbished house are sports and cars.

      I would like to change this to:

      The male equivalent of a spa or a nice furbished house are sports and hobbies.

      Cars do nothing for me, but setting up computers, reading, playing with my pets, discussing complex ideas, rock climbing, and skiing do.

      [–]zephyrprime 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      The pampering stuff won't really do much for a man. Men aren't as sensual because we're more rational instead which means spas don't do much for us. Men derive their identity from their beliefs and what they do and have done - not from their environment so decorations don't mean much for us.

      [–]6Invalidity 46 points47 points  (4 children)

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      Fast forward another six months. She’s found another guy who’s maybe not as good-looking, wealthy, or socially apt as her last boyfriend, but he takes her out on fancy dates, never asks for sex, and treats her like a princess. Finally, she thinks, she’s getting the life she deserves. Thinking back, she realizes that her last relationship was “abusive.” Her ex-boyfriend never technically forced her to do anything. He just said what he wanted and was confident enough to walk and find what he wanted elsewhere. And she did whatever he wanted just to keep him around. She’s so angry. He clearly abused her! He manipulated her! All of that sex she never wanted was practically rape!

      It's humorous that after all that deniability, she will still find her ex more attractive than her supplicating current.

      [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 52 points53 points  (3 children)

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      Men that are not attractive to a woman are invisible to her. She doesn't rant about them. She doesn't hate them. She's not angry with them. They just don't exist to her. Barely a blip on her radar.

      She'll talk for hours about her ex-boyfriend and how terrible he was, while her current boyfriend patiently listens, soaking up all the verbal discharge like an emotional tampon, agreeing with how terrible her ex is, while pushing away sinister thoughts about how it sounds like she's not quite over her ex, and banishing any wondering about why she keeps bringing this guy up. It won't sit right with him, but he won't understand why until he comes back to his apartment to find her fucking her ex silly in his bed. And he'll probably forgive her, too, as long as she doesn't leave him, because he's so lucky to have a girlfriend at all.

      [–]Overkillengine 14 points15 points  (2 children)

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      The opposite of love is not hate. Hate implies you still care. The opposite of love is indifference.

      When a woman hates a man, she cares about him.

      [–]greycloud24 7 points8 points  (1 child)

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      a lot of guys don't realize this. its the core of why negging even works. if a woman doesn't care that you exist, than it is harder for her to be attracted to you. but if she hates you, and you "redeem" yourself, than that hate turns into love. it isn't about love or hate, it is about the intensity of emotion felt. if you can make her feel strongly towards you, you can get that strong feeling to be positive.

      [–]Broder45 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      This string of comments will really make some people think. I haven't looked at it this way before, but I agree. It's all about the emotions.

      TIL: The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference.

      [–]Summertime_Dimes 8 points9 points  (0 children)

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      Excellent post, chief. The points you make epitomize what I learned since coming to TRP. I firmly believe that so long as a man is open, direct, communicative, and honest about what he wants and doesn't want from a relationship with a woman, and provided that she has the option to say no thank you, its all good and nobody else's business what happens between them.

      Adult humans need to accept responsibility for their choices regardless of gender. If a woman chooses to fuck her ex or cheat on her current with a good-looking, exciting guy - it is her choice. If a man chooses to exit a relationship with a woman because their needs are incompatible - it is his choice. Nobody owes anybody anything in the romance game except the option to say no thank you if they are not willing.

      I will not entertain the notion that a man is manipulative or acting in bad faith if he says to his woman, "My ideal partner is happy to do XYZ, if you are not willing to do XYZ then we need to see other people." I have had this said to me plenty of times by women, and never once felt like I did not have the option to say no. I was a BP pussy and afraid to say no, but even still I was aware that I COULD and accept the consequences.

      TL;DR - TRP is right on, men and woman are humans and should be treated as such. Be good to those who are good to you, and don't be afraid to ask for something/bail if you don't get it. Nice post, OP.

      [–]monsieurhire2 22 points23 points  (7 children)

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      "Treat them like human beings."

      That suggests that human beings are inherently "good" or something, instead of predatory, self-interested, dangerous animals who turn on each other when the chips are down.

      [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 28 points29 points  (2 children)

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      Most humans are risk-adverse, conflict-avoidant, bland, nice people. They're pleasant to each other, and for the most part, follow the law, do the right thing, and help each other out (because they have a really hard time saying no since that's a conflict -- but they also have a hard time actually asking for what they want because they fear rejection).

      So most people will help out another human as long as it's not too much of an imposition. Most people are "generally nice." But for the wrong reasons. They're nice because they're self-interested. Being nice is easy, doesn't get you into conflicts, it's the least risky way to live, and you end up generally socially accepted with little risk of being ostracized.

      But put one human in a position where (s)he has complete power over another, or where a person has a potential for gain at the expense of someone else with absolutely no consequence and/or chance of getting caught, and the story changes drastically.

      [–]monsieurhire2 6 points7 points  (1 child)

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      "Are" is a very problematic word because it implies permanence. People avoid risks, affect a bland outward demeanor, and behave or pretend to be "nice," whatever "nice" means. In my experience, people are long on talk and short on action.

      [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

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      In my experience, people are long on talk and short on action.

      True. A lot of people who consider you a "close friend" will hang out with you and let you buy them drinks, but disappear if you ask them to help you move out of your apartment.

      [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan 15 points16 points  (1 child)

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      You always find out who your true friends are in a crisis. Those guys you get along with and joke with... many will disappear in a hot minute. Some because they don't care, some because they don't know how to communicate/behave, others because they're wrapped up in their own problems. Momentarily we have companionship, ultimately esp. as men, we're alone, the only people who will perhaps give up their own sense of well being for us is our parents, not friends, not women. Some are unlucky enough to have shitty parents too. Most people like us and love us when it's easy to like us and love us, but when we need help and it becomes difficult, they look the other way, repulsed, awkward, avoidant.

      I don't expect much of people, when I find myself disappointed I scold myself for being so naive to think someone actually gave that much of a fuck. I'm rarely disappointed. On the flipside, live in the moment and enjoy the shared moments, laugh with people as much as possible, life is pretty inherently shitty so adopting amused mastery is a great coping mechanism, just realise in your heart of hearts you've got only yourself "when the chips are down" third party sacrifice and help is in short supply for a man.

      [–]pleasedontknowme30 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      I love this particular scene...shows TRUE FRIENDS - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nukRk0WMspo

      Also shows HAMSTERING AT FULL BLAST!

      [–]greycloud24 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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      people don't turn on each other when the chips are down. poverty increases social bonds, because people are safer in groups. even the poor violent crackhead seeks refuge in a gang.

      think of it less as humans turning on each other, and more of in group and out group dynamics. people are fundamentally herd animals. those in the herd are friends, those outside of the herd are not. humans turn on each other when they change herds, not when the chips are down.

      [–]harkrank 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      There's some good inherent in humans. Otherwise goodness and kindness wouldn't exist, which it clearly does. A lot of people on this planet are good. If you grow up in the western world you don't see that.

      [–]Overkillengine 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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      Sure as shit, some jackanape will try to re-frame this as being exploitative of women, without realizing or caring that women are just as prone as men to trying to get something for nothing or for as little as possible.

      The only difference is our society for decades has made it acceptable for women to do it, while training men to give up as much as possible.

      So if certain demographics don't like that men are realizing that applying a version of skinner box training to their social interactions is the most effective method of achieving personal actualization, then too damn bad. They should have rewarded sacrifice more if they did not want that to happen.

      Society made its bed, society can lie in it. Do what works.

      [–]pleasedontknowme30 3 points4 points  (2 children)

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      great writeup. One thing I want to comment specifically on...and this is also assuming a respectful relationship

      He wants sex every other day, minimum. His girlfriend only wants sex once every two weeks. He tells her, honestly, what he wants, then, having the confidence and self-respect to know that he can find a woman more sexually compatible with him elsewhere, he wishes her luck and heads for the door.

      In your example, I am not sure if our imaginary characters actually had a talk about their desires/wants in the bedroom and whether anything can compromise. In an LTR, that seems a much more reasonable approach before just stepping out the door and wishing them good luck.

      [–]un-affiliated 9 points10 points  (0 children)

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      When it comes to something like sex, compromise doesn't work except very short term. If she doesn't feel like having sex more than once every few weeks, she'll be just as resistant when you ask after 3 days as she would if you ask after 1. That turns into a terrible situation of you begging her to honor the compromise and her resenting you. Ask r/deadbedrooms how compromise works; they've all tried it. You can't negotiate her attraction to you.

      If you're far apart it's better to just walk. At that point she will either change her mind about the role of sex in the relationship, or you'll find someone else who wants to fuck you. Either way you win. The take away is that you're not a bad person for saying you enjoy sex and won't be part of a monogamous relationship that doesn't feature it. If compromise gets you what you wanted, go for it. If it doesn't you still have options.

      A woman can end a marriage with kids because she's bored and get applauded for it, but if a guy ends a relationship because he doesn't want to become a virtual eunuch at 30 people will come out the woodwork to call him shallow.

      [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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      Our hypothetical characters can have whatever conversation you'd like to imagine. I'm picturing something like the girlfriend handing the guy a slip of paper with an equation on it, because nerdy girls are hot:

      (14 + 2) / 2 = 8

      The guy would, of course, agree to this compromise where neither one of them gets what they want and both are unhappy, because that's what good men do. Two days later, the girl hands him another slip of paper:

      8 - 2 = 6

      6 / 2 = 3

      14 - 8 = 6

      6 / 14 > 1 / 3

      Ts = 9, not 8

      The guy would shrug and agree since that's almost the same. Two days later, she'd hand him a note.

      "We're going back to every two weeks like I want or I'm dumping you, you beta tool. Way to stick to your boundaries, loser."

      [–]HeadingRed 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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      "Treating yourself like a human is important. Having boundaries, wants, and the self-respect and honesty to go after the life you want isn’t exceptional."

      It's not only what's good for you, it is vital if you want to bring value to any LTR should you choose to go into one. Not taking care of yourself makes you a dependent. She might as well adopt a child or get a dog.

      Good post buddy.

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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      TL;DR Don't pedestelize pussy. Do something - anything, only if you want it.

      [–]16 Endorsed ContributorTRPsubmitter 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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      I think it comes down to entitlement.

      Everyone feels entitled to the same treatment that they observed someone else getting. For example, when women see another woman they feel is comparable to them getting special treatment, then they also feel entitled to that same treatment.

      Hence, when women see men spend time/money/resources on one woman but then use "dread game" or "negging" on another woman, they feel offended. "Why does woman B not get that special treatment? Treat her like a human!". You told a 180 lb woman to her face that you don't find her attractive? Hmm, why do you support the terrorists? You told a single mom that she made an irresponsible sexual choice? Please tell me why you support rape?

      "Treat me like a human" really does carry no meaning. It's simply women trying to relabel "special treatment" (which is something you must EARN) as something they are entitled to instead (as humane treatment is obviously deserved by everyone). Hence, it's all a trick, because if you deny humane treatment to someone, you're obviously an asshole.

      Whereas before, women would EARN a high value mate (rich, smart, etc), having access to a high value man and being treated nicely by high value men has now become a god-given right in womens' minds. They believe they no longer need to do anything inherently other than basic civility.

      Well it all comes down to tit-for-tat in guys' minds. When a guy is shit-tested or has his manhood challenged relentlessly, then he's going to come back with dread game or whatever. That's a natural reaction and response to the woman's behavior. If she is sweet, generous and feminine, then there's no need for dread game and this so-called conflict never even comes to fruition.

      The bottomline: Women often misconstrue reality to match their FEELINGS. They feel ostracized, mocked and humiliated because a man they liked asked out the college girl intern instead of them.

      [–]AchillesOtherLeg 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      Upvote

      One piece of the pill I swallowed shortly before I subbed was the need to look after myself. I look around and I think back at all I've seen. It's very common from what I can see that Men internalize the lack of care everyone has for them and neglect themselves. This can result in exhausting the ability to handle your shit including a/some woman. We spend most of our time at work openly being treated as utilities, part of the fabric of the system that sustains us all but we must remember that we are not tools.

      I think that the source of mens sacrificial behaviour stems more from this internalized lack of care than the demands of women (unless you're talking about them in aggregate). Of course this idea that men have no inherent value is actually ass backward. We are the creators and caretakers of civilization, they are practically free riders.

      Far from being perceived as selfish if we attend to ourselves we are likely to appear healthy, relaxed, happy and in control (of ourselves and our environment). This is attractive and a good in itself.

      [–]BrothaTom 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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      Insightful post. It is tragic that altruistic thoughts are often modeled after a parabola, by being overly sacrificial you take huge risk in being viewed as weak or as an opportunity to be taken advantaged of by others. Of course, it is also the ignorance of my own blindness towards reality that allowed things to escalate to this point. All that I ever asked for my s.o. was just sticking with the fundamentals and communicate with honesty, and even those attempts are "quasi" at best.

      Manipulative or not, I am done with woman (or anyone else really) gaming a relationship just for their own advantage. Life with the ball in their court suck; they can't dribble, can't pass don't want to learn or do anything to improve the collective outcome. It is not about blame, more than it's about the negative utility in their approach to relationships.

      [–]godzilla942 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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      treat yourself like you're the president of the united states

      [–]MrRexels 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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      Better yet, treat yourself like an actually worthwhile person!

      [–]exoduslife 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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      ...like princesses

      i often think about the correlation between the way women behave and how their fathers treated them while they were growing up - I often see girls, being called "princess" and spoiled by their fathers and i wonder what they will be like once they grow-up. By placing that idea, of them being special above everything else, inside their minds at that young age it's a given that they will behave like a princess and manipulate people to get what they want.

      Quite the opposite is true for young boys; so much bullshit about being noble, the lesser man, the good guy is being fed through all kinds of mediums into their minds that once they do grow up, they are at a disadvantage compared to their female peers.

      [–]16 Endorsed ContributorCyralea 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

      It's pertinent to note how much of what they say is Powertalk. "Just treat them like human beings" changes the dialogue such that not treating a woman like a princess is considered a deviation from standard. It's a clever use of dialogue that sets the frame in a way that benefits women most.

      Establishing your own boundaries is simply a re-establishment to the mean. Have your boundaries, let her have hers, let the chips fall where they fall. You have other options if she doesn't want to continue with you.

      Women primarily use Powertalk to maximize their advantage in life, men use action. Treat the subtext of "Just treat them like human beings" as a shit test to be powered through.

      [–]insane_psycho 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

      I think the mantra of "treating women like humans" is entirely disingenuous. It sounds good and appealing but when people say that they never mean anything close to what the OP is talking about. I would be extremely surprised if women actually wanted to be treated like humans as opposed to the preferential treatment they get just about all the time.

      They want the illusion of equality / equal treatment with all the special privileges of chivalry thrown in as well.

      [–]1PaulRivers10 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

      True, it's one of the shaming phrases that makes you sound bad while being vague enough that it can mean anything. They do want to be treated like human - because it's so ambiguous it just means whatever they want it to mean.

      Holding a door for a woman can be "treating her like a human being", or it can be a demeaning act that's "not treating her like a human being", depending on the needs of the speaker.

      [–]southernmost 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

      You missed the point. Treat them the way they need to be treated to elicit desired behavior, not the way they say they want to be treated.

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

      [deleted]

        [–]Vulgrr_Display 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

        You answered your own question. The guy in the story was himself. Turns out she wasn't compatible. He moved on. End of story. There's nothing to see here.

        [–]the_dwarfee -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

        sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

        Don't you think women get manipulated into staying in a relationship also? If you think not then you have no idea

        [–]SINGER12 -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

        sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

        WALL OF TEXT INC (I'm sorry!)

        OP,

        I empathise with your overarching message...to not put the pussy on the pedestal and to treat everyone with respect, but you lost me when you concluded that he wasn't abusive or that his behaviour isn't problematic.

        The guy kept seeing her after the talk. And even after they weren't together.

        If someone REALLY wanted to treat others with respect, they would walk away or stop someone who doesn't know any better from selling themselves short. He may not have manipulated her into fucking more than she wanted to...but he definitely took advantage of what was stupidly offered to him. It's most certainly not respectful.

        "Treating yourself like a self-respecting human being, having boundaries, being honest about what you want" isn't what's abusive or manipulative. But this guy didn't have boundaries, or if he did, they were only things he didn't want to do.

        Just because she threw herself at him doesn't excuse him to take advantage of the situation. That's abusive as shit.

        C'mon, guy, let's be real. You're too focused on trying to (rightfully) vilify how some women try (and fail) to have their cake and eat it too...that you've completely overlooked what a dick the guy was after he stood up for himself.

        Sounds like they both have a lot of growing up to do... And you need to calm down a little. The girl in the example isn't doing anything particularly "evil." She's just not worth his time, the end.

        As for treating women as human beings VS princesses... I don't identify with the princess treatment but I expect someone to be willing to put their needs above mine in certain situations, just like I would for them. The keyword there would be willing, and that it's a case by case scenario. I would never ask them to or deliberately put him in a situation where he feels compelled to, and he in turn shouldn't either. Hopefully you'll never have to be in a situation where you have to give things up. And if/when that time comes, let's hope you don't have to face giving up your non-negotiable things you expect in a relationship... but life happens.

        For me, it's that trust in the other person, especially in a serious LTR, that they will work things out with you, that really matters. I don't expect that kind of devotion from anyone other than a significant other or a parent. Maybe my best friend. I certainly don't expect people in general to make concessions for me in dire situations. If that puts me in the 'please treat me like a princess' camp, count me in. Because I certainly hope my significant other treats me better than 'people in general.'

        As for more ORDINARY/ less serious levels, if I'm in love, I'm gonna' love spoiling the shit out of him. Hopefully he does too! Then again, I am painfully aware of the many different ways SOs can spoil each other. Whether that's flowers on a random Tuesday, or he knows I like kisses on the forehead doesn't really matter. It's as simple as going above and beyond in being considerate VS catering to a girl by doing what he doesn't believe in/makes him unhappy.

        There is nothing wrong with being above and beyond. I think it's actually kind of nice.

        The most important thing I want to point out in the wall of text I wrote above is that I'm also sure a lot of gals out there feel the same way I do. You probably just have to get better at weeding them out, which I guess that's what TRP's "we're figuring out our new and improved 'sexual strategy'" mantra stands for for? Maybe?

        And if that's the case, I even encourage TRP's attempt at a pseudo-standpoint-theory-esque way (in the heteronormative world we live in, mind you) of trying to find ways to stay down to Earth without being a doormat... But maybe you can focus MORE on what men who struggle with getting taken advantage of can do rather than vilify hypothetical females using broad strokes and TMing phrases like Real Men like you did at the end. Women's magazines in particular are notorious for doing the same to men, but stooping to their level probably won't get you any closer than they are in trying to figure shit out.

        I for one am stoked at the thought of nice guys who otherwise finish last to start standing up for themselves. Can't wait till more of you figure this 'sexual strategy' thing out. There are enough douchebags in the world to date all the broads that aren't worth your time. Let them deal with the drama amongst themselves.

        PS. It's so long I can't bother proof reading it. Fml.

        TLDR; Manipulative? No. Abusive? Mmmm... :/ Dick move? 100%. Then I suggested the OP focus more on what men should do without necessarily flaming women using broad strokes 'cause it detracts from his main point. (Main point being don't put the pussy on the pedestal.)

        [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

        If someone REALLY wanted to treat others with respect, they would walk away or stop someone who doesn't know any better from selling themselves short. He may not have manipulated her into fucking more than she wanted to...but he definitely took advantage of what was stupidly offered to him. It's most certainly not respectful.

        You're really overstepping your bounds here. This right here -- this thing you just said -- is paternalistic. It's patriarchal. It's misogynistic.

        When a woman offers sex to a man, the only thing he ought to consider is, "Do I want to have sex with this woman?"

        It's not his place to substitute his judgment for hers, decide that her expectations are unrealistic, decide that she's making a mistake, decide that she doesn't know what she's doing, and decide that he knows what's best for her. Who the fuck does he think he is, trying to decide what's best for this woman, or what she really wants, or whether she's "selling herself short" or not?

        She's a fucking adult. She can make her own decisions. He gave her honest information. He didn't lie to her or mislead her. She made a decision based on that honest information. Who the fuck is he to conclude that she made the wrong decision, and to substitute his own judgment for hers?

        [–]16 Endorsed ContributorCyralea 0 points1 point  (2 children)

        sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

        You're coming dangerously close to adopting a victim-mentality. Women aren't mindless children with no agency. If she makes bad choices it's on her to realize that, and to correct her situation. It's feminist ideas like this that are often the most misogynist.

        As for more ORDINARY/ less serious levels, if I'm in love, I'm gonna' love spoiling the shit out of him. Hopefully he does too!

        You clearly don't understand the male experience. Most men come to places like TRP precisely because they find the "Give 100% and hopefully they'll give back" doesn't work. Ever. It's very similar to a negotiation. Imagine if you went to a car dealer and said "Here's $40,000, now give me whatever you think is the best I deserve with that, I'll take it". There's no way you'll come out ahead.

        [–]SINGER12 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

        Her needing to sort herself out has nothing to do with him not taking advantage of her. Does one behaviour feed the other? Absolutely. So the two issues are correlated, but not causal and should be discussed as such. (Edit) Hence the good for him for standing up, bad on him for being a dick stance. Neither excuses the other's shortcoming. (End of edit)

        As for me not understanding the male experience, I may not be male but giving a 100% and not coming out ahead is a problem BOTH sexes face. Declaring one sex to have MORE instances of this unfortunate scenario is useless in a discussion where one is trying to rise above being exploited... (Edited on:) How each sex decides to not be exploited may be different, because both sexes are faced with different societal pressures/expectations, but claiming I have no idea what it's like to give my best and have that not returned in kind simply because I'm XX sounds like you have the victim mentality.

        Edit for clarity!

        [–]16 Endorsed ContributorCyralea 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

        You misunderstand me. I don't doubt your sincerity, but your advice would be akin to me advising late-term women on common issues they'll face just before pregnancy. That women experience similar-looking issues is irrelevant to us; we want to know how to navigate the situation best. Your advice may work for women, but it most certainly does not for men. I can understand why you might think it's relevant to us, but the collective thousands of us here have very different experiences.

        To take advantage of someone requires by definition for that person to be weak or in a compromised state. To suggest that a woman isn't strong enough to handle herself without men taking care of her is again, deeply misogynist. I'm surprised that you would come here with that.