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[–]joaquim56 49 points50 points  (91 children)

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You married guys have it hard. Kudos for fighting for your marriage and your needs.

OP, do you recommend marriage in hindsight? I do want a family and believe a marriage is best place family can happen, but it just seems like a grind.

It's like a non-stop shit test.

[–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 144 points145 points  (58 children)

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The only reason you should ever, ever marry is if you want to have kids in a nuclear family setting. There is no other reason to get married. That said, marriage to a good woman is the best environment for having kids.

People will go on and on about the joys of "sharing your life with someone," but there is absolutely nothing you can do with a wife that you can't do with a woman outside of a legal marriage.

Once you're married, for the rest of your marriage, every single thing you say or do, and every single thing your wife says or does, has this tiny little barbed needle in it. She never (usually) threatens, you never (usually) ask, and most days, things seem almost normal, but there's always this undercurrent, however slight, that she can divorce you at any time, and if things ever get bad, she will.

You can't fight, you can't have a serious discussion, you can't accidentally drop a dinner plate, you can't work too late, you can't refuse a request she really wants, you definitely can't lose your job -- without worrying, just a little bit, if this is going to lead to divorce. Every single moment of your life after getting married is spent considering the possibility of divorce and weighing that risk against whatever it is you're thinking of doing or not doing.

If she really wants to hold that sword over your head, sex is forevermore on her terms, the house operates the way she wants it to operate, she buys whatever she wants, she decorates however she wants, she raises the kids however she wants, and she sticks her tongue out at you while her finger hovers over the button. Any time she wants, she gets your children, your house, half of your assets, and monthly payments from you for the foreseeable future. But since technically, you have the right file for divorce, too, and voluntarily give her all of that, it's an "equal partnership," right?

If your wife doesn't respect the hell out of you, then the only thing keeping her from pushing that button is convenience. A divorce is hard and inconvenient, and as long as she thinks she can still control you, it's more convenient for her to keep the marriage. As long as you keep paying her to stay married to you and don't make waves, she won't push the button.

Sound like a future you want?

[–]100Timeswww 31 points32 points  (4 children)

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Once you're married, for the rest of your marriage, every single thing you say or do, and every single thing your wife says or does, has this tiny little barbed needle in it. She never (usually) threatens, you never (usually) ask, and most days, things seem almost normal, but there's always this undercurrent, however slight, that she can divorce you at any time, and if things ever get bad, she will.

You can't fight, you can't have a serious discussion, you can't accidentally drop a dinner plate, you can't work too late, you can't refuse a request she really wants, you definitely can't lose your job -- without worrying, just a little bit, if this is going to lead to divorce. Every single moment of your life after getting married is spent considering the possibility of divorce and weighing that risk against whatever it is you're thinking of doing or not doing.

If she really wants to hold that sword over your head, sex is forevermore on her terms, the house operates the way she wants it to operate, she buys whatever she wants, she decorates however she wants, she raises the kids however she wants, and she sticks her tongue out at you while her finger hovers over the button. Any time she wants, she gets your children, your house, half of your assets, and monthly payments from you for the foreseeable future. But since technically, you have the right file for divorce, too, and voluntarily give her all of that, it's an "equal partnership," right?

If your wife doesn't respect the hell out of you, then the only thing keeping her from pushing that button is convenience. A divorce is hard and inconvenient, and as long as she thinks she can still control you, it's more convenient for her to keep the marriage. As long as you keep paying her to stay married to you and don't make waves, she won't push the button.

Sound like a future you want?

This is something that doesn't get brought up enough in our society. It's like the elephant in the room that no one dares to talk about, for whatever reason. I've seen cases of the system working for a poor woman in an abusive relationship who needed to leave with the kids and receive payment from her ex.

However, for the majority of middle class to upper middle class marriages, the women always will be able to use divorce as a threat and follow through with it if they simply feel like it.

[–]jeffunity 7 points8 points  (3 children)

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This is why alimony fails as a societal concept. Support my kids? Sure. Take money for nothing? No fucking way

[–]2 Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 7 points8 points  (2 children)

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Crushing child support with zero accountability for the mother as to what she spends it on is the same as money for nothing. My ex is getting exactly that. Even when the kids came to live with me she got paid by me. Its a gravy train for her, punishment for us, and it does not fucking matter if we were good or bad, or if she was abhorrent, she is rewarded no matter what in most states.

Never again. A vasectomy is the best present I ever gave myself, close second is laser eye surgery.

[–]1independentmale 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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A vasectomy is the best present I ever gave myself, close second is laser eye surgery.

Hah! I did both as well. Completely changed my life for the better. Would do again.

[–]2 Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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Wish I could have done both sooner. I'm so old now I need reading glasses, which sucks, but its better than bifocals. Getting out of the gene pool has been great, no more worries about getting some bitch knocked up and being fucked over by the state, then never getting to see my kid. Once was enough for me.

[–]1PaulRivers10 18 points19 points  (4 children)

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If your wife doesn't respect the hell out of you, then the only thing keeping her from pushing that button is convenience

People keep writing this. But frankly, I think you've bought into the female frame of hiding reality right in front of you.

It's true that in the US, the system is biased towards women. It's true that to many women are actually stupid enough follow through on this, and shoot themselves in the foot.

But reality has the ultimate dread game that so far has not been changed - past some point in her teens (and maybe early 20's), a woman's SMV (sexual market value) is always going down. Maybe by a little, maybe by a lot.

I don't know of any women who - past 30 - got divorced and ended up with a more attractive guy than they had before. My own parents are an example of this - my father ended up dating someone else, and then his now-current girlfriend. While I love my mother, my dad's current girlfriend is a far better relationship prospect, and more attractive. My mother, on the other hand, hasn't ended up dating anyone else long term.

I look around at people in my parents age range and it's always the same - sometimes the woman dates or remarries someone else, but it's always a step down for her. For him, it's usually a step up. Sometimes he doesn't step up, but that's more the exception than the rule.

The thing that keeps her from pushing that button, and the thing that should motivate her to keep your relationship happy, is the ultimate dread game - as she gets older and older, she's just going to get less and less attractive. It's better for her to solidify a relationship as she gets older and keep things happy and as sexy as possible, than it is for her to leave, because the carousel in her 30's is broken down and rickety.

Of course some women are idiots. And feminism has done a lot to try to cover this up or complain about it. But most women say it's not true but realize it on an emotional level.

[–]Dark_Shroud 13 points14 points  (1 child)

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The problem is her friends, tv, movies, magazines, & feminist crap on the internet tell women otherwise. Reality is harsh to a woman in her 30s or older.

The ones with half a brain are smart enough not to blow up a comfortable ride. But some women are spoiled and don't know better.

I'm not saying men are saints either, that's just a different discussion.

[–]2 Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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Even the smart ones will downgrade thinking its the way to go. I have yet to see a woman divorce for no good reason, and do better with her second husband. Both my ex wives, and all my ex girlfriends have done worse than me after they cheated and left. Not a single one has done better, and honestly I'm only mediocre in terms of looks and finances. I really enjoy the schadenfreude I get from what they do after they decide to go stupid.

[–]StarkAtheist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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I agree, most women are idiots, and our American culture tells them that no matter how old, or especially how FAT they are (thank you Oprah)... that you are worthy of Brad Pitt, even after they pull the divorce trigger.

[–]1PaulRivers10 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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I appreciate the responses and comments, however, I think you're missing the point.

Is her convincing you that every move you make can lead to a divorce real - or is it a shit test that you're failing because you're bought into it and are living in the fear?

Yes, if she leaves you she can hurt you disproportionately. But does she herself end up better off? A woman over 30, with kids and an ex-husband - what are her real prospects there?

I've just started to think that that mentality - that every dropped dish, argument, etc is going to lead to her walking out on you - is an effective manipulation to keep control over you. She's creating an image. Society-wide women have created this image.

But it doesn't have much real-world backing - if she divorces you, her romantic prospects are nearly always worse than yours. She talks a lot about how she has the power, but what she has the power to do is to hurt both of you. She doesn't have the power to make her life better by doing it.

[–]1 MMachiavellianRed 40 points41 points  (0 children)

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Perfect advertisement for why you should never get married.

[–]2 Mredpillschool 12 points13 points  (1 child)

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[–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 27 points28 points  (0 children)

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Reading that made me angry. If I weren't stuck in the office, I'd go lift a few cars. I'll have to settle for raping a female co-worker and maybe kicking a few babies down the stairs...wait a minute...that'll get me divorced and cost me a shit-ton. Better not.

Another violent man kept in line by modern divorce laws.

[–]caseycour 10 points11 points  (3 children)

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You married the wrong woman, mate. My experience has been like living with a best friend I'm sexual attracted to. None of the stressful crap you describe. Guess I'm lucky.

[–]mudra311 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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You are VERY lucky. Or just know a good thing when you have it. Unfortunately, blue pulled and non-red pilled men think things like bad sex or infrequent sex will change with an LTR or marriage. You can't develop chemistry, that shit just happens and you'll know it right away.

[–]2 Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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There is no right woman here. You either put up with her shit and let her run everything while going to work and trading your life for dollars, or you don't put up with her shit and bust your ass in the gym to keep your smv so high she knows you can do far better, but sometimes even the latter way will end up with her going stupid and running off with a loser.

How long you been married? I thought I had the right one, didn't make it ten years. Shit started at seven. Before that she was wonderful.

[–]ColdEiric 4 points5 points  (11 children)

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So why did you do it? Kids? Needed to present the image of a family man, as politician does?

[–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 37 points38 points  (6 children)

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Kids. My daughter is awesome!

Also, back then, I really didn't know any better. I was 20-something, never had much luck with women growing up, and was excited as hell to have the fifth woman I'd ever dated and the second I'd ever fucked actually willing to marry me. The signs were there before we got married, but I figured things would get better once we settled down. Things got worse instead. The Red Pill really turned things around for me. We're not where a "red pill marriage" ought to be, and honestly, I think there are some parts of my relationship with my wife that will never be "fixed," but things are piles better than they were a year or two ago.

[–]ISODAK 17 points18 points  (4 children)

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Pretty much the same for me. I fell for blue pill nonsense all my life, married the second woman I dated, had an awesome son, and a wreck of a marriage.

I would not recommend it to anyone, even with the knowledge I have now to probably find a better woman.

That said, if all the best guys stop having kids, the future goes to shit, as they're raised by spineless betas, or even worse, bitter, self-serving single mothers, feeding them endless blue pill insanity.

I'd like to keep hope alive that I can meet an awesome woman and take another shot at kids, but it flies in the face of everything I know about women in modern US society.

[–]subcover 6 points7 points  (3 children)

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Married after age 35, when I had already figured out some RP type stuff, so marriage was better than it could have been. Was pretty assertive to get her. Had 2 kids within the first 5 years of marriage. But I've needed the reinforcement from online stuff like this that's become available to deal with the shit of the past 5 years of my marriage.

OP's experiences are so much like my own it was like I was reading my own writing. But I've reacted differently. This sort of shit does not deserve a straight answer, like what he proposes as "alpha". Attraction just isn't what it used to be mainly because her main emotional attachment now is to the kids. This is part of having kids, some guys seem to avoid it but not so many.

My wife's body is still hot, I've recently regained a higher level of sexual access by maintaining frame. It sucks when wife can draw you into beta behavior out of fear to protect the kids from her! This truly is 100 times harder than single game. I feel like I am in prison or a long endless tunnel, when their mother / my wife sometimes acts out against them, and the schools sometimes act out against them too. Very often now I just want to pack some shit and move away. I've already given them the most important support I can, anyway, and formed the kids to some extent in my image.

I think fatherhood used to be easier, but everything I sign up for in life turns out to be more complicated for me than it was for my parents. I have given myself permission to declare victory and walk away at any time, but I probably don't have the balls / craziness to do that and will stay here endlessly. When wife sees I really am about to do something, she'll preempt and demand a divorce. But it will just be psychological warfare because the kids are pretty far along.

Our society is dysfunctional enough that it just isn't fun any more. For anyone. If I hadn't had kids I would regret that now. But now that I have, I'm so ready to have a new adventure.

[–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

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When wife sees I really am about to do something, she'll preempt and demand a divorce. But it will just be psychological warfare because the kids are pretty far along...Our society is dysfunctional enough that it just isn't fun any more. For anyone. If I hadn't had kids I would regret that now. But now that I have, I'm so ready to have a new adventure.

I feel your pain. My little girl turns 18 in 5,302 more days.

[–]53Pirate 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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So long as your daughter is unmarried and in college/technical school; or still living at home with momma, you'll still be on the hook for some support. Don't believe me? Just wait & see.

And if you are currently providing her health insurance you'll be on the hook for that till she's 26 or married.

[–]caseycour 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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ah.. this sheds more light on why my experience has been different than yours. I married about the 30th woman i'd had sex and she was probably my 20th girlfriend or so. I had a lot of relationship experience before her and really had what I wanted out of relationship dialed in. I've always been the leader in the relationship.. but really we're closer to equals.. we consult each other and seek each other's approval on anything we might do that could affect both of us.

[–]jcslzr 6 points7 points  (0 children)

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you may get married because you think you found an unicorn but when the kids arrive, is like happiness walking around your house, and I mean real happiness, you do not give a shit what is going on in the world if your kid is asking you a question or wants to play.

yep, marriage is a bad deal, UNLESS you want kids.

[–]Dreamtrain 7 points8 points  (2 children)

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I'd like kids some day for two reasons, one a bit primal and the other is more emotional.

Firstly, I'd simply like to pass on my genes. Secondly, I would want to share everything I've learned/become and see my children accomplish what I could not.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

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[deleted]

    [–]Dreamtrain 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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    As a Sperm donor the child will inherit my body but not my will.

    Adopted/foster will only inherit my will but not my body.

    Truth to be told, I have considered the sperm donor part a bit more, but the one clinic within reasonable distance is apparently overrun with donors.

    [–]1WishIHadMyOldUsernam -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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    That's not marriage, that's a shitty marriage. Get off TRP and get some counseling.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    We should talk about prenups more around here.

    [–]juicy_truth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    As much as loved your parable, you are generalizing all marriages and wives based on your own experience. There are no barbed comments in my marriage. Fair and honest communication can exist inside of a marriage. I hate to say it, but you wound up with a high maintenance wife who is a manipulator. My wife exhibits none of these traits.

    But you are right about a marriage being necessary for the nuclear family option.

    [–]Swimmingdunce 26 points27 points  (15 children)

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    Not all marriages are like that. My wife and I have been together for just over 30 years and we have sex 2 or 3 time per week. I usually initiate/ask and I'm rarely turned down. Even if she's not "in the mood" she will usually be obliging, or give me a hand job or blowjob. I can safely say that neither of us has ever used sex as a weapon or withheld it as punishment.

    [–]6Invalidity 23 points24 points  (5 children)

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    You come from a different generation. Times have dramatically changed and your wife is likely not the scourge from the more recent generations.

    Women are multitudes more entitled than they ever were before, and their attraction wanes more easily nowadays and all accountability has been essentially stripped from them. Marriage is not suitable for most men today.

    [–]pogra 16 points17 points  (4 children)

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    Isn't it funny how all of this has happened with the rise of feminism?

    [–]The_Determinator 7 points8 points  (2 children)

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    Well, not really that funny...

    [–]GC0W30 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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    About as funny as the rise of Skynet would be....

    [–]OneTouchHowMuch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    and social media makes it even worse

    [–]1Ill_mumble_that 9 points10 points  (2 children)

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    I can safely say that neither of us has ever used sex as a weapon or withheld it as punishment.

    This is very important. The moment she even references something along those lines you have to shut that shit down. If she's religious at all, my favorite quote is 1. Cor 7:5, which is some age old wisdom. I'm an atheist fyi.

    [–]subcover 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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    I'm an atheist fyi.

    So was Saul the tax collector. Even after the name change, most of what he wrote was just guessing.

    sorry couldn't resist ...

    [–]1Ill_mumble_that 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    OH I could go on and on about the bullshit in the bible. Saul (Paul) was probably one of my favorite examples of a guy who just made shit up as he went along while trying to found a religion.

    Luckily for him he was smart enough at the time that he saw repeating matters of common sense as the best way to convince everyone he was an Apostle & simultaneously ensure the advice was timeless. It worked, and now 2000 years later people still go to war over the books he added to the bible.

    [–]BluepillProfessor 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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    The rather belated agreement I reached with my wife on that point (after 20+ years of marriage) changed everything.

    Sexual denial is a nuclear weapon and no woman who refuses to give up the launch codes is worth it. A woman destroys a man's soul using this tactic and she becomes increasingly anxious and bitchy as weeks of celibacy wring on.

    [–]MasonJarTeaDrinker 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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    Good for you man, I like hearing stories like that.

    [–]subcover 0 points1 point  (3 children)

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    Nice bland answer. Care to address any of the real life observations from us other married guys, why you think yours was different, how did kids affect it if you had kids, etc?

    [–]Swimmingdunce 10 points11 points  (2 children)

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    You're asking a difficult question with a complicated answer. My wife and I both believe in traditional gender roles (maybe this is a generational thing as Invalidity suggests). We both have very clearly defined roles and duties within our relationship so I think this minimises potential areas of conflict. Also my wife is also one of the most reasonable, sweet natured and intelligent people I know. I constantly compare the personalities of other women I meet and wonder how any man puts up with them. So maybe I'm just a lucky guy who found a unicorn.

    [–]subcover 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    And no mention of kids, which raise the shitstorm potential by an order of magnitude or more these days. You don't use them for farm chores, and you have to worry about what they're reading and texting.

    [–]Condorman80 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    Sounds like you're a very lucky man.

    [–]ReverendDexter 13 points14 points  (2 children)

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    Not OP, but divorced.

    do you recommend marriage in hindsight?

    No. At least not for the reasons I got married, which were along the lines of "because that's what I think I'm supposed to do given our situation". I might still be blinded a bit by societal norms, but I do believe that marriage is worth it for some couples, just not anywhere near the volume of couples that actually do get married.

    I do want a family

    Why? I thought I wanted that, too, and I would never give up kids/dogs/etc now that I have them, but having a family, quite frankly, fucking sucks. Put your own needs first as much as you can and you're still spending 90% or better of your waking life handling other people's needs. Got any hobbies you enjoy? Not anymore you don't. Maybe you'll get 2 hours to yourself once a week, if you schedule it, and make it beyond clear that you are not to be bothered for anything short of a life/death situation. Go read through /r/BreakingDad some afternoon.

    it just seems like a grind

    On the nose.

    It's like a non-stop shit test.

    I wouldn't say that, but you are giving up liberty for security, and you're going to reap the consequences of that decision. This isn't some alpha/beta bullshit about being an indentured servant to your wife, either, it's about shit that simply needs to get done and you're going to be the one that has to do it. If you get off that kind of thing, and some men do, you'll enjoy it.

    [–]morsX 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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    I read one OP and a few of the top replies and shit if those guys aren't lost.

    [–]respectyourprivilege 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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    It's easy to know you didn't need kids now you have them. It's a totally different story when you're still just wondering what that's like, and whether it's that life-fulfilling change that people say it is. It must suck for the disillusioned men that don't feel so differently after having kids.

    I feel like being a parent isn't worth it, and I can say now that I don't want kids. But when I'm 30 or 35 and I'm up at night wondering 'what if?', and whether I'm going to have any legacy it's a different story.

    [–]Dark_Shroud 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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    If you ever consider getting married talk to a lawyer and put your assets (house/land, firearms, vehicles) in a trust that some divorce court judge cannot just break. Also set up a living will, especially if you start to make good money.

    Never give anyone access to your checking & savings accounts & retirement plans, even if you get married. Just add a person as a beneficiary in case you die. This makes acquiring ownership quick & easy.

    Honestly you should do this anyway when you get start to acquire any kind of serious financial assets.

    [–]whinemoreplease 2 points3 points  (6 children)

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    I like being married. What PUA (this was before TRP existed) taught me was to have standards and set boundaries. I learned to make it clear that I wanted some one in my life that was positively contributing value and making each day better. I met someone that demonstrated she was willing to do that consistently and repeatedly over two years, who was also able to deal with my issues and my criticisms of her as an adult. I believed that she would be willing to put in the effort to make my life better every day for the rest of my life and I was willing to do the same for her. That was an active choice that I made which I realized I can unmake if she every stops giving value.

    Anyway, point is, I'm really happy and pleased. And we're spending our 1st anniversary traveling around Italy and Poland. Life lesson is find women who work to consistently make your life better, not someone who just wants to take.

    [–][deleted]  (5 children)

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    [deleted]

      [–]whinemoreplease 0 points1 point  (4 children)

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      Yeah, I know. Part of the reason is to give perspective on why I was happy getting married. I realized I have a choice to get out if things aren't meeting my expectation. That's been one thing I've focused on communicating -- we are together by choice, not obligation. If you're in a situation out of your own choosing, it's pretty hard to be resentful in that situation isn't it?

      I just wanted to give a reason for why people might get married, because TRP/PUA is very heavily anti-marriage. I agree with being very weary marriage, but no to the point of not even considering the possibility. Knowing that pitfalls of male-female relations is very important if one is going to consider it. The legal ramifications are covered a lot by Mens Rights and the social aspect is covered by TRP/PUA.

      Kids? Losing a job? Gaining weight? Loss of family members? Illness?

      Most of what you've listed listed still comes down to adding value and setting expectations though -- the expectations that we're still constantly choosing to be together and work together to improve our lives even when other aspects might be stressful. It's simply not okay to use any of it as an excuse to not give a shit about making the other person happy. That's priority #1 -- choosing to be happy and making the person happy.

      [–][deleted]  (3 children)

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      [deleted]

        [–]whinemoreplease 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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        But I do have a choice, I can always choose to walk away (or fly away as the case may be) and to keep separate bank accounts. Maybe my thoughts on this will change if kids come into the equation. But part of it is choosing well, and I've seen no reason to doubt that my wife is a person who prefers giving over taking. Obviously, if that changes, the equation changes and I can revisit as necessary.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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        [deleted]

          [–]whinemoreplease 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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          I guess it's partly trust and not buying into fear and paranoia. My experiences with people have generally been positive. I feel that most people want to be decent. Pigeonholing and looking for reasons to confirm negativity turns into a self fulfilling prophecy.

          A lot of women are the kind of women to give their partner love and affection for a few years, until one day they don't. Or the kind to be happy, until suddenly they aren't - through kids, over-familiarity, gradual change, mid-life crisis etc. It's not possible to predict what she'll be like in 20 years -- or what you'll be like either.

          Absolutely. And this is why my position is that we continue working to make our collective lives better and to make the effort to make one another happy. If either of us ever feels like not making the effort, the relationship is dead in the water.

          what do you see the marriage adding to your relationship that benefits you?

          Nothing big or drastic. For me it's just been like having a really good friend that I can share my life with -- someone I fully believe has my back and best interest in mind. There are more tangible things, like making sure I'm well taken care of, especially things that I'd rather not do or put off doing myself -- like laundry or cleaning. This goes two-ways.

          Yes, you do still have the option to leave, but it's not as simple as it was before. What did you gain to justify losing those powers

          First, getting into a marriage with someone where you're paranoid their going to fuck you is a bad idea. Living in constant paranoia means that you'd have to stunt your trust in people. I think this is unhealthy. I don't you can be fully open when there's a mentality of mistrust.

          Second, for me it's not about losing something. If I was constantly worried about whether I was getting an equal or greater trade, it'd be a shit ton of pettiness and feeling screwed. For me, it's about being happy, which is much more subjective and harder to quanity -- but being happy is something I just know, very binary. As long as I'm happy, things are working. I'm a big believer in simplifying.

          [–]theredpillacct 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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          Not only that, but the repercussion that you could face if the marriage doesnt work.

          [–]srtor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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          Simple one word answer: NEVER get married. Never try to procreate unless you are 'absolutely sure' about your partner. Even that should happen when both of you are matured and willing to 'settled down'. But again, Marriage is off-limit.

          [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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          [deleted]

            [–]BluepillProfessor 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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            Notice how all the happy marriages have one thing in common- the wife does not deny the husband sex. Somebody should write something about this....

            [–]OneTouchHowMuch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            growing up, my family taught my sisters to never ever deny the SO sex and to never use sex as a weapon or negotiation tactic. Didn't really realize how RP I was raised until I swallowed the pill.

            [–]Meglomaniac 201 points202 points  (30 children)

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            "If all you have to offer is sex.. then yes"

            [–]iggybdawg 199 points200 points  (15 children)

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            I've told my wife "I can't appreciate the other things you do when we don't have sex". When she protested, I reiterated it as "Hot sex isn't a scored item on the 'how good a wife are you?' exam. It's writing your name at the top so you get a grade at all."

            [–][deleted]  (11 children)

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            [deleted]

              [–]iggybdawg 49 points50 points  (10 children)

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              There's another analogy I heard on r DeadBedrooms that I love:

              Think of your man as a hungry outdoor cat. It's totally up to you whether you feed the cat or not. But it's not up to you at all whether or not the cat eats. If you don't feed the cat enough, don't worry, it'll eat something. Maybe it will feed itself, but it's more likely it'll find a nice neighbor who will feed it, too. If you don't feed the cat at all or the food you give it isn't as nice as the neighbor's, one day it just won't come home to you anymore.

              [–]RickSHAW_Tom 7 points8 points  (0 children)

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              Or it will start eating garbage.

              [–]rebuildingMyself 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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              You can reverse the genders amd exchange sex for validation/attention amd it will fucking mean the same thing. It's like men and women are equal in opposite ways in a bizarro world sense of the word

              [–]The_Determinator 5 points6 points  (7 children)

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              That makes it sound like a fucking chore.

              [–]iggybdawg 13 points14 points  (6 children)

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              Yeah, cooking, hell, even eating, is a chore to some, but a joy to others.

              I took it to mean that sex is a biological urge that you aren't going to suppress. Your SO is going to fill that need above the satiation point, with or without your assistance.

              You see a lot of SJWs around reddit that like to pick on people, especially in DeadBedrooms, saying "Your SO doesn't OWE you sex!" Well, no shit! But did you (SJW) know that for the same reasons I can't force my wife to have sex with me, she can't force me to not have sex with someone else?

              [–]The_Determinator 0 points1 point  (5 children)

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              That puts a new perspective on it for me, thanks. I thought it got the point across, but feeding your cat reads like the wrong type of metaphor for something that should be enjoyable.

              As far as biological urges go though, "he's gonna eat food today" or "he's gonna piss eventually, make sure you're the toilet for him!" aren't much better.

              Sleep then? "He needs to sleep every night, but it's up to you to make sure your bed is his best option." Yeah, I guess. Can't come up with many enjoyable biological needs though.

              [–]iggybdawg 3 points4 points  (1 child)

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              What is sex? It's excretory, just like piss and shit.

              A man excretes gametes. A woman takes them in and 9 months later excretes a baby.

              The recreational qualities are evolved to ensure that we do it. Those that didn't like it got breeded out.

              [–]correction_robot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              sex is not excretory dude
              are you 12? ...painful to read this

              [–]oskArtist 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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              What flaws do you see in the cat metaphor?

              [–]OneTouchHowMuch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              That the cat is the only one benefiting.

              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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              [–]iggybdawg -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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              Telling her the truth always works best.

              [–]MrFunnycat -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

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              [–][deleted] 52 points53 points  (12 children)

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              I fucking love TRP. Being able to throw that phrase back at a shit test is what 95% of guys will never experience.

              [–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (11 children)

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              It just makes me glad I'm not married.

              [–][deleted] 43 points44 points  (10 children)

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              Well, you dont have to be, you can do whatever the fuck you want! You are a ship in the ocean without a map or a course, and you have the compass of rationality and evidance to guide you to whatever you want. You have a whole world to explore!

              My girlfriend gives me tons of great sex, she even lets me get a blowjob whenever I ask as long as I dont abuse that privilage, but occasionally she will get defensive and emotional over random things like all women do. Last time it was because she came over without asking first, was doing her own thing on her phone at my place, so I started watching a shitty Shwartznegger movie she didnt like, and she felt oppressed like I didnt care about her feelings. She starts crying and locks herself in my room. Recognizing the irrationality of this and that she is basically acting like a child with a tantrum rather than an adult is the key to passing this shit test. I stay grounded for a few hours, let her pout for the rest of the night on the couch, and then she comes back to me and THANKS me for being so supportive and emotionally stable! We then proceed with a banging marathon of great sex!

              Before trp I wouldnt have even been able to come up with this shit as a satire. It sounds so ridiculous and contrary to everything I was taught about women. I learned "Buy them stuff and treat them like a lady.", and I was a sad lonely virgin while doing just that. Fuck that, treat them like an equal and dont let them get away bullshit you wouldnt tollerate from your friends just because they are pretty.

              [–]Assaultman67 24 points25 points  (1 child)

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              Fuck that, treat them like an equal and don't let them get away bullshit you wouldnt tollerate from your friends just because they are pretty.

              I want to upvote this statement a thousand times.

              [–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

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              I heard "dont put the pussy on the pedastal" before, but never internalized it untill after choking on and swallowing a few red pills.

              [–]iggybdawg 5 points6 points  (3 children)

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              My wife sometimes will get angry at me over something in the car and will sit and sulk, steaming with rage. I used to fight it head on with intense logic, but the reaction was as if I had poured gasoline onto a camp fire: exploding fireballs!

              Now, I just park and exit the car, and act like nothing happened. Within a minute or two, she comes running, apologizing for getting too upset.

              [–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (2 children)

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              I just give her a good hearty belly laugh, tell her she looks cute when she is angry (which pisses her off even more), and give her a hug or kiss on the forehead and tell her that I love her, which she will usually be defensive about (but IDGAF, I love that bitch), and go on to do whatever I was doing without her.

              And then a couple of minutes later, what do you know, its like the problem didnt exist in the first place!

              With my last 3 girlfriends, I thought they key was "communication" and what that meant was overt dialogue and discussion, because thats what communication is to me, written language, rhetoric, and abstraction. So i went to "talk about it" which would just sink them deeper into their own emotional hells. However, that example up there delivers more communication than I could write in several books. Even sex is a form of communication.

              If a picture is worth a thousand words, an interaction is a million.

              [–]19 Endorsed Contributordrrrrrr 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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              Honestly the best phrase I ever learned was "damn you get so sexy when you're all flustered." It not only reframes her anger in her mind as "flustered", it anchors her to the last few times I said that phrase, bringing up the silliness of past arguments and tantrums that she feels embarassed about. She remembers how the last 5 times she flew into a rage, she felt silly and stupid for doing it and wound up apologizing.

              [–]Ambiguousdude 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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              Got to remember that last part

              [–]jova33 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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              I think you may be wrong about that last part. The female in a LTR shouldn't be your equal. In another analogy I've heard it explained as you are the captain and she is your first mate; there's only room for one captain on this ship.

              Women aren't looking for their equal. They're looking for someone to take the lead.

              [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

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              That's entirely subjective. You still treat your first mate like an equal, you just get to have the final say or veto.

              [–]jova33 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              Thanks for the explanation, I was about to ask before your edit.

              I don't really know because my longest LTR was five years, and that's ending in divorce. I treated her like an equal and many times let her have the say so. I'm still trying to learn from my mistakes.

              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              Absolutely bulletproof response.

              Trotted it out a few times, and its never failed me yet.

              [–]james_bell 30 points31 points  (6 children)

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              Upvote for RP stories about married life. Need more of these.

              [–]galaxy_man33 16 points17 points  (3 children)

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              Shit....not just marriage. This story is the PLAY-by-PLAY of the relationship I had with my 4-yr, live-in girlfriend......who cheated on me. I guess she didn't have that bad of a "headache" to fuck the other guy 3 times in our bed while I was away. That bitch scared me for life. TRP saved me.

              [–]morsX 4 points5 points  (0 children)

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              Anytime a woman is not excited to fuck you should be a red flag. It just so happens that I hold frame naturally, never betray my emotions and maintain outcome independence in most situations. Otherwise my last LTR would have been exactly what you experienced.

              [–]james_bell 4 points5 points  (1 child)

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              So much of TRP is about dating though, I'm much more interested in the applying it to LTR situations.

              And your should thank that bitch, at least she opened your eyes. I know 50 year old men who still wonder why she cheated on them when they did everything for her.

              [–]mudra311 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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              Absolutely. When I first discovered redpill, I was still in an LTR. There simply wasn't enough info and I just looked like a jackass for about 2 months of the relationship. Now I know that the goal of a red pill LTR is to basically keep a similar dynamic from dating to relationship. I was a smooth mother fucker when I was dating my last LTR but switched to comfortable beta mode later.

              [–]iggybdawg 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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              I've got plenty: learning RP when already married is like playing an RPG without the ability to save and backtrack.

              [–]16 Endorsed ContributorCyralea 101 points102 points  (21 children)

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              "Right now I want you. I can be with other women, but right now I want you." If she responds with anything other than compliance move away from her without so much as saying a word. Let her hamster run. That one sentence both conveys that you're not a loser and that she is still valued in your eyes.

              Married man game is so much harder. Kudos to you for making it work, but it's a bit akin to going to war with nerf weapons.

              [–]Overkillengine 45 points46 points  (5 children)

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              Giving up the greater chance of being actually able to walk away at any point with minimal resource losses if a woman is not meeting her end of the bargain...yeah no thanks. Props for doing what one can to make a disadvantageous contract work out though.

              Had a waitress recently ask me my opinion on marriage. I told her "It's betting half or more of your shit the other person will love you forever."

              She was at a loss for words for a few moments after that.

              Amusingly enough she still tries to suck me into conversations every time she sees me walk by the diner.

              [–]Visimicus 9 points10 points  (4 children)

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              I'm going to steal that line, thanks.

              [–]Lantisca 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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              I am too. Jesus, that was a good line.

              [–]Lj27 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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              To be fair, it's only "half your shit" if she contributed absolutely nothing during your relationship. And if that's the case, then you deserve to get stomped on.

              [–]Overkillengine 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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              Yes and no. If you were a controlling ass and did not allow her to work at all, sure. But if you were marrying her in a good faith agreement that you would handle the providing while she willingly handled the housewifing, but she just decided to renege on that out of malice/greed/feelz, no. At least not in the sense that you did anything wrong other than trust a potential scorpion and gave it a ride across the river.

              [–]panzergling 12 points13 points  (1 child)

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              Akin to going to war with nerf weapons knowing that you will either die fighting in this war or go home empty-handed, half the man you once were, still have to pay taxes despite giving your humanity to your military and having to cope with the depression of that without any true support from most of society or the government you fought for.

              ...so basically it's exactly like going to war...

              (for America, at least)

              [–]iamdropc 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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              Wow. Nice. I really needed this. Married game is pretty hard. I didn't find the red pill until I'd been married 4 years. MMSL is awesome and works wonders. I need nuke-nuggets like this to supplement. Thanks for this!

              [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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              [deleted]

                [–]∞ Red Pill VisionaryRollo-Tomassi 9 points10 points  (0 children)

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                "You only want me for sex" is a filibuster for a woman who has no desire to fuck you.

                http://therationalmale.com/2012/06/27/filibuster/

                Think about that logic for moment: "you only want me for sex" is ludicrous coming from a woman who's implicitly and deliberately making a man wait for that sex.

                85%+ of men are Betas who want nothing more than a secure, committed long term relationship with regular sex.

                The 15% or so Alpha men a woman would eagerly fuck given the opportunity are never asked to wait for sex, and neither is there any reservations about them only wanting her for sex – sex IS the point with him.

                http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/04/taking-things-slow/

                This is how important sex is. People tend to think of love as coming in different varieties and colors – platonic, fraternal, familial, erotic, agape, etc. All of this is nonsense. Love is love, it’s how it’s expressed that’s different. I love my Mom, my brother, my best friend and my daughter, but I only fuck my wife – that’s what makes us husband and wife, not brother and sister. Sex can be an expression of love or it can be an act of recreation, but it is always a prerequisite for an intersexual relationship. It’s time we all stopped deemphasizing the importance of sex and accept it for what it is. Every time we think we’re taking some moral high-road by saying it’s superficial or shallow to place such importance on sex, we only do a disservice to ourselves and our lovers. We’re only screwing ourselves by thinking that we’re in some way above sexuality in some lame self-delusion that in stating so will make us more desirable and set us apart from the rest of the herd (who are also claiming to be above sex anyway). It IS that important, so start giving it the respect it deserves. You do yourself no favors by desexualizing yourself.

                [–]insickness 16 points17 points  (11 children)

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                The problem here isn't that she's accusing you of wanting her just for sex, the problem is that she doesn't want to have sex with you. "You only want me for sex" is just an excuse. If that stops working she'll come up with another excuse. She's not in the mood or she has a headache or she just doesn't feel sexual and needs to see a doctor, etc.

                Your wife should want to fuck you. If she doesn't, all this verbal repartee means nothing. You could pass her shit test with flying colors, and you would still fail in the big picture because she simply doesn't want to fuck you.

                The good news is, as a man, you can change this simply by your behavior. You can be more dominant, more aloof, more sexual, more hard-to-get and keep her on edge. In short, you can be more red pill. At some point in your relationship with her she did want to fuck you, so getting back to that is not impossible.

                I would check out Married Man Sex Life. They have some pretty good tips for how to go about doing this.

                [–]53Pirate 7 points8 points  (6 children)

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                Agreed.

                You shouldn't have to "seduce" your wife in order to get some duty sex. I've been reading a bit on MMSL forum (Athol & Jennifer Kay) and this is where I think I disagree with the info they put out (no, I haven't read their book)

                I've come to conclusion that men need to be the man they want to be .... and if being that man doesn't, in and of itself, make her panties wet - then maybe it's time for the man to move on.

                (and vice-versa as for women - if she is being the woman she wants to be and if that woman doesn't make your dick hard, she needs to move on)

                As someone said previously on this thread "Obligation sex is the worst."

                [–]subcover 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                I agree that MMSL is too nice to women. I disagree that you should not expect duty sex.

                She married you. She sleeps with you. WTF does she expect? Well, you define her expectations to a large degree. You are the man. If you're not doing that for her, you've fallen off the bicycle, but then just get back on the bicycle and ride it again. Once she sees you are leading, she is highly likely to follow (perhaps with some LMR bitching).

                If it starts as duty sex for her, her attraction will probably return. Oxytocin for the win. But she should have the sex and not put you back as if you were strangers, you can expect and assume more.

                [–]HamHungry 2 points3 points  (4 children)

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                So she should just love you for who you are and you shouldn't have to put any effort in? That sounds familiar, but I don't think it belongs here.

                [–]subcover 2 points3 points  (2 children)

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                I do.

                And you should love her for who she is.

                RP is really about understanding who she really is.

                [–]iSpccn 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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                So many people rag on TRP for being a misogynistic dude farm. That's really, to me, far from the truth.

                RP is simply trying to even out the playing field, and make sure women know that just because they're pretty, and have T&A, that they don't control the relationship between man and woman.

                [–]iggybdawg 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                It's hard to play a game when you don't know what the rules are. It's even harder when you don't even know you are playing a game.

                [–]53Pirate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                I think you missed my point 'HamHungry' - not really what I said. About my putting "effort" in, I mean. But yes, she should love me for who I am ... and if she doesn't then I need to change or we need to split.

                I want my wife to want to fuck me like I was the plumber or a guy she met in a bar on girls night out (not that my wife is fucking the plumber or goes to any girls nights out) I don't want her to fuck me simply because I'm her husband and asked her to. I'd rather do without.

                Unlike some others (and I truly feel for them) mine has never refused me (well, once) - she has however performed "duty sex" and I've long since lost interest in that. If I'm not making her panties wet as a man, I don't want her to fuck me out of obligation ... same, same, I expect her to be a woman who makes my dick hard and who I want to fuck, not just 'cause she's my wife and available.

                [–]Screenp2 1 point2 points  (3 children)

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                Don't bother with Marrried man any more.. I was there 2 years ago when the man was strong, then Athol sold out to the feelz and women because they are the ones who spend the money on self improvement.

                Since then he has tried very hard to separate himself from the manosphere.

                [–]insickness 1 point2 points  (2 children)

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                Really? That's a shame. I haven't read too much of his stuff but the stuff I read I did like. He seemed on point to me. I was reading it to help a friend of mine who was going through a divorce and was reluctant to swallow the red pill.

                [–]Screenp2 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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                I still flip through my copy of the original book and it's on our group reading list. It's when he published the updated version, the watered down mindful attraction to appease the wives, and older post wall fems, who were showing up in droves that were being offended by the men on the forums. suddenly it wasn't as guy friendly and we were being told to respect the feelz of the incoming women. Then guys started being banned for telling it like it is, for truth, guys who were there from the beginning, guys who had thousands of posts and helped countless men go from whiny beta hubby to being laid like tile. If you didn't get on the feelz wagon and play nice, then you're not welcome here was the tone. That was my cue to leave.

                The last time i read the forums it was cringing so i did myself a favor and added the site to my forbidden list.

                *edit.. spelling

                [–]insickness 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                Wow, that's sad. But I could see it happening exactly like you told it. It's almost impossible to cater to both women and men at the same time when it comes to relationship advice. Any useful advice you could give men will not be of the 'play-nice' variety most women want to hear. Most of it is kinda the opposite: don't play nice.

                [–]CharlesAnonymousVII 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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                "You only want me for sex!"

                "Well... yeah."

                Say it as if she's only stating the obvious, repeating a perfectly acceptable, mutually understood truism.

                In other words: Agree & Amplify. Since she might assume you're taking her seriously (as you always did before), you may want to betray your sarcasm with a sly, crooked smile. Otherwise, maintain a straight face until you get some reaction out of her. Once she knows you're teasing, if she doesn't play along (say, with faux-indignation and a playful smack on the shoulder, or a kinky embrace of her new role as your sex toy), tell her to lighten up. Never give in and dignify the pseudo-accusation with a sincere rebuttal.

                [–]BluepillProfessor 20 points21 points  (6 children)

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                You are in a battle for your life my brother and I wish you well and good karma. The problem is a rebellious wife usually cannot be reasoned with logic or talked down with smooth words. In most cases she can only be defeated, or divorced. A 3rd alternative that I was able to pull off (for now anyway) and which you may want to consider is negotiating her voluntary surrender. Like me you are something of a wordsmith (inside baseball right there) so I understand how your verbal logic helps you maintain frame in the face of your wife's irrational arguments. I think you could also use it to negotiate a voluntary surrender although I had the whole devout Christian thing on my side as well.

                I have been following your exceptional posts for a while and IMHO it is time for the hard Dread. You know what you have to do in that regard.

                On the surrender negotiations, I did not really argue, I basically laid out an ultimatum after building up a fair amount of dread and ultimately told my wife: "Fuck me, or fuck you. I am not going to put up with your denial games any longer."

                Also, have you tried forgetting about getting verbal consent and just going for a straight seduction? Instigate....Kino...Isolate....escalate while assuming the close and ignoring what she says- focusing on what she does? Just take control, grab your wife and fuck her. Don't ask. Obviously if she protests and starts saying 'no' treat it like a ONS LMR- de-escalate and switch to comfort then re-escalate. Rinse, repeat, and most important hold frame and OI. If she gives you a hard "no" then freeze her out as Mystery suggests. Withdraw yourself emotionally and intellectually and your unnecessary attention until she is willingly compliant. Again, Best of luck.

                [–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 14 points15 points  (1 child)

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                Kino...Isolate....escalate while assuming the close and ignoring what she says- focusing on what she does? Just take control, grab your wife and fuck her. Don't ask. Obviously if she protests and starts saying 'no' treat it like a ONS LMR- de-escalate and switch to comfort then re-escalate. Rinse, repeat, and most important hold frame and OI.

                This is exactly what I did. My sons were floundering in relationships so I started researching Game. Lo and behold it worked WONDERS on my wife and rejuvenated our stale sex life.

                Like you said, rekindle verbal and physical game as if you were seducing someone you just met. Whisper some fantasy shit in her ear, "I know we just met at the grocery store, but I took one look at your hips/face/smile and knew I had to have you..."

                Then push her onto the bed, yank off her clothes, and fuck her like a crazed animal.

                [–]Upvote Me!trpbot[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Confirmed: 1 point awarded to /u/BluepillProfessor by RedPillDad. [History]

                [This is an Automated Message]

                [–]subcover 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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                Yes, definitely go for the game approach. Verbal involving requests is wrong. Assume the sale. If she gets angry (mine did) either persist or back off, having moved the ball forward.

                The good thing about marriage is that there is a next time. To stop that she'd have to disrupt everyone's life. (And while she might not mind disrupting yours, she probably has some concern about the kids, and she does not want to disrupt her reputation with friends etc. Use it.) Sex is an expectation in marriage. Don't discuss this with her, assume it and go from there. She'll get angry once, maybe twice, then go along. You don't have to get her into bed. You start in bed! If she's got you sleeping in another room or something, just reappear in your bedroom and get into the bed. Short of a judge's restraining order, I don't see what can stop this.

                And it will improve everything in the relationship for the same reason winning with a woman always does. If you take Vagina Mound, you control the battlefield. Notwithstanding the yips and protests of her nasty side, which is saying "I am angry because this guy's become a beta and I'm supposed to have control of him." Long marriage will sometimes turn you into a beta. So then battle back and regain the high ground.

                tldr: marriage is the world's longest most intense shit test. Don't give the crap any more respect than that. Get what you want out of the marriage.

                [–]KasperskyEmployee 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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                Could you explain a little more exactly what you mean by: Instigate....Kino...Isolate....escalate?

                This stuff is gold.

                Edit:a word

                [–]BluepillProfessor 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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                Sure! This is basic PUA.

                First step in a pickup is to be Mr. Comfort. Make her feel comfortable around you enough to continue the conversation. Light hearted, funny, interesting etc.

                Second, Instigate: Start in, LIGHTLY at first, with sexual innuendos and double entendres- the English language makes it easy. You can do this via chat and text also. Just make yourself a sexual being, make your intentions known verbally- but indirectly- and start the first hint of the tingles in your target. Example: "I had a GF who kind of reminds me of you. She had this thing she did but...no, you wouldn't be interested in that" or (in a LTR) I texted my wife yesterday asking her when she would be home. She responded with a time and "why?" I responded: "Cuz when I don't see you it gets hard." Playful flirting and sexual banter are the order of the day at this stage. Don't overdue it. Be indirect and watch her closely. If she responds then escalate. If she does not keep it light and friendly, but firm. Watch for shit tests, slut defenses, and last minute defenses.

                Third: Kino. TOUCH her- NOT in a blatantly sexual way. No grabbing and twisting nipples. A LIGHT touch on the bare upper arm/neck or back of the hand is often very effective. Continue conversation.

                Fourth: Isolate- think of a serial killer trying to get his victim alone so he can have his way with her. Change of venue to a more private restaurant or even a private table in the back is effective isolation. Get her away from the cock blocks and distractions. This is a pretty easy stage when you are married (even with several little cockblocks running around you can always put them in front of the TV and lock your Bedroom door).

                Fourth, escalate. The kiss is most obvious but building up to that is critical. Escalate the kino first. Move your hand from her upper arm to her neck. Slide it under her spaghetti straps and very gently slide a finger up her neck. If she responds you can escalate very quickly. If she is tense and pulls away back off but only slightly. For example remove your hand from her neck but slide it back down to her arm. It is really just like the kiss- you start out slow and gentle, not by shoving your tongue down her throat.

                [–]KasperskyEmployee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Thanks this was very helpful have some goldyness.

                P.s You have taken my gold virginity ;).

                [–]Dreamtrain 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                I can almost predict the r/relationship sub's opinion on this matter:

                "You should respect that she doesn't wants sex"
                "You're a loser for rejecting her when she finally took the big leap to accept sex"
                "You're not respecting her boundaries"

                I think sexual satisfaction is the biggest indicator of a relationship's health. Even in cases when both individuals have low sex drive and pursue a common goal together that keeps them busy. I hope to marry in the future because I want kids eventually, and pre-RP I was terrified of ending up with a wife that overnight would just up and decide she only wants sex once every other month, or go cheat. Even back then I suspected that always being there emotionally, being the kind of guy that is willing to move mountains for his significant other and provide her with every whim wasn't gonna be a factor. People around me will tell that communication is key, and while I agree it's important I really doubt communication is a solve-all for relationships, you can't talk a person into feeling/wanting something they initially don't, unless you're manipulating them or tampering with them psychologically which I don't really want, I really doubt anyone's wife started to bang her husband's brains out like she was going down for that bad boy in college after a talk where they each shared what they feel. Isn't it best if they do it on their own? That's where RP comes, no need for guilt trip or supplicate for sex, I agree with OP there, should be natural.

                [–]1johnnight 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                Excellent comedic timing precisely at the last word :)

                [–]kinggluejar 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                Something I don't see talked about much here that needs to be incorporated more in relationships is that, alternatively, you can learn to seduce her. It's super easy if you know her kinks. I don't know what it's like when you're married but I've found that seduction works wonders for me with my gf and this relationship has been going on since 2010.

                [–]i3unneh 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                "What's that beeping?"

                Ah yes, Pavlov's conditioning for sex, genius!

                [–]Kaelteth 4 points5 points  (1 child)

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                The last time I got a "You only want me for sex", I replied with "You only want me for money".

                Its sad really...even in marriage, women are whores.

                [–]Yoda7 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Just about everone pays for it. One way or another.

                [–]DrakeSaint 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                "The way you put it sounds like it's an awful thing" and the like are the best comebacks to this.

                [–]53Pirate 1 point2 points  (2 children)

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                I think the first step is instilling in your wife, without ever having to say it out loud, a sense that she can stay or she can go ... and that if she doesn't "want" to be on your personal man-bandwagon than you not only don't give a fuck if she goes, you'd rather she did if she's not happy to be there. Finances and kids be damned.

                (This is assuming, of course, you've done the things you need to do to make your personal man-bandwagon a place a number of women, including her, would want to ride.)

                However, as long as you DO give a fuck whether she goes ... she will continue to attempt to manipulate in order to beta-size you.

                And yes, marriage IS (among other things, some good) one big long shit-test. It's what women do. Soon as you absorb that idea and learn to ignore and laugh at the shit-tests and refuse to respond to them, the less frequent they'll become.

                That's just my thinking on the subject ... I understand others may differ.

                [–]MisterMagorium 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Man-bandwagon...interesting....never heard that term before.

                [–]subcover 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                I liked the "it's what women do", it's true. It's what they do to each other, to you, to anyone they feel the power to do it to.

                [–]NotMeUsee 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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                I dont get the phone beeping part

                [–]17 Endorsed ContributorArchwinger[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                Back then, my wife would bitch at me about something trivial. Right around that time was when I figured out the power of caring less and being dismissive and sometimes humorous, rather than defensive and supplicating.

                I'd retort, and she would storm off in a huff, figuring that being angry and silent would somehow punish me. Rather than attempt to placate her, I started enjoying the peace and quiet and ignoring her display. Within 2 days, she was the one trying to salvage things via sex.

                I didn't really do it every time we argued, just a few times, the first by accident, but you could literally set an alarm on my phone for tomorrow night, because like clockwork, we'd be fucking then, and the phone alarm I set two days ago would go off.

                [–]Puc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                I don't understand why reddit is that negative about TRP, this post is golden!

                [–]VarsitySlutTeamCpt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                Thanks for this, for having a different perspective when someone tries to shame and guilt me onto only having sex with them. I hope your marrage ends up better.

                [–]testmypatience 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                ... Just tell her to go get naked because you are going to have sex. Don't ask. If she says anything, just don't respond. Do not give value to bullshit. If she continues, say you will go find someone else to have sex with and then leave, get in your car, and do whatever the fuck you want.

                I'm not sure if OP still is with said wife or is talking about an ex wife. My fiancee was told early on that if she ever decides to play games I am going to find someone else to fuck and she will be instantly kicked out. My life, not wasting it.

                [–]19 Endorsed Contributordrrrrrr 1 point2 points  (2 children)

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                This is why the RP tenement of "men are the gatekeepers of commitment, women are the gatekeepers of sex" is true, but not the ideal mentality for you to have. I gatekeep both. You want your GF trying to get sex out of you - you want to lead sexual interactions, yes, but you also want to let her feel the power of No. Make her earn sex with you, treat a rough fucking just the way she likes as a reward for going to the gym with you or cooking or just taking extra care one night to look sexy as fuck.

                Women love feeling that you are turned on by her, but even more focused on your mission in life and ambitions that you will turn her down. Gatekeep that shit - it's similar to being the selector when you go out to a club.

                Your situation seems pretty bad man. I'm sure it's on the up and up with using TRP to improve yourself, but at some point, once a woman has glimpsed deep into the beta abyss, the abyss looks into her. She's never going to see you as a bedroom gangster - well maybe a nuclear sized dread game situation or if you majorly change your lifestyle, essentially becoming a 'new man' to her. You know your situation better than I do, but we see plenty of examples on r/relationships where the guy is always saying "I kept thinking she'd be more sweet and have sex when we had more time, when I hired househelp, when the kids graduated, when I became the CEO, when I... you see the point. You don't want to be stuck assuming she will be a different woman once you become this new, improved dude. TRP changes you, it doesn't change the male or female BPers around you.

                [–]subcover 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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                Heh yes I just saw a post like that on /r/relationships yesterday I think. Today I got kicked off there.

                I've been able to post any kind of relationship advice there, I come from a redpill perspective and do not have different views there from here. What good am I to them if I am not honest?

                But I have gotten kicked off twice. The reasons: (1) I was anti-abortion in some situation.

                (2) I was not all sympathetic to a black girl whose white boyfriend expressed skepticism about affirmative action, and she got all shocked about it. (But didn't want to break up with him, and repeatedly told people that! Insulting a girl doesn't drive her away.)

                And none of my posts in that thread were even heavily downvoted, the lowest I had was 0 points and I had one up to 3 points.

                So I've only gotten kicked off there for political positions. But if all the advice there comes from pro-choice pro-affirmative-action people, it's not gonna be very redpill even if they say they don't kick people off for being redpill.

                [–]19 Endorsed Contributordrrrrrr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Yeah that doesn't even have to do with RP. People are just moronic in any female-based subreddit because the mods always only care about controlling the boundaries of acceptable opinions. For example, some solid % of women are anti-abortion or at least not full out pro choice, possibly a solid 40% or so, but on twoX, the dominant female subreddit at the moment, what does an anti-abortion lean get you? Shadowban.

                [–]isolos 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                Mandatory plug for /r/marriedredpill. I've tried to advertise this sub a few weeks ago but the bot really doesn't like linking to other subreddits so here it is.

                [–]Bukkaking 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                Yea that's real smart, make her feel sexually worthless so she can go fuck some other dude behind your back and bring up her value while getting back at you. When she resigned to the idea of submitting to sex with you, you should have gave it to her real good and rough and let her know who is boss, THAT is what would have made her see you as a man and not the pouty boy that you make yourself seem like.

                [–]Sturmgeist781 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                • Random Airhead: "You only want me for sex!"
                • Sturmgeist: "Well, what else ya got?"

                Another classic thread from Archwinger.

                [–]subcover 0 points1 point  (2 children)

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                I am a highly educated guy, but the most use I've gotten out of that is to identify her lies and inconsistencies. For years I refuted them one after another. My kids learned she's a big liar by hearing me refute these lies all the time. For years I tried to be discreet about it and not embarrass her in front of the kids. Then I realized it was just making it harder on me while allowing the kids to be confused, so I did it openly and clearly. How can kids grow up RedPill without access to the real information, if they think Dad is weak because he doesn't defend the truth in front of them?

                But having established that, and being worn out having to win constant stupid arguments, I gave up and basically ignore what she says. Works much better. Physical escalation in bed is a superior replacement for all the verbal skills in the world.

                And I am highly verbally competent and educated, but it's not the best tool. One uses verbal game to get into bed. In a marriage you visit her in bed every night with no verbal crap required. And once in bed, verbal game isn't what you use, at least it isn't what I use.

                OP's post is funny because he's verbally escalating. "You only want me for sex!" "Yes I do want you for sex." said unapologetically. And having set the expectation, he gets it.

                [–]53Pirate 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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                Or as Vladimir Putin recently said "It's better not to argue with women."

                [–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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                Just to be clear here, verbal game isn't arguing or logic. It's teasing, agree and escalate, and fun shit.

                [–]galaxy_man33 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/sex-and-control-how-men-get-screwed-by-emotionally-abusive-women/

                so is this essentially TBP way of expaining the "no sex for you tonight" phenomenon?

                [–]Tonynoce 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Last time my GF was so drunk that she was saying that phrase for the 1st time, I was a bit drunk too, so I answered in a cold manner and explaining to her that this was false.

                Then we have a dirty sex were I spit on her face and she liked it.

                [–]tedted8888 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Sorry you swallowed the red pill after marriage. Where there signs that she was controlling when you were dating? I wish you the best with your wife and daughter, but I would have nexted her when we were datting. Hopefully you can continue to read more redpill and reignite the passion that you and your wife had when you were dating, and have a successful marriage.

                [–]1PaulRivers10 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                I think you did a great breakdown of what's happening. It took a lot of us a while to realize this was it.

                When a beta husband asks his wife for sex, however innocent the request, what the woman hears is two things: 1) “I am a loser, unworthy of sex;” and 2) “You are sexually failing me.”

                One minor quibble in the wording, whether you can verbally say it depends on the girl. I've had girlfriends who just can't handle verbally talking about sex, and others for whom it's a turn on when they're turned on. It seems to have something to do with her background.

                The situation seems to me to be more of asking her for sex that she isn't already wanting. If she's already craving it, asking for it is a turn on for most (but not all) women I've dated. If she's not really emotionally craving it yet, that's the situation you're describing.

                Asking her why is like asking a guy why he doesn't feel like eating spagetti today. There's a chance there's a clear reason he knows (food poisoning last time, ate spagetti earlier today, etc) but odds are he doesn't really know more than "I just don't feel like it".

                TheRedPill and Game try to describe what would make her want to have sex more to begin with. What would make you more attractive to her, what would increase her emotional desire towards you. Some of it is doing things like dressing better, being in better shape, and preselection (when you go places and other women find you attractive, she tends to feel that you're more attractive). Some of it is handling her when she's either testing you, or doing stupid things.

                And I've seen a lot of girls follow the pattern of getting into a relationship, then working to kill the attraction themselves - whether it's a test, or them being stupid without realizing it, there's a reason why it's a common stereotype that women get into a relationship with a man, change him, then lose all attraction for him if they're successful in changing him into what they think they want.

                [–]Wintamint 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                "You only want me for sex!" Best beta response? "Well, I'd settle for a BJ."

                [–]blue_27 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                It's not the only thing, but it's on a very short list.

                [–]csmass 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                I had an ex that was like this. I always got her into a huge emotional argument where I was super dominant, and afterwards she'd be all over me like there was no tomorrow. She loved makeup sex. lol.

                [–]madhax0r 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                That's not true. We want you to clean up the house and make us food as well.

                [–]PlebDestroyer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Never rethought I'd see the say dudes have problems laying their wives... She's probably cheating. Sloots gonna sloot mane.

                [–]dallz_beep 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                I just don't understand all these married men. They go for months, years even, without any pussy. How do they do it? Are they cheating on their wives? Do they jack off all day? It just doesn't make sense to me. You'd think there would be a lot more spousal violence/"rape" coming from all this frustration. Beta men are incredibly well-behaved.

                I suppose if you don't lift and eat like shit your libido suffers, which makes things easier. But still, what a shitty life.

                [–]wavescrashing 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                Indian wives have this habit of saying "I'll give you sex". It's like a dog being thrown a bone.

                [–]Mandeponium 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                “You’re not doing something you should be doing unasked.”

                Not even my male hamster picked up on that until you broke it down.

                [–]RobGuy55 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                I have never been married, but why not just take sex from her? My last girlfriend frequently said "no" when I started working her for sex. That didn't stop me. I got top of her, made out with her more, grinded on her vagina more, and kept playing with it through her shorts. Eventually her clothes were off and we were getting it on. When we first started dating, we were doing this routine and I said "okay, no sex" and laid down on the other side of the bed. Right when I did that she started taking taking off her jeans. I think she liked the game. Getting your SO all hot and bothered and taking sex from her is alpha. Asking your SO for sex is beta.

                [–]1KyfhoMyoba 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I must confess, when I read of your anger and subsequent rejection of her when your wife reluctantly offered sacrificial sex, I got a bit of a semi.

                [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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                [deleted]

                  [–]le_king_falcon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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                  She still thinks she can play the vagina card to bring you back into line.

                  People never like it when someone they have lorded over gains a backbone. So they'll just try and crank up the control mechanisms.

                  [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

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                  " Men aren’t supposed to ask for sex. Ever. They’re supposed to just be attractive so that women want to have sex with them,"

                  This couldn't be more wrong.

                  Simply put, i've bagged more women by 20 than most do in a lifetime.

                  I texted 5 different girls today saying " hey sexy come let me fingerbang you in the sunshine"

                  The point is, you need to come from an angle of detatched reverence, as i call it. When im hanging out with a girl, ill say, why are we not fucking, or can we just fuck already?

                  Your wife owes you sex, hell I had a girlfriend for 2 years and we went at it 2 times a day for the most part the entire time.

                  Your wife is your wife. Go facefuck the shit out of her. If you don't like it, divorce her. I can't fathom how you go to a point in your marriage where your wife refuses sex, but i pray for you to grow the balls to put that women in her place.

                  [–]subcover 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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                  Married man, upvoting this even though he bitches about married men who've gone places he has never gone in his life, relationship wise.

                  Because I like his attitude.