all 91 comments

[–]bongwaterblack 147 points148 points  (7 children)

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Imagine the drunk Captain of that ship trying to wrestle back control from his First Mate. He can demand respect and stomp around and talk about how many other ships he could have been the Captain of, but if the First Mate still thinks his incompetence is going to kill the crew, the Captain is more likely to get thrown overboard than regain control of the ship.

Outstanding metaphor.

[–]redbluerage 28 points29 points  (2 children)

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100% this.

I am the drunk captain. Excellent description, and my situation down to a T

[–]DanG3 16 points17 points  (1 child)

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Don't EVER say that to your wife - even to gain her "understanding."

[–]BluepillProfessor 18 points19 points  (5 children)

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Yes this is exactly gold. The way to take charge is NOT with immediate blustering and commands. You must assume command SLOWLY and combine your campaign with a hard-core, impressive self improvement regimen. You must lift weights, learn to do and get better at manly things. Learn pickup artistry and seduction and use it on your wife. You must take over at home bit by bit. Start planning some activities. Nothing elaborate at first- start by picking the restaurants the family eats and slowly expand your power sphere. Take over household tasks and start impressing yourself (and her) that you are really taking care of business. As the captain you can ONLY give positive energy to your wife (assuming she is behaving as a good XO). It is hard.

As OP says, your XO (I like Executive Officer over First Officer) is pissed off that she had to be the Captain for so long. She was probably pulling double duty for years and then you show up one day and decide you are going to be Captain after all. In the first place why would she believe it? If she does does she is thinking, well fuck you to hell, it is about time. This has to be handled very, very delicately or it will not go over well.

In my case I was always a natural, blustering, overconfident Alpha but like so many others I was Beta'd by marriage and even worse, my Alpha-ness got me in some trouble and some really bad shit went down. I was defeated, rock bottom, literally crying every day for years and years. My XO viewed me with withering contempt and believe me that did not help the r/deadbedroom. My business collapsed due to my depression and I went back to school to get a PhD and become a professor. This went on for several years while I was back in school, pursuing a PhD and that elusive second career.

Then I discovered The Red Pill and it was a several months long process to begin taking control again- EVEN when I was previously in control at the beginning. She still does 50% of everything and makes most of the money (business lawyer vs. professor, you do the math) but me "stepping up" and retaking the Captain's chair has turned on my XO's juices like I could only have imagined.

Anyway, I talk a lot and my wife knew all about the Red Pill and the Captain/FO arrangement. She actually read MMSL and the MAP "in order to figure out my strategy." We talked about it in the abstract as the appropriate model for a husband and wife interacting- Captain Picard and Commander Riker. It didn't hurt that we have seen every episode of Star Trek TNG so she understood exactly the relationship.

It also didn't hurt that we are Christians. Paul's much maligned instructions on 'submission' combined with Proverbs 31 (the characteristics of a virtuous woman) make this clear while the Song of Solomon (which glorifies sexuality and love) has the cure for frigidity. One day while I was digesting the pill I just told my wife how sorry I was that the Captain had been in his ready room, but he is back now, and I am trusting you to help me.

[–]DanG3 6 points7 points  (3 children)

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Excellent! I would caution, however, that most men not discuss TRP or what they are about with their SO, XO, etc. It is risky and nearly impossible to reverse if it goes badly - much like a fisherman discussing net design with a fish. It only works if the fish wants to be caught. BPP is an exception and, yes, being practicing Christians was probably a factor with his success, especially in being able to have conversations about RP with his XO. Scripture is a lot more Red Pill than most people realize.

[–]BluepillProfessor 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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it only works if the fish WANTS to be caught

I endorse this 100%. Be warned by the time you find TRP your wife is in another place and may very well NOT want to be caught by you. So talking to your SO/XO about your plans is Beta and feminine. Women talk. Men do. Don't spout off and start making demands. SHOW her that you are taking care of business and that you are cool, collected and in charge.

[–]nomdplume 2 points3 points  (1 child)

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I think that often, a wife does want to be caught. If both people were in a healthy frame of mind when they married, chances are there was a solid mix of Alpha and Beta qualities, and she loved that man with that mix. Unless she's already mentally/emotionally given up and packed her bags, chances are she would take that man again in a heartbeat, just like she did the first time.

If he lost his Alpha along the way, chances are he's as disappointed as she is, and if she still believes that he is a good fisherman who just lost his way (and yes, women can continue loving a man when he's down, up to a point), she'll do what she can to support him getting back in the fucking boat and catching her. She loved being caught by him once - she would probably love to have it happen again.

[–]DanG3 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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My wife is loving being caught again. In fact, I occasionally "throw her back" to catch her again. Just for the heck of it I've tried using different nets. She seems to prefer the original - which happens to be my being a cocky asshole and talking about "the girls" (both real and fictional) who like me. (NOT a recommended tactic, BTW.) The guys in our social group can't believe I get away with this shit AND that she actually BRAGS about my stories with "The Girls."

[–]heeb 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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Thank you. Your story sound eerily similar to mine. The Captain Picard and Commander Riker thing is indeed an excellent example: mutual respect that is earned, never demanded. Excellent. Good luck with the rest of your journey!

[–]1 Endorsed Contributormordanus 44 points45 points  (16 children)

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This is a great post and I try to point this out all the time to people. In order for most dread game to work you have to be desired by her or it won't be dread. She has to fear losing you. If you are a fat piece of shit then there will be no dread. If your wife is disgusted by you and you say "If this doesn't change then I'm leaving" she has no motivation to want to make you stay. You have to bring your smv up as high as you can to bring maximum leverage into it.

Another thing that I want to point out is that when you fix your marriage it is going to take a while. She has become accustomed to you are her little beta pet/toy and when you start trying to assert yourself it is going to cause waves. Take this step by step and be patient. You're the one that got yourself into this mess. You can't just click a magic button and have it fixed.

If you have been beta in your ltr then you need to think of it like climbing out of a hole that you've dug. It is going to take longer depending on how deep the hole was. You have to prove to her that you are worth respecting. You don't get to just demand it of her.

Her trust has to be gained incrementally. It's kind of like breaking a horse.

http://www.wikihow.com/Break-a-Horse

You have to move slow to gain her trust. She has to know that if she submits to you that she is going to be ok and to be honest most men don't project that kind of confidence. Take it slow step by step and maintain your frame in order to gain that trust. To me this is when women become worth the effort. When they know that they can trust you and they willingly submit to you because you have earned it. Not because you argued them into it or demanded it and threw a fit like a child.

[–]Sniperchild 6 points7 points  (15 children)

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The dread game just sounds like emotional blackmail ...what am I missing?

[–]Cosmicandy 35 points36 points  (4 children)

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You must be new here.

Look I get it, it sounds like a shitty or asshole thing to do at first but I want you to consider which is more shitty.

1) Not being congruent and genuine about what you want out of a relationship with a woman and being silently resentful of her when things become different. 2) Being congruent and genuine about what you want out of a relationship with a woman, and leaving if she cannot be that person.

Were not being controlling, we are giving every opportunity for women to leave us if they truly desire. Nobody here advocates tying women down in a basement. Dread game is basically letting a woman know that the current relationship dynamic is unacceptable and if things don't change, you will ACTUALLY leave. That is the end game of every unsuccessful application of Dread game for me personally.

Pursuing what you desire, and being willing to walk away if you don't get it isn't an asshole thing to do. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[–]Sniperchild 7 points8 points  (3 children)

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I am new here. Thank you for your reply

[–]fuckpasswordrecovery 9 points10 points  (1 child)

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Hello! Stay a while, and listen!

[–]annul 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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holy shit, back from the dead, mr. cain?

[–]heeb 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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Welcome! Indeed, stick around. There is truth in TRP.

[–]1mcdehuevo 11 points12 points  (1 child)

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I have my own qualms about this one, to be honest. It's a gray area for sure. But think of it in terms of two things: 1) preselection, and 2) familiarity breeds contempt. Each of these applies to both sexes to one degree or another, but much more so to women.

We all know preselection means her knowing that other women desire you makes you more desirable to her. Knowing this intellectually and being smacked in the face with it are two very different things. So it's easy to see why dread game is effective in the abstract. The question, of course, is whether that smack crosses the line from "reminder" to "abuse".

That's where familiarity comes in. Even if she is already attracted to you, she doesn't necessarily have the same in-your-face reminders of that fact on a daily basis; you do. You see her, you look at her face, her tits, her ass, whatever, and you want to fuck her. You know you're attracted to that. Hers is more complicated, and I think can much more easily get lost in the day to day grind of life. She may acknowledge that you provide, protect, etc, but once that gets taken for granted, it loses a lot of its power. Dread game removes the "taken for granted" aspect and reminds her that she has something other women value.

Again, I understand the misgivings, and you have to be very careful not to overuse it. If you're doing it to turn her into a puppet, then you're an abuser; if you're doing it to remind her that you're the one in charge and you know your own value so you're not going to take her shit, then you're just a captain who recognizes the need for both the carrot and the stick.

[–]RPModulator 4 points5 points  (1 child)

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Please, no one downvote this guy, as he seems to be asking a genuine question.

So, for a long time, I was a bit torn when it came to threatening people, be it explicitly or implicitly. However, we all know that the "have an open, honest conversation with your LTR" bullshit does not work. So, if you aren't going to threaten/"emotional blackmail"/whatever, what's left? Well, you could just walk away, without even bothering trying to fix the situation. Certainly, sometimes, this is probably the better solution. But, if that's not the case, then I would say the following: as long as you are actually willing to next her anyway, you may as well try to salvage the situation, and dread is one of the tools that can help.

One other note, regarding the use of the word "blackmail": I think it generally refers to getting someone to do what they otherwise don't want to. In many of the cases of screwed up LTRs, women don't really want to be the Captain anyway, and what you are trying to get them to do (i.e., to go back to the First Mate position) will typically make them much, much happier. So I think blackmail is way too strong a word for this; it's maybe better referred to as a nominal inducement, or whatever, to do something that they will be much happier with.

[–]j0hnan0n 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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I look at it (and explicitly present it) like this: I'm looking for the best possible mate, someone who's hot, can please me in many ways, and with whom I enjoy spending time with. If I find a better woman than the girl I'm with, she should know that I might very well leave her for the better woman.

At the same time, I recognize that if she finds a better man (I don't personally believe she will, but I'm always improving myself and my skills and capabilities) then I shouldn't expect anything OTHER than her leaving me for the better man.

It's up to me to make sure I'm the apex of masculinity in order to satisfy and keep her around. It's up to her to make sure she's the apex of femininity in order to satisfy me and keep me around. There's no double standard. There's no blackmail. It's equal trade to equal benefit. What you're missing is that we (TRPers) can sometimes have the upper hand because we recognize the dynamics at play and can use them to our benefit. But females usually have an intuitive grasp of dread game; they know how to leverage their availability and sexuality to maximize their benefit.

[–]1 Endorsed Contributormordanus 6 points7 points  (3 children)

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You're welcome to think that if you want but then I can list almost everything in a relationship as emotional blackmail too. Withholding sex from your partner because you don't feel appreciated is blackmailing your partner until he gives into your demands. Demanding they share the chores or else or making your partner get a job or else. Those things are not a bad thing and most would agree that people need to do those things, but by the strict definition they are emotional blackmail.

So when you have a blanket statement about something that only paints it as a negative it isn't looking at it in a realistic way. Phrases like emotional blackmail are pretty useless to be honest.

[–]j0hnan0n -1 points0 points  (2 children)

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So...you say the phrase 'emotional blackmail' is useless....after you've said that you can interpret anything as blackmail? Looks like inconsistency to me.

Witholding sex for any reason isn't blackmail, whether done by male or female. Demanding the sharing of chores can be a bad thing, if one party is at work all day and the other is home with the kids (or pets, or neither)

I'm willing to agree with you that blanket statements always have exceptions and usually don't apply to the majority, much less the entirety. But you're ignoring what's already been said about what's blackmail (coercion) and what's not.

Your statements are useless to be honest. Blanket statements aren't any more useful, but calling it blackmail doesn't further the discussion.

Bottom line is this: Increase your own SMV as much as possible and make sure it's higher than hers. The point is self improvement and focus on ones' circle of control/influence, rather than on what other people are focused on. No one can argue with that.

[–]1 Endorsed Contributormordanus 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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So...you say the phrase 'emotional blackmail' is useless....after you've said that you can interpret anything as blackmail? Looks like inconsistency to me.

That's the exact reason it is useless. No inconsistency there.

Witholding sex for any reason isn't blackmail, whether done by male or female

Incorrect. Here's a link on what emotional blackmail is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_blackmail

Give that a read and maybe you will understand

[–]ZoonZakal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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HA. I never made the connection between "pity me" or sufferers being an attempt at emotional blackmail.

Currently dating a girl that does this. I have always just basically ignored it. Rare to hear about it from her again. So I guess I've been handling that correct.

Great read. Thanks for that post/link!

[–]BluepillProfessor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is NOT blackmail. You are not actually threatening to leave and cheat (until you get to the hard- hard Dread with an ice queen wife). You are merely reminding her that you COULD cheat- and this turns on the juices like you cannot believe.

Dread is definitely manipulation but so...the...fuck..what? You can manipulate people to do bad things like rob a bank or cheat on their spouse or you can manipulate them to do good things like lay your spouse like tile and have a happy marriage.

Think of Dread as a backdoor hack into the female mind. They are programmed to tingle when "their" cock is desired by other woman. So let her know that 'her' cock is in demand. That is what she really wants- not that she actually wants her husband to 'cheat' but she wants her choice of a man to be validated by other women. All TRP is saying is give her what she wants!

Good sex is a sweaty, anxious, hard pounding, hair pulling affair- NOT a sweet, loving, gentle encounter. You have to create some of that anxiety and even uncertainty to have passion.

[–]__ROOSTER__ 8 points9 points  (0 children)

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You're not going to make anyone dread anything if there is nothing to dread ! What will she dread, that a beta isn't happy ?

I'm in agreement OP. Fix yourself and most everything else fixes itself.

Demanding respect is pitiful. Being respectable is another story.

Be the man worthy of all the things you want and there they will be laid out in front of you.

[–]Endorsed Contributorleftajar 18 points19 points  (1 child)

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IMO, this should be pinned or put in the sidebar. This can prevent a TON of headache for new guys who are already in a relationship.

[–]1wiseclockcounter 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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Agreed. What say you, mods? I mean, if this scenario isn't responsible for at least half of the traffic to r/exredpill, I don't know what is. Seems very necessary.

[–]pupplenupple 7 points8 points  (1 child)

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Absolutely. Years of neglect can not be overcome overnight. You may know that you've stopped messing about and are going forward in life, she has no reason to trust this is not like all the other half-assed attempts you've made over the years.

Alpha and beta are relationship patterns, both of which have advantages and disadvantages for the person who chooses to practice them and the person who is in a relationship with the person being alpha or beta. If you wish to save your relationship, then withdrawing those of the beta type behaviors that are actually to her advantage or introducing alpha type behaviors that are to her disadvantage is not something you should do while your relationship is teetering on the brink. Your balance sheet is close to zero or even in the negative (in which case the relationship is held together only by elements like societal pressure, that the kids are fond of you, and the awkwardness of splitting up) and it is in that condition because you have consistently been acting without regard for the bottom line. You need to get your shit together to make some huge contributions. Lose some damn weight, actually start doing manly things around the house, get out there and impress some people. Give yourself some breathing space so you aren't on the verge of breakup every damn second. Then you can start doing something with the leeway you've made for yourself.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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Years of neglect can not be overcome overnight.

In my experience it takes about one month to properly reverse the damage of every fucked up year.

[–]TRPTosser 13 points14 points  (0 children)

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You know, a lot of what happens on TRP is finger pointing at something else. "Look, women are horrible because they cheat a lot". I think men need a long, serious look at themselves, to see the type of women they're attracting and why.

Men need to have the attitude that if your woman cheats, won't have sex with you, or gets fat then it's your own damn fault, either you chose poorly, or you're not leading well enough. I understand women now, they're not difficult, even the slutty ones. Take control of yourself, THEN look for a woman (if you want).

[–]Darthstacker 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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Excellent article. I agree with cover20 to a certain extent about not needing to fulfill prerequisites etc....but generally speaking these 5 suggestions are a good goal to work towards and just hold frame while she tests the new and improved you.

I'm an older guy (41)and I am speaking from experience having been turned from a pretty high value alpha, to deep into beta territory in just 10 years of nagging from my ex. Y

You have to remember that your SO isn't perfect so she will be intrigued by the new you. Just hold the ship steady and get ready for the storm!

[–]1 Endorsed Contributorvandaalen 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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I do not agree that you will have to fullfill prerequisites before you start your self-upgrade, but you should certainly start with it at the same time you start to claim your status. I like the analogy of the drunk captain a lot though.

The thing is that all the drama is just her being in heavy shit-test mode. You are claiming a higher status than the one you had before (maybe for a loooong time). This causes a cognitive dissonance since you suddenly changed your behaviour and you shouldn't be allowed to behave in the way you do now. So she needs to find out if you are what you claim to be.

Keep in mind that it might turn out that she isn't willing to submit to you. You might have fucked the whole thing up in the very beginning when you chose her as being good material for an LTR.

So also be prepared that you might ultimately have to take an L if things don't work out in your favour. Not every partner and every relationship can be fixed. That is part of it.

[–]aa223 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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If it helps get a puppy that grows into a big dog. It will teach you that either you need to be the dominant one or it will dominate you. Once you can tame a dog you can tame a woman.

[–]colombia40 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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This is something that needs to go into the next red pill book. There should be an entire chapter on what you've pointed out. Every bit of this advice goes hand in hand with improving yourself as a man. Not to mentioning answering the all to often asked question, "How do I get my ex back"

[–]HeadingRed 1 point2 points  (1 child)

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7) Couldn't control your emotions

[–]colombia40 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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Emotional intelligence plays a part in almost every decision. Including that voice that tells you to get your ass in the gym.

Solid

[–]IamAwaken 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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This is really important information and should be required reading for anyone in an ltr.

Every man has a different situation and a lot of dudes are failing rather than falling short. It is also the same as trying to eat you cake. A capable man can do whatever he wants because the value of those capabilities are heavy and important.

This is why equality seems possible. So many men become worthless and weak to the point the women are getting stronger by default.

[–][deleted]  (4 children)

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[deleted]

    [–]reason_is_why 4 points5 points  (3 children)

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    As explained exhaustively in TRP sidebar, women are obligated by nature to provide the best possible combination of genetics and environment for their children, and men are obligated to compete with each other for mating opportunities. So yes, that means doing something else besides taking what you think you deserve.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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    [deleted]

      [–]DanG3 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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      It IS obserdly obvious ... as is an eye-puzzle with a hidden image. As soon as someone points out the hidden image it glares at you and that is all you see. RP (actually the Manosphere) is the "someone" pointing out the hidden image. "It" - RP - is not a "method," it's a clarifier, a filter, an exorcist of propaganda, ...

      It is said that feminism and the feminine matrix are/were the ones obsticating the "hidden" image. That could be true and it is consistent with the female nature - "Here Adam, eat this apple." But, it could also be that it was/is easier for a man to believe (anyone) that he should still be attractive - "loved" - for who/what he is or becomes - no matter what that may be. THAT is/was a lie!

      [–]reason_is_why 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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      It is ridiculously obvious yet here we are. Recovery strategy game aimed at a neglected LTR/marriage is probably a bit different from the plate spinning game utilized by pick up artists.

      [–]1cover20 3 points4 points  (12 children)

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      Not so much. You don't need all those prerequisites. Just assert yourself. The other things are fine, but getting jacked can take years, and you may not be able to make more money, etc. "Be a better man", well that's wonderful but not necessary, any more than being a better man will guarantee anything.

      The dirty little truth is that how you act, how you game your wife, is more important than any of that. OP is basically an argument that you don't deserve to be able to do that without first fulfilling this other checklist of very major requirements. Well fuck that.

      It actually isn't needed. Take the red pill, fake it til you make it, and do be prepared for some choppy waters. Maintain frame. Do not give your wife permission to do bad things. They usually want your consent to cheat, divorce, etc. Be strong and don't give it. Maintain frame.

      OP is basically misguided. Maybe a white knight or female shill, trying to turn this into a lifting forum.

      [–][deleted]  (9 children)

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      [deleted]

        [–]Endorsed Contributorn0c0ntr0l 16 points17 points  (0 children)

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        Yes they go wtf is going on.

        But, YOU HOLD FRAME.

        If you hold your fucking ground when she goes why are you doing this, the process will be quicker.

        In the words of Bill Burr: "So what, she doesn't fuck you for a few days. You rub one out. That's the tug of victory, you've won. She'll come around!

        [–]1cover20 1 point2 points  (6 children)

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        I'm an old married (and still married) guy speaking from experience. I sort of enjoy the choppy waters, I'd rather make her adjust to me than doing all that stuff to qualify for her.

        Once she sees you don't fear the choppy waters and even escalate in such situations (not in terms of aggressiveness, but smiling, kino, strategic steps, etc.) things improve.

        Bulging biceps wouldn't have the same effect. You're already stronger than she is, so muscle size isn't the problem.

        [–][deleted]  (3 children)

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        [deleted]

          [–]blarggggggggggg 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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          She'll see your new biceps and think 'hng' not 'uh-oh he might be stronger than me now'.

          Working out and losing weight has been the single biggest factor in reviving my bedroom. My wife has commented approvingly of my arms when I hold her, when I lean on a table and she sees my triceps bulging out, she gets extra 'friendly'. I don't even have to try anything to initiate dread, she notices other women checking me out all the time now. I also feel sexier and better about myself which carries over positively into the bedroom as well.

          [–]1cover20 -5 points-4 points  (1 child)

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          Yes they do create some visceral response in a woman, but she might also think "big dumb jock" and manipulate harder. (And I've noticed a lot of posts by jocks getting cheated on with other jocks, dumped for other jocks, etc. Jockishness is not the rare commodity. Strength of mind is.) The bigger they come the harder they fall, etc. If you look at truly powerful men in the world, only one is a former bodybuilder, and in his powerful days as governor of California, Arnold never took off his shirt.

          Putin doesn't look like a bodybuilder, just a moderately in-shape older guy who does outdoorsy stuff and has some PR photos. He is not a "hunk" and his muscles are not his appeal.

          You should enjoy the choppy waters. That's how the woman controls you, with that threat. If you dive in eagerly, you'll find you have more control there than she does. The very fact that you embrace combat means that you win. But then my wife has always been a bit of a wild horse.

          [–]Chirp_Downvote_Celly 11 points12 points  (1 child)

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          If you think the goal of lifting/getting in shape is to demonstrate you're stronger than your SO... Wow. Just go back to the FAQ's and start over.

          [–]bgat79 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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          sounds like fat acceptance. self improvement benefits you first.

          [–]srtor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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          Why you are saying dominate her. I would say, being LTR you were like a provider. Now stop being a provider, let her 'earn' it. I agree, you must change focus on you. Be fit, 'healthy mind in healthy body'. I don't agree with 'earn more money' as OP stated. If earning more, is to 'provide her more' then it is useless. I think, in a 'semi broken' relationship (as stated by OP), present your 'new self' and maintain your frame in case of any 'resistance'. Women will do their 'shit test' but you being in control should 'pass' it gracefully. It is a challenging phase, but TRP principles should help.

          [–]rphb187 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

          Not really. Remember SMV. If your SMV is low and hers is higher, you'll never get anywhere. Raise your SMV. This is basically Athol Kay's MAP. Game can give you a point or two maybe if you're good at it, but chances are you're not good at if your relationship sucks.

          You can lose weight very fast. Jacked takes years but basically fit should take about one year for all but the extremely unwell.

          Most people can make more money. But if you really can't, show some other kind of social dominance or mastery. Have some value.

          [–]tempus_wor 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

          Agreed, small adjustments are easy to make, but really, in a LTR, she is watching and waiting for you to go back to the Beta she's used to.

          Then BAM! she hits you worse than ever. In order to truly succeed, you must be in it for the long run. We need lifestyle change... workouts part of your life now. Investing in your ability to make more money, and spending it wisely, investing in more for your future. Social dominance in a more and more expanding rate and so on...

          To reiterate, this is not a 2 or 3 month strategy, this is a lifestyle change that must, must, be accepted. You have to swallow TRP once and for all!

          [–][deleted]  (1 child)

          sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

          [deleted]

            [–]krystyin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

            Much of TRP is difficult to follow - as a man you have stop being who you were and become who you are (fake it till you make it).

            [–]reason_is_why 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

            Reasonable observation: This seems to be a common problem among men. They let themselves go physically, mess up the budget, get angry/jealous/sniveling, and surround themselves with a poor quality social circle.

            All of this makes a woman anxious about her decision. It is not her fault he doesn't know how to run his life. She tries to tell him how to run his life, he calls it nagging and ignores her. Naturally this increases her anxiety.

            Eventually she will leave, branch or no, even if to be a single mother or an old maid. She figures she can do bad by herself.

            [–]dammpp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

            Thank you. This is really helpful. It is always helpful when there is a list to look at.

            [–]visibleinvisible 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

            One must keep in mind: it is far more difficult to salvage a sunken ship than to build a new one.

            [–]blarggggggggggg 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

            I'm trying to avoid a long winded 'cool story bro' here but this post really rings true in my personal situation.

            The only thing I think I can really add to what everyone else has posted is that before I found TRP, I started seeing a councilor to help me with my issues. I am still going, and that has been a really good fallback excuse for all of the changes I have been making in my life.

            Insisting on boys nights out? Councilor said I needed it for my mental health and it would help the marriage. Acting more assertive? Councilor said I needed to address issues head on instead of bitchy passive-aggressive behavior. and so on

            [–]squareball 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            That was really solid advice. Thank you.

            [–]DevilMayCry 0 points1 point  (2 children)

            sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

            I see a lot of comments about techniques like dread game, agree and amplify, etc. Where do I read about these?

            [–]ToddSD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

            Read the sidebar for all background info

            [–]williamwilliam2 0 points1 point  (2 children)

            sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

            Not agreeing. First claim what you deserve NOW, no matter the issue or size. You probably underestimate what you deserve right NOW. Things like what to do with your time, the money you make, the people you hang out with.

            This post appears to say you have to wait to gain some momentum. Don't wait. Start now, even if small.

            [–]DanG3 5 points6 points  (1 child)

            sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

            You don't/can't "deserve" anything you have disrespected (DLVed) yourself into losing. In RP thinking it's similar to a Land Whale saying, "I deserve to be considered attractive for who I am."

            [–]williamwilliam2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

            I am claiming not all is lost. You still "deserve" more than you may think. You're not starting at zero. A Land Whale may deserve to be considered well-mannered. A former-BP husband deserve to decide how to spend his day.

            Think of it another way: the former-BP husband has gone further BP than you have and you can't imagine he's lost so much more than you ever had. You'd probably suggest a 'quick-fix' on a couple of issues immediately. For example, his wife may not want him to schedule time to get in shape. He'd better ignore her on this front, or he's not going down the RP path.

            [–][deleted]  (3 children)

            sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

            [deleted]

              [–]nomdplume 0 points1 point  (2 children)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              Making someone insecure is never a good idea, especially in a LTR. Everyone wants safety and security. Don't believe me? Read 90%+ of the posts in TRP - guys are bitching about getting reamed (or the potential of getting reamed) and trying to figure out how to best position themselves for safety and security in the realm of relationships. Everyone values safety and security in a relationship.

              Side note - there's a difference between "negging" and other techniques used to remind women not to take shit for granted (positive reinforcement - win/win for both parties), and making them insecure (misplaced aggression - lose/lose for both parties).

              But here's why making her insecure won't work.

              If her SMV is high, she'll bounce you for someone who does make her feel safe and secure. She doesn't want her "drunk captain" trying to get her drunk as well. She wants someone who recognizes her value and is willing to put in some effort because of it (same as a RPer).

              If her SMV is low, she'll just stop investing in the relationship and coast. Under these conditions, most women will just shut down. Welcome to your new life in deadbedrooms!

              You can find ways to remind women not to take shit for granted, but making them feel insecure is not one of them. Making someone feel insecure is passive aggressive emotional abuse, which is the opposite of being Alpha, and no one benefits.

              [–]blarggggggggggg 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              First of all, if a man is improving himself as much as possible and the woman feels insecure, that's not the man's fault. All people should be responsible for their own emotions instead of blaming others.

              Women want both security and tingles (AF/BB) The key in LTR is to find the proper balance for these to properties in a way that works for both people.

              If her SMV is high, and she sees a guy as recognizing 'her value' and putting in 'some effort', the danger is too much effort, the man gets betaized and the woman is subconsciously unhappy. She may cheat and she will at a minimum keep pushing and pushing for more effort to find the breaking point of the beta man, ruining his happiness and the relationship.

              If her SMV is low and she stops investing in the relationship and coasts, it is evidence that she is unwilling to make any effort to salvage the relationship, that the man is too good for her and he needs to move on and find someone better for himself. It is not the man's fault for bettering himself as much as he can

              [–]nomdplume 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              Yes, but there is a difference between actively making her insecure through taking specific manipulative words/actions, and having insecurity arise in her due to the man making himself better.

              Again, we're talking about a man with low SMV. If he is playing on her insecurities as a way to compensate for low SMV, it's going to end badly.

              If his taking action to be a better man winds up making her "insecure" about her own failings, that's on her to come to terms with. But he's not doing that to her - she's doing it to herself. His high SMV brings her SMV into question. Not a bad thing.

              Similarly, men get insecure around women with high SMV. There are two ways to address this - sabotage her SMV as much as possible to try to bring her SMV down to his level (at least in her head), or increase his own actual SMV until the values are equalized and both individuals are interested in creating a valuable partnership.

              Guess which one works for the long game, and has both people feeling fulfilled?

              [–]circlhat -1 points0 points  (9 children)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              These are your responsibilities as a man. If you are not being respected, you have neglected some or all of them for years.

              I disagree, you never deserve to be disrespected, its more of a mind game than what you did or didn't do.

              As a Red Piller I do 10 times as less than I ever did as blue pill and get 10 times more respect.

              If a girl disrespect you she is a bad person, that has to be your mind set; not some macho I can never lose frame and everything is my fault shit.

              If you believe you deserve respect you will demand it, if you are making less money and your girl gives you trouble do not become insecure and whinny and try to make more money to please her.

              I make a lot less money now and so much happier for it, my girl tried to give me shit and fortunately i had enough common sense to ignore this bullshit and said , "This is what I am if you want better feel free to leave"

              tl;dr you are good enough for your women and wife as you are and until you accept yourself you can't grow.

              [–]reason_is_why 2 points3 points  (7 children)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              Respect is earned, not demanded, both in the workplace and in the home. America is full of the people with this entitlement mentality, (feminists and man children especially). Nobody owes anybody anything and the sooner this is established the better.

              The Dark Triad is not The Red Pill. Or is it?

              [–]circlhat 1 point2 points  (6 children)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              I never said otherwise I said you don't deserve to be disrespected and the worst relationships are were the guy is beta. He does everything his girl wants , never fights with her and always treats her with respect which is much harder and more taxing than being red pill.

              My solution is stop trying so hard to please women and don't put yourself to such high standards for a mere women. If she pisses you off tell her to cut that shit out.

              Nobody owes anybody anything and the sooner this is established the better.

              • Dad: Hey kids?
              • Kids: Yea?
              • Dad: I not buying food today because I don't owe you shit.

              Seriously people do owe you things, you are entitled to anything you have earn, the red pill isn't dark triad but we certainly aren't feminist .

              [–]nomdplume 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              There is a difference, IMO, between entitlement and accountability. No one owes you shit (and vice versa) because you "deserve" it. "I deserve it" is entitlement.

              However, people are also accountable, and should be held to account.

              If you want to sell your car for $500, and someone agrees to buy it from you for that much, they can be held accountable for giving you $500 when you give them the car. That's having accountability, and it is so widely supported that societies have had legal frameworks for enforcing said accountabilities for millenia.

              But you don't "deserve" to have someone pay you $500 for your car just because you want to sell it and think that is what it is worth. That's the fucked up entitlement crap.

              [–]reason_is_why 0 points1 point  (4 children)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              Judging by the plethora of deadbeat fathers and single mothers in America, it seems that Dad does occasionally not buy food.

              Why should he?

              Mom was just a plate, a slut, a fuck-and-chuck. He didn't want a kid, so no. He doesn't owe that kid anything.

              [–]nomdplume 2 points3 points  (3 children)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              That's fucked up, IMO.

              If you're not willing to take responsibility for making a baby, don't take baby-making actions. Resultant offspring can be the price of playing that particular game. It's like gambling. Yeah, it's great and all when your winning, but don't fucking play if you can't accept the consequences of losing.

              The kid is an innocent bystander. It's not his/her fault the two people who brought him into the world were irresponsible assholes. It seems fucking cowardly as shit to me that a man would turn his back on an innocent child who needs them.

              There is nothing Alpha about not accepting the consequences of your actions.

              [–]reason_is_why -1 points0 points  (2 children)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              Beta men are the ones who support the sluts and their children. Oh, and the tax payer. A true alpha never wifes up women, especially sluts.

              [–]Ovadox 2 points3 points  (1 child)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              A true alpha is in control of his shit at all times, including his seed. If you busted in a slut and got her pregnant you are not alpha because you can't think two seconds ahead of your own dick.

              [–]reason_is_why 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              This seems like hamstering again. If true alphas were in control at all times then Monica wouldn't have had a blue dress to show for her troubles. In fact, these sexual forces are not as easily managed as one would hope.

              [–]DanG3 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              You don't/can't "deserve" anything you have disrespected (DLVed) yourself into losing. In RP thinking, it's similar to a Land Whale saying, "I deserve to be considered attractive for who I am."

              I WILL agree with your point about killing yourself (making yourself unhappy) in the process of trying to make money (or do whatever) to please her. At some point a Man must draw the line at who he is, and what he is going to do. Not doing this is simply failing the "What are you gunna do for me" Shit Test - putting her on a pedistal.

              [–]AchillesOtherLeg -1 points0 points  (2 children)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              This assumes that you have been neglecting your duties or that your first mate has reasonable expectations.

              Frankly if you fail to reassert dominance and it blows up in your face you're better off alone. These Beta guys need lawyers not more criticism. You also don't see the cause and effect, if you're not recognised as captain of your ship in the home you're not exactly going to be conquering the high seas when you're abroad. Letting your officer constantly tell you to get back to your office and into your grog won't help your self improvement.

              We should just recognise that beyond a certain threshold relationships cannot and should not be salvaged.

              [–]DanG3 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              Regarding the "threshold" ...

              There is a process "out there" of "Phases" of improvement (described in MMSL). In brief, you get your shit together/back together - for however long it takes. When you get to the point where you are sure that you are genunily attractive and absolutely mentally ready to accept the possible consequences of a failed ultimatum to the SO, you do make your intensions known. You declare an ultimatum. That declaration usually includes a time period for response during which the person issuing the ultimatum should see a lawyer to draw up divorce papers to be served at the expiration of the time period. Sometimes the actual serving of the papers - beyond the threat - is what it takes to snap the relationship back to where it should be, or at least one that is mutually acceptable. Sometimes it does not. In which case, the issing party has the choice to make - living in the f'd up relationship (back to Phase 1) or following through with the ultimatum of dissolving the relationship. If the latter, the strategy/thinking is that the improved individual will be better off, better prepared, and ultimately much more happy as that new single man/woman than they would be in a f'd up relationship.

              The problem becomes that too often disclosures, declarations and ultimatums are issued too soon or with no real intension of being followed through. It comes off as a desperate value reducing bluff. This effectively resets the process back to the beginning.

              [–]AchillesOtherLeg 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

              You're not being illogical but...

              The point is that a relationship can be the problem, the obstacle between a guy and self improvement and satisfaction in his dealings with women.

              One of the prime things that makes beta guys so beta is their bitch wives and GFs, shedding them can be a catalyst for progress. Viewing the loss of the relationship as losing the game is an example of scarcity thinking and oneitis.

              In the case where an ultimatum works the guy is happier and more likely to succeed in getting his shit together given the boost in his support network. If it fails then the relationship which serves as a bludgeon for his ego and a tool to hamster away his need for improvement is gone.

              They shouldn't be bluffing.