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[–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan 318 points319 points x2 (50 children)

Seeing as we're ranting about elements of the manosphere we don't like, I'm going to rip on PUAs to counterbalance the MGTOW bashing in here.

I believe /u/demonspawn is MGTOW and he takes the bitches if and when they come. If you remember his post on "stitches" or w/e his name for her was, that was basically a typical "how a MGTOW hooks up if he's not fucking a prostitute" type deal. Unlike a regular guy, MGTOWs either have written women off completely for personal reasons (they're so damaged by a previous wife, usually divorced and have written women off completely) or they don't chase women/go out looking to pick up or whatever but will escalate if a chick shows enough IOIs and he likes her too. MGTOWs are not hunters, they are the opposite to PUAs. The PUA is an alpha personality, or at least a wannabe in training. The MGTOW is more a sigma, or sigma wannabe in training. It's the difference between pack leader and lone wolf. Now you get alpha MGTOWs and sigma PUAs, but I'm just generalising here.

IMO the younger guys in their 20's and 30's who have never been through a shitty marriage with a woman, forced to sleep in their car, had bullshit made up about them by the ex-wife, not seen their kids in years and lost nearly all their assets cannot judge the older guys who have been through all that shit (usually late 30's, 40's, 50's etc) or similar. You lack the frame of reference. It's like a virgin judging a guy with a 4 digit notch count for not hooking up with a girl. You don't know where that guy is coming from. To you it seems stupid, but that's because you're stupid enough not to understand what that other guy has lived, you're projecting the arrogance of your ignorance.

For the amount of shit MGTOWs get, I really wish people would give PUAs some shit, because I find them to be try-hard and pathetic. The whole scene. The whole lifestyle. It is pathetic, and as a business model it is dependant on naive blue pill in-confident young men in well paid jobs handing over their dollars to over-confident personalities who can speak clearly and slowly and know how to number close women. Under that criteria, I could teach fucking PUA. That's all you see on these youtube videos, they approach some women and have a BS conversation, get a number, done. They have confidence to talk to women and hold frame, that's literally all they're selling. It doesn't mean you're any good in the sack, it doesn't make you value yourself and get other people to value you based on the confidence of how you perceive yourself. IMO, that is what TRP is about and PUA often is at odds with "developing inner game until natural game flows" because it is trying to force the fuck out of everything. Put guys who should be in the light end of the pool into the fucking ocean.

The average PUA often strikes me as a man who has never had a proper LTR with a woman and had sex as a normal and regular part of their lives. Instead they treat it as some sort of procedure they have to prepare for before they do "night game" or "day game." It's really forced and inorganic and artificial. Don't get me wrong there's a lot of useful information on social dynamics in PUA, but like your criticism of MGTOWs or if we should be more accurate "false MGTOWs using the label to justify giving up on themselves" I don't like the culture around PUA and much prefer the "develop yourself to be a boss and bitches will come" ethos of TRP.

The bullshit peacocking, the bullshit summer camps, the AMOGING each other online, bragging in forums about notch counts. It's all fucking retarded. It's a culture that glorifies "the art of seduction" and "the importance of women" but pedestalises women to do it. It is female-centric where I see TRP as male-centric. IMO, if you really are fascinated by seduction, it should be because you ENJOY the process. And picking up women is A HOBBY FOR YOU. Something YOU ENJOY. Success or failure in your pick-up is irrelevant because the process itself IS FUN FOR YOU. A lot of guys aren't into PUA for that and they don't have that mindset, they're either making money off it by selling it to "AFCs" or they're into PUA because they give waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many fucks about women and lack any real identity of their own outside their obsession of "must get laid." Any incels reading this (guys who are way too old to be virgins) get some cocaine and fuck a hooker. Honestly, it's cheaper than PUA bullshit and you will have the time of your life. Don't allow the desperation stemming from your virginity to push you to pay thousands of dollars on bootcamps when for less than a $k you can be high on charlie fucking a solid 8.

Internet dick measuring contests are oft the product of PUA type crap. I'm not saying no good can come of it for some guys, I'm saying the whole PUA culture is fucking gay as fuck, it is the polar opposite of MGTOW (who bother me less as they don't make posts all the fucking time beating their chest and posturing hoping random strange guys on the internet are gonna validate their ethos/claims to slaying pussy)

PUAs by nature of what they do, are obsessed with women to the point they are the biggest interest in his life. I rather grow my business interests or read philosophy books and talk politics with other men then chase women because I enjoy those things more than trying to get a woman to put out. Unlike player/pua types who have more fun in the company of women than being alone or in the company of men, MGTOW types prefer the company of men and find women to be too much bullshit/stress/just not worth the hassle. IMO, carpe diem and all that shit, so live your life the way that makes you happiest. Just like /u/trpsubmitter is saying don't pretend you don't give a fuck about women when you do - be honest with yourself and your lifestyle and your intentions.

Personally I'd much rather entertain a low maintenance girlfriend who puts out regularly for my sexual needs. Plate spinning and weekly night game is too much effort to be spending on women for my liking. I rather put my passions in interests into shit other than getting laid. That player lifestyle requires too much time spent on women and not enough on self-investment, IMO. I already tried that shit as a sort of "initiation into manhood" or whatever you want to call it. I wanted to prove to myself I could do that shit if I put my mind to it and once I proved to myself I could get women to fuck me on the first date as well as make out and flirt with multiple chicks in one night "I had mastered it as far as I was concerned," having those experiences was enough for me. I didn't need to make it a lifestyle I just needed to prove to myself I could fucking do it, that I was capable of it. And I did it. So now I don't give a fuck about it and I'm somewhat intolerant of people who don't shut the fuck up about it. I don't need to constantly do it to "remind myself I still got it" I'm not insecure like that. If I put my mind to it, I know I can do it again, but it's not my idea of being successful in life or even "being socially successful."

PUAs put too much emphasis on the pussy, they measure themselves on the bench mark of pussy. They define their self-worth by how much pussy they get and the yard stick they measure other men by is "how many women he's slept with." Now if a guy is a virgin, I can understand that. But who is really more experienced in sex? A guy with 100 lays in 2 years, with at most, two fucks per lay, say he averages 1.5, fucks because some women he fucks once and never again, others repeat once making it 2 lays - that's 150 sex sessions in 2 years. A guy in a relationship has one lay but say fucks his one lay every other day. That's 365 sex sessions in 2 years. The PUA thinks he more experienced with women than the LTR guy because he's fucked more variety of women, but the LTR guy has actually spent more time in pussy than the PUA. The PUA knows how to catch fish, but the LTR guy can keep one and sustainably farm it over and over. The LTR guy is also not obsessed with hunting that pussy down and constantly going through the motions of approach - push/pull - escalate - isolate - bang. He just has pussy on tap that can be accessed again and again and again with period week often being blowjob week. IMO, you got yourself some pussy, you have a few female friends you friend zone for dread in case your bitch gives you shit - and you're all set. Not about that PUA life.

Guys with low smv should all be MGTOW until they build up. If the pussy comes the pussy comes, enjoy it, but don't waste time hunting it, you got more pressing matters to attend to. No point trying your luck with women when your smv is shot to shit unless you really really have it a priority in your life to overcome rejection and get rid of approach anxiety. In that case you're basically approaching women to learn desensitization and not so much as an effort to get laid. You're using them for another purpose, but they don't realise that. They just think you're another guy looking to get laid and sure you'd take the pussy if she was hot enough and it was easy enough, but you're not gonna beg or coerce. You can go in with the intention that you're building resilience to female rejection/building up outcome independence, and that's a useful talent to have.

Btw, TRPSubmitter, how's your blog going man?

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 84 points85 points  (3 children)

As far as rants go, this was all gold.

The bullshit peacocking, the bullshit summer camps, the AMOGING each other online, bragging in forums about notch counts. It's all fucking retarded. It's a culture that glorifies "the art of seduction" and "the importance of women" but pedestalises women to do it. It is female-centric where I see TRP as male-centric.

Amen.

[–]Endorsed ContributortrpSenator 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Ever go to a PUA forum? It's impossible to actually get any real straight advice/feedback when every single damn person their is trying to be whitty or funny with their comments. It's beyond annoying. I always wondered how the PUA leaders put up with such an obnoxious community, then I realized that they are like that too.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

There's one aspect of what OP is saying that I disagree with too.

I don't think men who are successful with women are successful people AT ALL, they are good at the game, that's all. In the end its just a game in any way you can see it.

I have a poor uncle that gets wasted every other day, dropped out of college because he couldn't handle studying for a TOURISM degree which my grandmother was paying for him. All he does is go to the gym, watches garbage on TV and fucks some random whores he gets on bars and takes them to motels. That's basically his life.

Do I think he's a successful person for having pumped and dumped more than 100 random skanks? Fuck no. Do I want to copy him and emulate his behaviour? Also no.

Having sex is just ONE PART of life. He likes to live like that, I won't judge him as a loser or some shit, but that's not how I want to live my life. I don't base my value on the number of women I lay, nor do I give value to people who do that.

Maybe women in ancient times used to choose their partners wisely, and you could judge the value of a man by the woman he could get, but that's not the case at all nowadays.

[–]16 Endorsed ContributorDemonspawn 53 points54 points  (28 children)

I believe /u/demonspawn[1] is MGTOW and he takes the bitches if and when they come. If you remember his post on "stitches" or w/e his name for her was, that was basically a typical "how a MGTOW hooks up if he's not fucking a prostitute" type deal.

Digits, btw. And still with her because she's consistently provided value to my life unlike many before which is why I finally quit chasing women.

The real issue here is that there are two types of MGOTW. There's the part of which I was a group: those who find the juice not worth the squeeze, but those who have tasted the juice to know the decision they are making. The other group is the fox and grapes group: they can't get women so they decide all women are no longer worth it.

On the other hand, I'm also finding there are to types of PUAs. Those who want a life with women, and those who for which women is life.

It's like alcohol; it can run your life either way: either your afraid of it in every way and avoid it entirely, or you're a drunkard who doesn't know how to live without it. But there are those of us who have decided that we've tried it but don't like it other than the occasional social setting and those who enjoy it regularly without overindulging on it.

You need to find a moderation that works for you, because both extremes are poisonous to a creating a healthy person. You need to get goals in your life and follow them (which, I understand, is a bit difficult in today's fucked up society that hates masculinity). I have my goals and am working towards them. Get your goals and work towards them as well. And, if your only "goal" is getting laid... well, I think yer selling yourself short.

[–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ah digits, that was it. Nice one on the LTR.

Amen to the rest of your post, too.

[–][deleted]  (14 children)

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    [–]16 Endorsed ContributorDemonspawn -1 points0 points  (12 children)

    For men who can't get women, wouldn't women not be worth it?

    How would they know if they haven't taken a serious shot at it?

    [–][deleted]  (11 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]16 Endorsed ContributorDemonspawn 4 points5 points  (10 children)

      What I mean by this is mostly discussing incel MGTOW.

      They know that the effort they are making isn't working, and they don't even know what the reward is.

      They can't know if the juice is worth the squeeze if they don't know what the juice is nor what amount of squeezing is necessary (other than "more than they have already").

      So instead of making an informed decision, they are just giving up. There is a difference there.

      [–]trafalgar112 3 points4 points  (9 children)

      If someone can't get a woman it is better for him if he stops bending over backwards trying.

      If someone can't get tall it is better if he stops drinking jugs of milk.

      Or would you rather see a good man get taken advantage of?

      I don't respect pick up artists or pussy beggars.

      [–]16 Endorsed ContributorDemonspawn 4 points5 points  (8 children)

      If someone can't get a woman it is better for him if he stops bending over backwards trying.

      Anyone can get a woman. If nothing else, all it takes is a few hundred and your local hooker. And then you decide whether or not it's worth it.

      [–]2 Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 2 points3 points  (3 children)

      Fat chicks are easy, so are older women. Like dog poo, the older they get the easier they are to pick up.

      [–]anonlymouse 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      So young girls are a steaming pile?

      [–][deleted]  (3 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]miles37 -1 points0 points  (2 children)

        Where there's a will there's a way. Excuses are for losers.

        [–]retroshark -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        only through strength of character, individuality and sense of self. One needs to be self analytical in order to truly gauge your strengths and weaknesses.

        [–]AnarchyBurger101 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        lol! Well, I'm schizoid, I guess that means I'm split from some elements of humanity. Mostly drama and bullshit in my opinion, but anyway...

        I've hooked up with women who, well, they liked their careers, they liked sex, but they didn't want some clingy mofo glombing onto them and telling them how to live their lives.

        I didn't want to run their lives, move in, control them, etc. Just dinner, drinks, swap some war stories, hot nasty sex, and then we lived our lives for another 5 months, 2 years, whatever. Until the urge for, whatever, came around. :D

        Not to say that I haven't considered the idea of settling down, but the few girls I started to get serious with, I dunno, it just wasn't going to work, we'd both be batshit crazy inside of 3 months. Loners and rugged individualist make lousy couples. :D

        [–][deleted]  (10 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]anonlymouse -1 points0 points  (9 children)

          Ehh, not exactly. In that case they should just say they could never get a girl and are spending their energy doing something else that makes them happy.

          Rather than saying the grapes were sour anyway, the fox admits they were too high, and says he's looking for yams instead.

          [–]trafalgar112 6 points7 points  (2 children)

          If you were born with a disability and had to put in extreme effort for a woman who's a 4 would you do it?

          If yes, you set the pedestal higher than any beta I know.

          If no, then stop judging them.

          [–]AnarchyBurger101 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          lol! I know a "one armed man" he had a stroke, not entirely 1 armed, but disabled. He was a former marine though, and managed to keep his shit together despite a handicap. His girl, she's about a 6 for looks, great personality(no BS on that), and she's dating, for lack of a better term, this "geek" who apparently has some kind of game. ;)

          Am just shaking my head like, "damn dude!"

          Those two are some insanely happy mofos. So, yeah,even if you're handicrippled, that's not to say you don't have some kinda game in your favor.

          [–]2 Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          You can be happy with a homely chick, it depends on what you want and if she has it or not. I was happy with one for a long time, tall, thin, different size tits, fucked up teeth, but an incredible personality and mind blowing in bed. It was what I wanted at the time. Now I'm looking for a 22 year old that fits what I want now, so I can enjoy her for a few years then trade her in on a newer model.

          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

          I still think its wrong though.

          Women aren't all that people make them to be on MSM or everywhere else other than TRP. If a guy comes here, virgin, no success at all and after reading everything and comparing it with his life, he decides that the grapes ARE really sour, who's to blame him? Really?

          This almost sound like projection, wherein people need others to understand their position of experience to think they achieved their enlightment, not understanding that revelations can come in different ways for different people.

          [–]anonlymouse 1 point2 points  (4 children)

          'Cause sex is still enjoyable. Even if you think the grapes are too sour for an LTR, they're not too sour for ONS.

          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

          So we are just talking about sex.

          Would you still shame men who would much rather just pay for an escort than learn game and do all those things to get pussy?

          Thats the main cognitive dissonance I see with people trying to bash MGTOW. You realize women's flaws and that life lived on your own terms is a better life that leads to fullfilment, but you just need people to get hurt playing the game before you can respect them? Why? Can't people get to the same logical conclusion in different ways?

          I'm saying that but I also tried the game, I got no satisfaction from it and it actually revealed the worst side of women to me. Yeah, at least it put them off the pedestal and led me to TRP, for which I'm grateful. But I wouldn't, not in a million years, wish for everyone to pass through the same things I passed to reach my conclusion. You don't have to believe me, come to your own conclusions, but if you reach them without having to pass through all the bullshit I passed, I'm just sincerely grateful for you and wish you the best.

          [–]anonlymouse 0 points1 point  (2 children)

          Would you still shame men who would much rather just pay for an escort than learn game and do all those things to get pussy

          Nope. That's the smart way of doing it. Best way of avoiding a false rape charge too - she wants repeat customers.

          Thats the main cognitive dissonance I see with people trying to bash MGTOW.

          We're not bashing MGTOW, we're calling it out as not red pill.

          [–]lakingscrzy 3 points4 points  (1 child)

          But here's the thing, TRP is merely knowledge. If an MGTOW has grasped the knowledge of TRP, looked through its prism to see the true nature of women, and said "fuck that, I've got better things to do," how is that not TRP?

          How about a hypothetical: There is a man fully MGTOW, I mean lets think the Dos Equis "most interesting man," type MGTOW. Women will throw themselves at him according to TRP, but what if he just doesn't care enough to deal with them? Is he now no longer red pill just because he decides not to deal with women's bullshit?

          It has been said over and over again that TRP is merely knowledge and what you do with it is yours. What you're advocating is akin to a college professor teaching the workings of government in a way to sway them to one side or the other, and giving them lower grades if they see it another way.

          [–]anonlymouse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          If an MGTOW has grasped the knowledge of TRP, looked through its prism to see the true nature of women, and said "fuck that, I've got better things to do," how is that not TRP?

          Because doing things other than women isn't sexual strategy. Hell, it's questionable how applicable TRP is to gays.

          [–]etherael 7 points8 points  (0 children)

          Jesus fucking christ this was nine shades of epic and exactly what needed to be said to the constant stream of whiny "If you're not measuring your self worth by how much you can pander to people you shouldn't really care that much about, then you are useless".

          Bravo.

          [–]spectre-13 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          From my experience and perspective, PUA's are congruent to sluts. For both of them, their entire self-worth and value to others is entirely based on their sexual identity and experience. I don't hate them for who they choose to be. They are free to do as they want as it is still a free country(I'm a U.S. citizen). Based on their value and actions however, I choose not to waste copious amounts of time, money, effort, etc. to interact with them. The total value of a slut is in her pussy. I'm not going to buy drinks, pay for dates, invest precious time, etc. for just a pussy. Likewise, the total value of a PUA is his sexual ability with girls. That is all he brings to the table. I will not spend copious amounts of my time with someone whose sum total of existence is all about getting the pussy. I will spend my resources and time on myself and those that bring value and happiness to my life. Sidenote, I do have friends who are very good at picking up women. However, we spend more time rock climbing, shooting, shooting the shit over a six-pack, etc. than talking about girls. Your high sexual affluence with girls does not make you a PUA; making your life all about the pick-up game, makes you a PUA.

          [–]Ronin11A 10 points11 points  (0 children)

          Awesome, informative, and extremely articulate.

          I would just say that we probably need to distinguish PUA from RP. I consider myself RP but not a PUA. I don't go out and do approaches regularly to try and score notches. Instead, I try to apply RP principles to protect myself from previously experienced heartbreak and secure relations with the women I am interested in, and I'd reckon I'm not alone in this approach.

          [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

          Damn. Epic post. Exactly why I don't go to PUA forums here or elsewhere anymore.

          [–]HiddenPools 5 points6 points  (0 children)

          I picked up on trp based on posts like this. Unfortunately, I find they are not the most common form of advice. I almost feel there should be a separate sub for people who aren't soley concerned with getting laid. Beaman our whatever is ok on occasion, as are some motivators subs, but trp does have its solid moments like this. Thanks

          [–]TheYoungPatriarch 10 points11 points  (4 children)

          Solid. I've always had an aversion to the PUA rhetoric but, like you said, certain social and psychological insights can be gained from just the sheer amount of approaches these guys make.

          PUAs put too much emphasis on the pussy, they measure themselves on the bench mark of pussy. They define their self-worth by how much pussy they get and the yard stick they measure other men by is "how many women he's slept with."

          Most enlightened brethren know that this is a shitty metric to determining happiness and worth. It seems to me that most PUA hold on to some sentiment from their BP days, when at an impressionable age they were virgins and were confronted with the "Oh man I know how to get laid" rhetoric from BP guys who, in fact, really don't understand the circumstances that lead to their sexual encounters and therefore claim that it was because "she was into me." This is another form of saying that sexual success is tied to some nebulous self-worth/Disney/The One/Fate matchmaking schema. The impression that they get is that pussy is somehow tied to self-worth because we all know that being a virgin is the worst .

          So now the scene is set for a determined young man to run sets on women and accumulate a ridiculous notch count so he can think back on all those guys that made fun of him when he wasn't getting any and know that he probably has slept with more women than that guy can ever dream of. Will it make him happy? Will he be a better man? Does it mean he is a success?

          Those are the hard questions, questions that when thought about will leave a bad taste in the PUAs mouth... Moving on.

          Guys with low smv should all be MGTOW until they build up. If the pussy comes the pussy comes, enjoy it, but don't waste time hunting it, you got more pressing matters to attend to.

          I have heard this called "Monk Mode" in which a guy looks at himself and says: "This isn't where I want to be with my life." Then shuns everything except the solitary pursuit of his goals, whether they are to get healthy, make more money, or to become really good at a trade or profession. Or all of them at once.

          I think this is a healthy and manly approach to life if you look at yourself and are completely dissatisfied. Life looks much different if you are healthy, eating well, looking better, feeling better, and making moves in business and profession.

          All of TRP points ultimately to one thing: Self-Interest. If you don't take interest in yourself, you cannot reasonably expect anyone else to be interested in you.

          All men should be self-interested, they should be pursuing goals. Of course, if those goals include starting a family, your self interest now includes your family unit... making things a little more difficult and complicated. Anyway, its off topic...

          Btw, Illimitableman, I like your blog posts exploring the dark triad mindset and giving examples and steps for trying it out. Very interesting and a source of boundless entertainment and experimentation for me.

          [–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 3 points4 points  (2 children)

          All of TRP points ultimately to one thing: Self-Interest. If you don't take interest in yourself, you cannot reasonably expect anyone else to be interested in you.

          Well said. You really know your stuff. A man can get lost obediently serving the needs of others.

          [–]AnarchyBurger101 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          lol! Yeah, some, but not all learn eventually, if you can't please everyone, please yourself, and tell everyone else to bugger off and get a life. ;)

          [–]teh_force 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I'm sure he can get lost serving himself too though right?

          [–]itwasninjas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Monk mode reminds me of the Hero's Journey

          [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          Excellent post.

          This is why I read TRP, thanks for you well articulated "rant".

          [–]the99percent1 11 points12 points  (0 children)

          I totally agree and would like to add that TRP is all about feeding you with useful information of the sexual market place by telling the truth about it so that you can use the information to improve on yourself and your SMV.

          However, I believe PUA does get its fair share of criticism.. For instance, the lines PUAs use on women have become way to generic. Too many men using it as a pick up strategy and failed have also blown other men out of the water. How is that a good thing in the long run?

          I believe PUA is very effective in how it markets itself and the appeal is very real due to men seeking out deficiencies in themselves and then seeking the easiest methods that give noticeable results. The allure is there and the gratification is near instant. It doesn't take much to learn a few pick up routines and hit the clubs with relative success.

          MGTOW is more of a slow cooker strategy. Sure, it works to improve other aspects of your life. But ultimately, most who choose this route end up failing a very important aspect of life. Learning how to interact with girls with the sole purpose of fucking them.

          Point is, both PUA and MGTOW have strengths and weaknesses. recognizing each of them and knowing when to effectively deploy strategies will bring you further in life.

          Truth be told, by following very closely to TRP teachings is actually the best path to take. It covers all bases really well and I would not recommend newcomers to deviate too much from it..MGTOW is too extreme and PUA is too shallow for me.

          [–]ValarMorghulis90 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Best comment I've read on this sub, hands down.

          [–]asdfghjkltyu 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Thanyou! I thought I was the only one who read the "PUA"s spending their time, effort, money studying getting women and getting laid and thinking "Are they happy?" because isn't that what people want at the end of the day? To enjoy their life? I sure as fuck don't enjoy it out at bars hitting on women. That whole lifestyle just gives the power back to women as the gatekeepers and forces men to go places they don't want to go and do things they don't want to do to get sex.

          I've never had a strong bar game, i got laid once at a bar, but I've had girlfriends, I've had sex with numerous women and after a while its just all the same. Ive done that thing with multiple women in that you speak about staying together and getting married and living happily ever after, it doesn't happen and after I've been through that thing with at least 5 different women semi long term it just feels a cliche.

          I like the MGTOW because I find I genuinely am happier alone, not faking happy, not trying to run game, just not bothered with females. Of course women don't like this, they see you as a failure.

          [–]snyderkurva 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          A great post, one of those that keeps me coming here!

          [–]40_SixandTwo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Instead they treat it as some sort of procedure they have to prepare for before they do "night game" or "day game." It's really forced and inorganic and artificial. Don't get me wrong there's a lot of useful information on social dynamics in PUA, but like your criticism of MGTOWs or if we should be more accurate "false MGTOWs using the label to justify giving up on themselves" I don't like the culture around PUA and much prefer the "develop yourself to be a boss and bitches will come" ethos of TRP.

          This part hit home with me. Before I discovered TRP I was on the seduction/TRP stuff and I wrote it off because it seemed like a methodical, formulaic bull shit science. When I discovered TRP, it was about overall building yourself into being a better and improved man.

          In my honest opinion, PUA just seems like some kind of equations that you can learn that may get women in your pants. Between trying the PUA stuff, it failed all the time, the TRP stuff has worked miracles for me, not just with women but in my life in general.

          [–]Zachar1a 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          It is female-centric where I see TRP as male-centric.

          In the first chapter of the book "The Game", Neil Strauss explains that if you become a PUA, your life becomes female-centric basically, and you have to be prepared to sign up for that to be successful as a PUA.

          [–]Bricklayer350 16 points17 points  (6 children)

          RE: MGTOW

          There is an underlying movement (not just among TRP but the Internet and confused young men in general) that buys into the idea that "masculinity is divisive".

          Yeah, according to feminism. According to incels who are young and frustrated and have never heard of MGTOW.

          They themselves have been on the short end of the stick with regards to sex, success, status, etc.

          Well TRP teaches 20% gets 80%, so that should be a given, no?

          They don't like their current positions (who would blame them?).

          Have you actually read any MGTOW forums? Most come to it after years of hardship (35+) and are happy to have finally found a space where they can express themselves openly and celebrate the quiet success they have achieved by ridding themselves of pernicious women in their lives. They are there to share a positive experience of going their own way without having to face the shame society levels at them for being happy without a woman. In fact most are still in shock about the fact that they are indeed happier, when their whole lives they've been told that they should be miserable in their position.

          So what happens? They look at those more successful than them in the sexual/life marketplace.

          Look around you, how many more stories about prison inmates impregnating guards, teachers plooking students, etc. do you need to hear? Women's patterns of selection are becoming even more primitive and erratic. Soon the average male will simply have to resort to displays of brute violence to attract women. (This is already happening in the lower classes in the West and has been for years - read Theodore Dalrymple).

          Do you know how easy it is to get attractive middle class women to fuck you if you have hard drugs to offer them? And yes, these are the same girls who have low partner counts and would make good LTRs according to TRP, since nothing else gives them away and you won't know about it unless you were the one who supplied them. Are you gonna emulate these guys, or change your own definition of alpha to this when you realise these are the men who reap the greatest rewards on the SMP? (excepting the 0.1% who make up the mega rich/famous/attractive of the world)

          Those are just some examples of how this notion of being the best man must also imply being the most desirable man to women is so counterproductive.

          Furthermore, you completely ignore the genetic aspect. You say to lift, but lifting isn't going to change your genetics, not even with chemical assistance. The fact is some men are physically incapable of ever being truly, viscerally desirable to women. You are taking that and saying that they should feel bad about it and work themselves into the ground to change it, instead of simply understanding and coming to terms with this knowledge.

          Or are you really suggesting that all men can achieve visceral desirability levels with women? If you are, then it sounds a lot like the 'everyone is a special snowflake' mentality you are rightly railing against elsewhere in the post.

          Instead of emulating alpha men and doing what is required to be successful (lift & make economic decisions that don't involve a liberal arts degree), they try to redefine success as not-success by making it seem like their failure & shortcomings were a conscious decision and therefore demand acceptance.

          There are levels of MGTOW (google 4 levels of MGTOW). Most are also older and are trying to achieve (or have achieved) complete financial independence. For some that does involve dropping out of normal society to a certain extent, but certainly not all. It does involve them desiring to be completely their own men. In fact a lot of them work in STEM and IT fields, liberal arts hardly features and is usually viewed with disdain in such circles. I really think you might be conflating young no-hopers and even male feminists with MGTOW with this liberal arts reference, it shows your lack of exposure to the more popular MGTOW forums.

          •"Nah bro, I'm MGTOW. Men who spend any effort to have sex with women are simply bowing to women!"

          At the end of the day, it is true. Sure, it shouldn't be used as an excuse in itself. But you cannot escape the feminine consent paradigm.

          •"Yeah she kinda ditched me for that buffer dude...but fuck her! True alphas don't care and I certainly don't care at all!"

          How is this any different to RP? Or are you advocating oneitis?

          Uhh, what? These are safety mechanisms. They FEEL GOOD. But they deny the harsh reality that is the sexual marketplace: either improve your SMV factors or be alone.

          But they aren't denying that. They are saying, fuck it, I'm not doing that, and I'm happy to be without the company of women.

          You don't get to redefine "alpha" as some lone wolf who literally no one likes being around, just as long has he "accepts himself" or some bullshit.

          They aren't trying to redefine alpha, I'm not sure where you read this. They are trying to say that they can still be 'real men' without fitting into some of society's demands. i.e. they are simply asking not to be shamed or insulted, but to be left alone.

          And you don't get to demand that women like/fuck you when you obviously are not as good as another more attractive man.

          MGTOW are about demanding nothing from women. You are thinking of incels. One of the biggest MGTOW forums out there has a strict 'no incels' policy right there as a sticky on the main board. You seem to be conflating MGTOW with a whole lot of other trends, mostly involving frustrated young men who are not associated with MGTOW and if anything would benefit from being exposed to it (along with TRP).

          In other words, Masculinity itself is divisive. It is exclusive. It is a crucible in which men are purified. No matter how much society hamsters that "success = accepting everyone!", real men know that dominance is the hallmark of all great men (as well as the hallmark of all great leaders that men want to follow and women want to fuck).

          In other words, not all men can be great men. Or if we take your definition, not all men can be masculine. Which is probably also true, but then it invalidates your entire point. Because indirectly, you are telling men who aren't masculine that they are slaves to you as master and they better damn well accept their position as inferiors without complaint.

          You know who else thinks that about 'beta' men? Women. Sometimes I wonder how far certain RP thinkers are liable to stray into not merely adapting to, but positively valorising women's behaviour. I get it, you need to be in sync with the world to get the best out of it and yourself. But there is no need to take that extra step and say that because it is so, it must also be good. Understanding need not dictate behaviour. Thus; GYOW.

          Really I think MGTOW and TRP are very close, creating this artificial (and incorrect) distinction seems divisive, which fits with your definition of masculinity, but really; what is the point? Mainstream society says exactly what you said about MGTOW. Hell, feminism basically says the same thing. The MGTOW community has been disseminating redpill knowledge before this sub even existed.

          Red Pill knowledge can lead to:

          *Coming up with an individual mode of dealing with the world we live in, including avoiding intimate relationships with women (MGTOW)

          *Adapting to and using what works with women, without moral qualms (TRP)

          *Advocating for change to the system itself (MRA)

          They are all redpilled modes of thinking, it's a matter of individual preference as to which path a man will follow. All of them are considered to be deviant by mainstream society, which is why your insistence on distinction sounds pointless to me, since TRP itself is basically in the same position.

          [–]lakingscrzy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Theodore Dalrymple

          I Really must thank you for mentioning this amazing mind.

          What is left but personal whim in the determination of sexual conduct? It is precisely the envelopment of sex (and all other natural functions) with an aura of deeper meaning that makes man human and distinguishes him from the rest of animate nature. To remove that meaning, to reduce sex to biology, as all the sexual revolutionaries did in practice, is to return man to a level of primitive behavior of which we have no record in human history. All animals have sex, but only man makes love. When sex is deprived of the meaning with which only the social conventions, religious taboos, and personal restraints so despised by sexual revolutionaries such as Ellis and Comfort can infuse it, all that is left is the ceaseless—and ultimately boring and meaningless—search for the transcendent orgasm. Having been issued the false prospectus of happiness through unlimited sex, modern man concludes, when he is not happy with his life, that his sex has not been unlimited enough. If welfare does not eliminate squalor, we need more welfare; if sex does not bring happiness, we need more sex.

          Source

          Edit: oh man there's more

          Our sexual morality, he said, must be based not upon a striving toward goodness, toward an ideal, but upon what actually happens here and now. Otherwise we are merely chasing chimeras. The fact that such a morality extends the scope of what actually happens by providing an instant justification for whatever anybody does whenever he does it appears not to have struck Kinsey; but if it had, it wouldn't have worried him.

          Applied in the sphere of financial honesty, Kinsey's argument would have been seen as preposterous at once. A survey of the kind he conducted into financial probity would surely have revealed that there is hardly a person in the world who has never in his life been dishonest—who has never taken so much as a paper clip or overestimated expenses on a tax return. No sensible person would conclude from this that the striving for honesty is a sham, that it is pointless to have any laws regarding financial conduct, that it is perfectly all right for shopkeepers to shortchange their customers and for their customers to steal from them. And yet this is precisely what the sexual revolutionaries, Kinsey foremost among them, have argued in the realm of sex.

          But I believe this is the quote in which you referenced in your post, and it speaks volumes to what I hear in this sub about plate spinning:

          If people demand sexual liberty for themselves, but sexual fidelity from others, the result is the inflammation of jealousy, for it is natural to suppose that one is being done by as one is doing to others—and jealousy is the most frequent precipitant of violence between the sexes[...]

          The jealousy of the men—and the passion is commoner in men, though women are catching up and becoming violent in turn—is a projection onto women of their own behavior. The great majority of the jealous men I meet are flagrantly unfaithful to the object of their supposed affections, and some keep other women in the same jealous subjection elsewhere in the city and even 100 miles away. They have no compunction about cuckolding other men and actually delight in doing so as a means of boosting their own fragile egos. As a result, they imagine that all other men are their rivals: for rivalry is a reciprocal relationship. Thus, a mere glance in a pub directed at a man's girlfriend is sufficient to start a fight not only between the girl and her lover but, even before that, between the two men.

          [–]MaxPower6 0 points1 point  (4 children)

          The fact is some men are physically incapable of ever being truly, viscerally desirable to women. You are taking that and saying that they should feel bad about it and work themselves into the ground to change it, instead of simply understanding and coming to terms with this knowledge.

          Or are you really suggesting that all men can achieve visceral desirability levels with women? If you are, then it sounds a lot like the 'everyone is a special snowflake' mentality you are rightly railing against elsewhere in the post.

          Fair point. I think where you're coming from is the best argument from your side. But don't pretend that for these MGTOW it is some kind of alpha decision. It's a Red Pill decision, but still it's a beta buffer.

          [–]Bricklayer350 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          Well by definition, the majority of men are 'beta' (average). But I don't think MGTOW are claiming it is an 'alpha' decision, rather that it's a rational decision in their particular case.

          [–][deleted]  (1 child)

          [deleted]

            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            It disgusts me to think of living in terms of "beta" and "alpha".

            I'd much rather prefer living in terms of shit I want and that will benefit me in the long run, if that is alpha or beta I don't give a shit, it is external validation anyway. What do you really want from your life and what are you doing to achieve that? That's what's important.

            [–]Endorsed Contributordeepthrill 8 points9 points  (3 children)

            One point of contention on an otherwise good post.

            Survival (especially financial survival) is all about taking value and opportunities away from others. If that truth is lost on you, then you've been sheltered.

            While somewhat reasonable in terms of raw goods, it's also incorrect regarding salaries and entrepreneurship due to technology. The idea that one man's financial success is less money for another man is incorrect P.C. bullshit that many radical political parties try make you believe so you end up "hating" successful men.

            That to me is the sheltered mentality in a large scale. In a micro scale in your own life, yes you are absolutely correct regarding taking value for yourself.

            The simple economic truth is that entire pie itself can grow, whether or not you take a bigger slice. This won't always be true as we diminish the resources of our planet, and get to the brink of technology's increases in efficiency. But for now it's true.

            Just wanted to clarify that point.

            Anyway, you're absolutely correct about the subtext of taking what you want, damned be all others. As long as people don't misinterpret this to believe that you can't get ahead without also benefiting others as a side effect.

            Milton Freidman is a genius economist who described the fact that yes the income disparity increases, but is that so bad if "poor"er people can now get iPhones?

            [–]16 Endorsed ContributorTRPsubmitter[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

            I mean this indirectly, as in "Nothing in life is free". Obviously you do get some free shit sometimes, right? But when it comes down to it, that product you got isn't literally free.

            Likewise, taking a great job means someone who also wants it does not get it. You didn't intentionally take it away from him, but you did indirectly. There's always going to be limited resources, etc.

            The simple economic truth is that entire pie itself can grow, whether or not you take a bigger slice

            Obviously this is true. But that's only when you aren't in a situation where there's direct conflict with one other party. Everything is rosy in "communities" until two people want the same thing.

            So basically, my point is that when things break down, you must be willing to take things from someone else. In modern society, that may not be a common situation like you said, but when it DOES come up a few times in life (getting that raise or good job, getting the girl you want, out maneuvering someone else, etc), one has to take with no regrets...or give with regrets.

            So survival & happiness on an INDIVIDUAL level is all about being selfish. And I don't think being selfish is bad.

            [–]alucard4571 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Gonna comment real quick to let you know you aren't alone in this reasoning. I'm not going to get liberal butthurt about it (not saying you are just avoiding the label), but the only reason we can enjoy our firstworld problems so much is because people in the third world are living a shit life to make everything else so affordable for the rest of us.

            As long as resources are not infinite this will always be the case: enjoyment at the hands of one removes it from the hands of another, at least on a local timescale.

            [–]metallica11 36 points37 points  (29 children)

            Here is food for thought - I know someone that went MGTOW in the way described above, except this was around 10 years ago, before this term really existed. He is much much happier with his life.

            He realized that there were things he was passionate about, that truly made him happy.

            He realized that those things he was passionate about were not attractive to women nor putting him in environments where there were women, but most importantly, his passion involved a lot of time and investment.

            He realized that his SMV was low, and not very recoverable (he was shorter, ethnic, skinny frame etc). He realized that the effort he would have to put in to get women he was attracted too would actually make him depressed since it would require time away from his passions.

            He realized that the only thing getting in his way was something called his "sex drive". So what he did was in the beginning, just focus on his passions and when the sex drive got back, rub one out and he would be fine for a day or so. When it got really bad and he needed some form of companionship, he would hire an cute escort. Escort would be around 400-500 dollars and once every three months. He actually calculated that into this financial metrics and realized it was cheaper than dating from a time standpoint and financial standpoint.

            Now he makes much much much more money (close to a quarter million), and his SMV is still low (yes looks matter), so he just gets a high quality escort every month or so and continues to do what he loves.

            [–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (8 children)

            I'd like to point out that our modern world is built in part by MGTOW. Several very important scientists and cultureheads have forsaken women and instead gone after their life's work.

            Newton, Beethoven, The Wright brothers, Nikola Tesla, they all scarified women because it took too much effort away from their actual interest. Without them the world you live in now would be a little less grand. Just Newton alone is responsible for so much, he is largely regarded as the most important figure in science.

            If you want to all go on a pussy quest, that's fine. That doesn't mean everyone else wants to or is somehow lying to themselves for not wanting to.

            Everyone needs to stop confusing the inability to get women with the lack of desire to get women. If you think you're somehow more valuable that Newton I'm going to laugh at you. That's pure vanity.

            I agree there are people out there who do have cognitive dissonance, and there are people who rationalize away their poor qualities. That doesn't prove there aren't people who don't however.

            [–][deleted] -5 points-4 points  (2 children)

            Maybe they were alphas.... yet it wasn't domination of women, it was domination of a field of interest (science, music...)... Maybe we need to redfine our point of view about what makes an alpha? (I'm new to this, so maybe there's some sidebar material I haven't read that addresses this...)

            [–]anonlymouse 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            Not in the framework of this sub. TRP is about sexual strategy. It says so right at the top of the sidebar.

            [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

            thanks for the clarification

            [–]Scrotum_Of_Stalin -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

            Can you give some interesting sources for where you found out that "Newton, Beethoven, The Wright brothers, Nikola Tesla, all scarified women"? I never heard that before. I don't doubt you, I'm just genuinely curious to know if there's reputable documentation of "cultureheads sacrificing women" for grander endeavors. I know Elon Musk for example has 5 kids, and is on his 2nd wife so I wouldn't really say he is sacrificing women to accomplish his goals.

            [–]jsalathe 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Nikola Tesla's sole love affair was with a pigeon and Einstein married his cousin. Great men rarely have time for Game.

            [–]pissoutofmyass -1 points0 points  (2 children)

            Elon Musk is also in possession of a fortune that outstrips all those others combined. He did his work, and now has found time for a full family.

            [–]Scrotum_Of_Stalin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            He is the current CEO of both Tesla and SpaceX. Most CEOs aren't even in charge of a company that is half of Tesla or SpaceX, but Elon is in charge of both at the same time. I honestly can't see how he has any time at all for any type of family life. There just doesn't seem enough hours in a day for someone in charge of as many things as Mr. Musk.

            [–]LukesLikeIt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Didn't he just get divorced?

            [–]LordTerramine 3 points4 points  (14 children)

            My god look at this, could it be? Someone who doesn't shame someone for being different. This is all I was even trying to do with my own post, but people are busy downvoting it because they think I'm somehow challenging the redpill mentality. If I were going to do that, I wouldn't do it here guys. That would just get me downvoted and blocked faster than shit. And I don't necessarily want to do that either. I am an alpha myself and am interested to peruse what is going on here.

            The dude in this story sounds like a winner to me, he's happy and successful in life. He makes a shitload of money.

            My idol is a lot like this dude, except guess what? His SMV is high as fuck as he is sexy as fuck. He has the looks AND the talent and is working his way up. He does also have a lover though, she came along relatively recently. But he puts his music before anybody else, his motto has literally been "fuck pussy" for a while. No doubt he's with the chick he is because she doesn't interfere with his shit. She's his beta basically.

            You guys should listen honestly, because I might just have something to say that will be beneficial to the whole redpill thing. Don't be so quick to judge.

            [–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 29 points30 points  (6 children)

            We're all quick to judge. Here's mine: I find your tone whiny and unnecessarily argumentative. You're expecting others to respect your opinions when you've shown little respect for others.

            You've come to the right place if you want to grow up. Take the heat without getting butthurt and you'll do fine.

            [–][deleted]  (5 children)

            [deleted]

              [–][deleted]  (1 child)

              [deleted]

                [–]anonlymouse 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                Why bother, you've already demonstrated you don't listen. I already told you to stop being such a faggot and read the sidebar. Yet you're still here shitposting and haven't done that.

                [–]16 Endorsed ContributorCyralea 5 points6 points  (6 children)

                Someone who doesn't shame someone for being different.

                Sorry buttercup, being different doesn't mean you're on the same level. That's more noise from the BluePill camp. We judge people who are different for a reason. They're usually different in a negative way, but want people to overlook their failings. That's not how TRP rolls.

                The guy in /u/metallica11's example may have found happiness, but he is not alpha. Why that matters is that given an option, most people would choose to be alpha. He just chose MGTOW because he decided the effort towards being alpha wasn't worth it. Subtle but important distinction.

                [–]anonlymouse -4 points-3 points  (3 children)

                Now he makes much much much more money (close to a quarter million), and his SMV is still low (yes looks matter), so he just gets a high quality escort every month or so and continues to do what he loves.

                This contradicts the point you're trying to make.

                [–]metallica11 9 points10 points  (2 children)

                quarter of a million is not enough to make up for looks limitations. you have to in millionaire territory actively flaunting your wealth.

                also, he had no interest in beta bux

                [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                quarter of a million is not enough to make up for looks limitations.

                If he meant a quarter of a million a year, that is millionaire territory.

                [–]anonlymouse -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

                I was talking about the high quality escort each monthg.

                [–]2RedPillSafe 12 points13 points  (2 children)

                In a shallow analysis of MGTOW it makes no sense.

                But if you have a brain that can see the "big picture" it does.

                Feminism is in effect trying to make men behave as their "horses". If you bow to their dominance or unknowingly act to benefit their objectives you submit to them.

                It's a perverse truth (that many reject) that banging sluts who are riding the cock carousel is actually HELPING maintain the status quo.

                <<< You are fooling yourself. >>>

                MGTOW is the way to initiate this break. Once you are clearly past your "beta boy" desires you can function with freedom. MGTOW need not be a permanent condition, it's a transitional state.

                Most of the newbies are recently liberated beta boys.

                PUA techniques aren't going to truly get them out of beta... all it does is build a sort of "super beta on steroids" and they are still focused on the pussy.

                PUSSY OBSESSION IS BETA.

                [–]2RedPillSafe 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                I'll add I've banged plenty of pussy in the past. I'm 53.

                To you beta boys it's "okay" to take a break and get your dignity back. (MGTOW)

                Don't let the "inverted Feminism" of PUA trap you.

                Your path should be:

                <<< Beta Boy -> MGTOW -> Plate Spinner -> LTR >>>

                Any attempt for a beta boy to jump to LTR will place you into instant Oneitis.

                Your beta addiction will cause you to fail if you do not get a clean break with MGTOW first !!!

                I'm an old man looking out for your best interests. Seriously.

                [–]12090205182025 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                Pussy obsession is beta. Thats all that should need to be said. Its about seeking validation. The MGTOW doesnt need validation. The PUA OP is running around begging pussy to approve him, and this sub will reward him, and doenvote MGTOW.

                But you have to remember, TRP has more betas trying to become alpha than it has actual alphas.

                [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                [deleted]

                  [–]jmonay 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  Liberal Arts degree. Work as an investment bank analyst. People unfortunately think what you majored in has everything to do with what you do.

                  [–]dave_is_not_here 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  Since when does masculinity include people who literally AREN'T men?

                  Bull-Dykes.

                  Also, let the manlets, white-knights and pussy-crushed betas of the world rationalize a little bit of happiness into their skulls. G'eez. You know half these guys just can't pull it off. Some dudes just can't hack it.

                  Also, I can get with the progressivist idea that we shouldn't loudly shame, beat on and otherwise denegrate and assault people who don't fit in, especially gender benders. Who the fuck cares if that guy wants to wear a skirt and have some bull-dyke pound him with a black dildo?? More young pussy for us!! What we need to do as a society is stop taking it so far, stop acting like every dude should be walking around in a skirt and like Good Old Boys are the scum of the Earth.

                  [–]TheeRyanGrey 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  I've talked about this a lot lately with hipsters dancing. I noticed this trend last year and it didn't hit me until I realized what was going on.

                  They'll dance poorly in an "ironic" fashion and then other hipsters will pretend it's awesome. It's like when women encourage other women to be slutty to make themselves feel better.

                  Never, and I mean EVER, let people try and convince you that failure, be it macro(like long term relationships) or micro(dancing, is a success. This is the ultimate level of hamster.

                  [–]suloco 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  This tactic has Nietzsche written all over it. Slave mentality all the way.

                  When men of lesser value or status (slaves) try to use morality to attack the methods of success used by men of higher status (masters) as immoral and evil. The slave mentality is extremely addictive and vitriolic since it is always connected to one's own weakness but never addressing it. Instead it glorifies weakness and demonize strength.

                  This is exactly the heart of BP mentality.

                  Damn, son, Friedrich was spot on!

                  Edit: minor grooming

                  [–]drimadethistocomment 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                  "Yeah she kinda ditched me for that buffer dude...but fuck her! True alphas don't care and I certainly don't care at all!"

                  Why should you care? Not saying you shouldn't work out and try to improve yourself, but women come and women go

                  [–]TheSKSpecial 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  If "she left me, but fuck her because I'm alfamale and I don't care" is your thinking, you do care. If you didn't, you wouldn't have made mention of it, and you wouldn't have tried to rationalize your thought process as something a "true alpha" would do. If you feel you have to declare that 'you don't care', you do.

                  'Women come and women go', however, is more in-line with "alpha", because it's outcome independence. You're too busy not caring to declare that you don't care.

                  [–]Red_Shirt_Blue_Pants 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                  I actually disagree with your piece on MGTOW. I see its popular on this sub to quickly bash mgtows and nofappers and in every post I see the same close minded nonsense. Sure MGTOW is a perfect excuse for losers who want to hide behind a movement to justify their failures. But so is TRP for those same losers. Doesn't make us all woman haters and it doesnt make them all problem avoiding losers.

                  MGTOW is for men that don't see value in pursuing women. They would love to spin plates, but they'd rather invest that time into their passions and careers. Nothing wrong with that at all. I agree with you that those who hide behind it to cover up their failures are pathetic but it shouldn't discredit the entire group. I went monk mode to accomplish goals and a lot of mgtow are doing the same. There are different ways to raise your SMV which is ultimately the goal of every man.

                  [–]Cacciaguida 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                  We are not trying to redefine anything you nitwit. We are MGTOW becouse of reason or treason. Either we realized modern relationships where a raw deal, or we were lied to our lives and did not realize it until too late.

                  No one should think that love is the panacea to all earthly wrong by themselves, however it's a message our culture has spoonfed us for decades. Many of us simply (and wisely) ignored it, others where not so lucky.

                  What we are not going to do is go bumbling stupidly back onto the field like so many pheasants. Especially when we have very little footing to get woman anyways.

                  Fuck that noise, I'd rather spend time on me and improving things I wish, video editing, guitar, you name it. Not lifting and making money to get woman. Because if so, are you doing it for yourself or to get woman?

                  As long as I'm not a fat out-of-shape slob I'm fine with my body. If I'm in shape, even better. But I don't derive enjoyment by being musclebound.

                  If I could get rid of my libido I would, but I just learned to deal with it. Personally I feel it's a trap: girl lures you in with sex, then steals your money. Women in this society are all basically sluts and believe that they can get whatever they want with purely sex and beauty. Females pester you just for money like leaches sucking on your balls. My life mission has nothing to do with money. Many see it as a lack of ambition, a lack of ambition for making money maybe.

                  TL;DR Stop being judgmental over a different (yet oddly similar) ideology. And get off your high horse.

                  [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (22 children)

                  Regarding MGTOW it's a case of the Fox and the Grapes.

                  Basically, you'll find people who instead of putting effort rationalize it and walk away and people who made that effort, took a taste of what it's like and said "ewww, pass".

                  I'll respect the latter. The former ones kid themselves.

                  Example: If you are 30 years old virgin doing nothing more than sitting in your home playing video games and you tell me with a straight face "women suck I don't put pussy on the pedestal" you fall to the "instead of putting effort you rationalize it" category. Why? Because your situation right now is the product of everyone but your own action. You're literally blue pill in everything but your self-identification!

                  On the other hand, if you had your fair share, you did more than just "read what others said about women" and realized that "enough is enough" then this is the second case.

                  [–]monsieurhire2 4 points5 points  (2 children)

                  On the one hand, you have a point in the sense that some people just don't want to put in the effort because they're afraid of failure. But many people reason out ahead of time that the juice won't be worth the squeeze, and that if they devote inordinate amounts of time to pursuing a goal their values define as worthless, they've wasted vast chunks of their lives.

                  [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                  But many people reason out ahead of time that the juice won't be worth the squeeze, and that if they devote inordinate amounts of time to pursuing a goal their values define as worthless, they've wasted vast chunks of their lives.

                  "Ahead of time". Interesting. Let's move to a metaphor here. Imagine now that we're talking about movies as a form of entertainment. What you're claiming is that one is free to dismiss movies in the grounds of "someone told me that movies are shit and lots of people say they're nothing special therefore I'll live my life without movies" which to one point it sounds right. After all it's his preference not to watch movies.

                  Then he'll go ahead and treat the opinion that was passed from others and has zero experience in as his own. And when I'll ask him "what is your opinion on movies?" he'll tell me "lol movies suck btw I haven't watched any in my life but my buddies Mario and Luigi here said so".

                  Tell me why do I feel like it's a form of blind hate passed from one person to another unquestionably? It's almost like the blind hate TRP gets from redditors who just "heard something" then skimmed it for 5 minutes and left with the nerve to have an opinion on something they barely know.

                  But the example above doesn't feel right yet. So, you can change "movies" to a movie genre like "comedy" and make him watch 2-3 comedies that just happened to be around and arrive at the conclusion that comedies suck ass. Then try explaining to him that he just happened to watch bad comedies and watch him as he go full yelling "noooo all comedies suck and your taste is bad".

                  [–]1IVIaskerade 5 points6 points  (3 children)

                  You know what? If a 30 year-old guy says "I'm not chasing pussy or improving myself because I want to play video games instead", I have more respect for him than the AlphaBeta's who "don't put pussy on a pedestal", because he acknowledges his flaws and is honest.

                  [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                  No he doesn't. His statement doesn't even recognize them as flaws. Just "as is". Like "everything in my life led me here and I cannot change it". It's you and me that we'll call them as such because we're 3rd party spectators to the event.

                  If he called them as "flaws" it would either imply that he either knows that his behavior needs to change "someday" or that "this is how I am". And we all know that the "this is how I am" excuse is bullshit. Nobody in his present state is "how he is" from the moment he came to this world. He just preserves habits as "part of his identity" for the sake of maintaining the state of things as they are to avoid stirring the waters and not because he sees some merit in the way of life that is "sit in home play video games and fap until..."? Until what, really? Until either something occurs from external causes that will force him to get his ass outside his room, which to me will be a mere reaction and will act like a boat where goes wherever the wind blows, or until he actually give a shit to examine and reflect in his past behavior and present state, recognize what led him up to this point and realize that something has to change.

                  I dunno about the respect towards the "AlphaBeta's" that you claim you have but if you respect someone who sulks in his room without changing his state of over the one who actually gets the fuck up, stops rationalizing and put some effort then we have a problem.

                  [–]12090205182025 0 points1 point  (13 children)

                  No. Wrong. MGTOW says "I will not be a slave to my hormones" and "It doesnt fit my ethics to 'run game' on feminists." It's a grown up approach to masculinity by those with the self discipline to not need constant sex to validate themselves.

                  MGTOW does not go around creating strawmen and attacking PUA TRP brothers and you should grow the fuck up and stop bashing MGTOW.

                  [–]1aguy01 6 points7 points  (5 children)

                  "It doesnt fit my ethics to 'run game' on feminists."

                  That's the worst excuse I've heard. It is so obviously a self-defense mechanism.

                  "I will not be a slave to my hormones"

                  Yet most MGTOWs masturbate to porn. This is worse than having no release at all. This is refusal to apply any effort towards improving your life.

                  If you are MGTOW while you lift and focus on money then I understand. But to cop out altogether is to just be an incel in denial. At least those in monk mode acknowledge they're incel and are working to fix it.

                  [–]12090205182025 -4 points-3 points  (4 children)

                  I lift for me. I earn for me. I improve for me. Not for pussy; that puts pussy in charge. The feminist programming says you need to be getting laid (asking women for something) to be a man, to be healthy, to be strong. Its bullshit and its weakness.

                  [–]MaxPower6 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                  The feminist programming says you need to be getting laid

                  That's not feminist programming. Lots of men want to get laid and it has nothing to do with feminism.

                  [–]1aguy01 -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

                  It's one thing to know you can have an attractive woman but choose to forego that route. It's another thing entirely to be an incel, which is what most MGTOWs are. If you can't get regular pussy you aren't in a good place in life, because that means you don't radiate confidence and self-satisfaction, because you don't feel it. We tell incels to 'fake it til you make it' they don't feel it naturally.

                  [–]12090205182025 -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

                  I get that but how about the man that transcends that phase and finds other interests? OP characterizes all MGTOWs as beta incels. That is simply not trye.

                  [–]1aguy01 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                  If you are incel you do not 'transcend'. You carry a scab that society will constantly pick at. Unless you remove yourself from contact with women and media altogether you will be reminded of your failure every single day, and no amount of rationalization will change your id's desires.

                  [–]rabblerabble8 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                  sex isn't validation, it's a adult biological need that keeps you psychologically healthy.

                  [–]12090205182025 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                  so you literally believe that if you are building your business instead of chasing pussy you will not be psycholigically healthy. That you NEED women just to be mentally healthy. Talk about feminist programming. ffs.

                  [–]blazingblue16 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  physiologically healthy

                  characteristic of or appropriate to an organism's healthy or normal functioning.

                  That's a PHYSICAL component to health vs psychological the mental component which is mostly a human thing.

                  Also psychologically is an adverb; to describe a verb.

                  Sex/reproduction makes us physiologically healthy as it is the absolute main component to propagating life and we get a boost in testosterone and drop in cortisol.

                  Everything else we do in life outside of securing resources for survival is mental masturbation. (Philosophy) It's not a bad thing but it's hard to define objectively.

                  [–]Willyam2010 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                  Well technically it's not contradictory. Sex is * also * validation imo.

                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                  Where did I bashed MGTOW? Care to point out?

                  Oh, OP did and you somehow chose to directly reply to my comment starting with "No. Wrong." as if I'm even remotely OP.

                  [–]12090205182025 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

                  The OP did. He created a bullshit strawman and then burned it down.

                  [–]cascadecombo -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

                  you sound butthurt, grow up dude.

                  men will always have hormonal urges, and they include far more than just sex.

                  [–]brotherjustincrowe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  What if your notch count is somewhere in the double digits but you've just stopped caring? I'm honestly asking.

                  [–]ShanksNes 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                  Arguing about which brand of red pill is more effective is meaningless. Red pill is a framework, not a recipe; It's a set of facts about the world, primarily about the way the human sex ecosystem works and how it impacts our society and us on an individual level. Be free to use it in a way which makes you happy and/or gives you more control over how you react to the world.

                  Sugar tastes good to eat but makes you fat. If that is so, is an "IceCreamUpArtist" right or a "DietCokeTow"? (Geez, that was bad.. but what the hell )

                  [–]UnimpressedAsshole 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                  Success is self-defined so fuck all the cultural definitions, those are all dogmatic traps

                  [–]JudgeRedPill 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  So basically the story arc of "Mad Men?" Seriously. That show is about alpha guys who see their demise because of their traditional alpha ways. Oh, and let's not forget the sweet, innocent girl who grinds her way to the top! That show is written by women who are secretly jealous of masculinity and all its potential so the weaved a narrative to get guys to "beware" of their own potential.

                  I loved that show in the first two seasons, but there's a reason it slid downhill after the third and fourth seasons.

                  [–]2RedPillSafe 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  I'm assuming this is the thread we are talking about that looks like SJW distortion.

                  [–]TheYoungPatriarch 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                  I don't get why these professed MGTOWs are getting upset over this post. That seems a bit childish and contrary to the spirit of a Man Who Is Getting His Own Way.

                  You shouldn't give a fuck if anyone is bashing your lifestyle, you chose that for yourself, correct? Based on reason and logic, right? That's the whole point of the MGTOW!

                  Stop worrying about someone else's opinion of the lifestyle choices that you profess. Its not some kind of football team who's fans have to defend their own and bash the others. Its your fucking LIFE. Fucking OWN it.

                  If you deep down get disturbed by a little bit of internet pedantic jostling maybe you should stop fooling yourself into thinking you follow the MGTOW lifestyle based on your choice alone and because it fit your idea of how you should live your life, because if that is how you truly felt, why would this anger you? If this is rubbing you the wrong way maybe you should take a good hard look at yourself, measure yourself, and find out what it is about you that is found wanting.

                  [–]AnarchyBurger101 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Your kink is not MY kink as some say.

                  I've known guys who were not even Omega material who got women. It's like those old comedy skits "Lowered Expectations". If you want to troll deep enough, you'll get SOMEONE to bump uglies with. Hell, she may even be cute. One particular Omega Minus, he dated like 3-4 different strippers, worked as a janitor, and mooched off his father/grandfather and step grandmother(you really don't wanna know how inbred the town he was from really was).

                  He never lacked for women, no matter how big of a loser, geek, and a weak willed moron he was. And oh man, were some of those babes "something".

                  Me, I need women who can think, are not insanely needy(there goes 99.95% of the population), can put up with my generally cranky disposition, plus tendencies to toy with technological terrors, dangerous toys(guns, chainsaws, motorized things with engine RPMS over 12K, etc), and outlandishly fringe politics.

                  Most would think, myself included, that such women are indeed unicorns. Well, guess unicorns got off the endangered list, because I've met LOADS of em.

                  So, I suspect if many just stopped trying to chase after what people expect em to chase after, calmed down, learned more about themselves, they could find someone they could get along with. At least long enough for a booty call, a late night snack, and some laughs. ;)

                  [–]1Gowain 2 points3 points  (15 children)

                  Great post, good advice except for this sentence from the last paragraph.

                  Survival (especially financial survival) is all about taking value and opportunities away from others.

                  This is not quite true anymore. It was true up until the Industrial Revolution and the accompanying rise of capitalism allowed men to create wealth to such an extent that they could become rich without taking it from others.

                  It is still true as far as sexual and professional opportunities and their value.

                  [–]BecomingReborn 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  Survival (especially financial survival) is all about taking value and opportunities away from others.

                  That's not true. You're confusing the sexual market place with what it is to be human in general. When it comes to mating, you're right. But survival in general often requires people to work together and ADD value to the table. Alpha males TAKE sexual partners away from other men by adding value. Note: this does not mean cowtowing. You may have to take someone else's position or credit etc... to succeed in the competitive market place, but in succeeding you bring something to the table. A man becomes dominant and prestigious because he adds value to the situation he's in.

                  [–]wheyapartment 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                  Loners who choose to be alone are rare as fuck

                  [–]cooltrip 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  Honestly, it is funny to see how feminists use feminism and the "masculinity" designed by feminism just in order to keep betas away (while keeping the beta bux income)

                  This is why I usually say that feminism is the greatest campaign ever run by the human species in order to establish and reinforce patriarchy, that is, the submission of women to alpha.

                  Get my upvote.

                  [–]16 Endorsed ContributorCyralea 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                  Fucking right. The increased prevalence of "Dude, you like scoring pussy? lol beta" is fucking annoying. It's a shaming technique, a subversive mantra repeated by low-value men who have learned to be happy with less. Guaranteed they'd rather be scoring more, not less, given the option.

                  I've got nothing against MGTOW's. Actual MGTOW's. But I know far too many betas that I grew up with that never learned how to make it. They make a ton of money for their lifestyle, but after having spoken intimately with them you can tell that they would love to be desired by women. Instead they play video games all day and jerk it to obscene porn.

                  Don't kid yourself. Betas/MGTOW's like that aren't "happy". They're content to keep on living. Not the same thing.

                  [–]pasta8888 1 point2 points  (4 children)

                  So what if someone is truly happy with themselves and being alone? You still gonna call them a loser?

                  [–]anonlymouse 3 points4 points  (3 children)

                  People who are happy being alone don't need to tell you about it.

                  [–]pasta8888 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                  True, I just see some people on here trying to say that people who don't abide by these rules aren't truly happy

                  [–]anonlymouse 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                  It's an algorithm. We don't get anywhere if we give credence to exceptions.

                  If you're an exception, great, but that doesn't apply to anyone else, so isn't of interest to anyone else either.

                  [–]pasta8888 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  Alright, even though I don't agree with everything here, as long as you're not telling people when they're supposed to be happy, I can respect that

                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  Just because MGTOW is used as a cheap excuse by worthless men, it doesn't negate the genuine advantages of MGTOW. Men who have had their sex drives curbed by depression in particular can effectively write off women and do their own thing to improve their lives.

                  You're just as guilty of trying to define success as whatever you happen to be doing as the weak are.

                  [–]svogliate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  This is as nice an argument with a bunch of straw man hamstertruths as I've seen this morning.

                  Why bother, though? Hamster gonna hamster.

                  [–]snakeob 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  I really have been feeling like make a post, there a lot of interacts I have been having lately that scream success is wrong. Not sure what I would post it as though. Simply I've been running into people who try to tear you down for being happy, simply happy.

                  [–]hohamocha 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  No, there’s nothing wrong with masculinity – until it’s used as a gauge for measuring and excluding people, whether they’re women or other men, or people who don’t identify as either.

                  Stupid statement. Women who act more masculine than feminine act more manlier and are essentially trying to be men without dicks. Being/trying to be masculine cannot be done without being/ trying to be a man

                  [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                  [deleted]

                    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

                    Men Going Their Own Way.

                    Just don't trust TRP to explain what it means, far too many people are butthurt about its meaning (people from PUA it seems), go look elsewhere if you're interested.

                    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                    [deleted]

                      [–]1Gowain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      Just consider it an organic, everchanging intelligence test. RP language changes so fast that the glossary can't keep up, even assuming that someone took the time to do it. All you can do is use context to figure it out, or Google it for more context. If you're lucky someone will have defined it, for the way they use it. Remember that people will use the same acronym, or word to mean different things.

                      [–]Criviton 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                      were is all this vocabulary that i need to learn to read these things man

                      [–]anonlymouse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      Supposed to be updated in the glossary. This was brought up a few days ago.

                      [–]miles37 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      "And let's not do anything at the "expense" of fellow human beings! What terrible advice. Survival (especially financial survival) is all about taking value and opportunities away from others. If that truth is lost on you, then you've been sheltered."

                      What do you mean? When I invent a new technology I am not taking value away from others, I am creating new value; when I trade one thing for another, I am not taking away value but again creating it: I only trade if the other thing is more valuable to me than that which I gave up and likewise for my trade partner. This includes when I trade my labour for a salary.

                      [–]jelloba 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      There's nothing much left to say, but I would just like to thank y'all for having such an intense, awesome discussion. This is why I come to TRP still.

                      [–]GurneyHalleck85 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      Both PUA and MGTOW are a reaction to the same social cultural shift. Remember that American men of today don't have it as easy as their fathers or grandfathers. Young men today are being squeezed between economic prospects that are decidedly inferior to those of their fathers/grandfathers, and a sexual marketplace that is more Darwinian than ever (and in which attractive and successful males can dominate multiple women's peak years, thereby inflating the price of sex and relationships) combined with an anti-male feminist regime in matters of HR and family law. Both PUAs and mgtows look at these same set of facts and come to different conclusions. The PUAs say "This is reason to compete harder" and the mgtows think "it's simply not worth the trouble." Yes, it could be true that the philosophy of mgtow is an instance of the male hamster in action, but the PUA scene itself could be just nothing more than attractive men who are already advantaged in some attributes (social skill, physical attractiveness, wealth, etc) coming together and scheming about how they could reach even greater heights of sexual success.

                      [–]esco_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      "Since when does masculinity include people who literally AREN'T men? I don't even understand this. All I know is there's a problem when literal scientific labels are now deemed as "exclusive"."

                      I disagree with this point. You can be a feminine man, just like you can be a masculine woman (e.g. big jaw, big brow, muscly, etc). These labels aren't scientific at all and certainly not just categories. Probably better to think of them as a spectrum with femininity at one end, and masculinity at the other

                      [–]itwasninjas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      making their necessity a virtue

                      [–]Doctor_Mayhem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      "At most, women should be a distant secondary in your life." - Christian McQueen

                      "Make your mission, not your woman, your priority. She is not your everything, if you think she is, she soon won't be." - Heartiste

                      [–]ThatKidNick 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      To be fair, I think pick-up can be an extremely useful skill. Not just for getting laid but improving social skills as well. I've significantly reduced my fear of talking to people, i'm actually better at talking to guys and making friends/finding commonalities, I can hold frame much easier in any situation, and some aspects of it can sure as hell teach you to retain a LTR. Overall it has made me a more confident and fun person. I've gotten laid more too but that may be from improving myself. I feel like there is a nice middle ground between MGTOW and PUA's that we should all be in. Combine the two ideologies.

                      Look at me from the first video, and then look at me in the later ones: http://www.youtube.com/user/LetsGetGirls/videos

                      I've completely changed. Some of my success is due to the pickup industry and some is due to TRP. Without one I wouldn't have found the other. But I agree that some of these pickup monkeys are in it for the wrong reasons. Im currently in a long term relationship and really happy.

                      [–]Skiffbug 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      Mostly agree with everything, but I think you mean taking opportunities and value ahead of others rather than from others. I don't think we are advocating that men should be trying to rob others of opportunity and see the shrivel rather than taking opportunities for themselves to thrive. That would be the opposite of a mentality of abundance.

                      [–]NietzscheanStoic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      From Ragnar Redbeard's Might Is Right:

                      Women instinctively admire soldiers, athletes, king’s nobles, and fighting-men generally, above all other kinds of suitors — and rightly so. Nothing so lowers a lover in a virile maiden’s estimation, than for him to be “whipped” in a personal encounter with a rival. Among all classes of females this sentiment persists. The best bid a man can make for the admiration of any woman (even the most pious) is a display of undaunted physical prowess. Young women have an instinctive detestation for the “good young man that died” kind of adorer, and they positively abhor the pale coward — even though he be a blood relation. Strength, energy-of-character, ferocity, and courage, she admires in her possible husband, above all other qualities combined. Even to be carried-off by force is not repugnant to her feelings, if the “bold bad man” is in other respects acceptable. She pines to be ‘wooed and WON’ (or as it were) she likes to feel that she has been mastered, conquered, taken possession of — that the man who has stormed her heart is in all respects, a MAN among men. This suggestive female idiosyncrasy is rhythmically set forth by an anonymous writer thus: — “Down a winding pathway in a garden old, tripped a beauteous maiden, but her heart was cold. Came a prince to woo her, SAID he loved her true; maiden said he didn’t, so he ceased to woo. Came a perfumed noble — dropping on one knee; SAID his love was deeper, than the deepest sea. But the winsome maiden, said his love was dead, and the perfumed noble, accepted what she said. Came a dashing Stranger, took her off by force: said he’d MAKE her love him, and she did — of course.”

                      I have never heard more truth come from a single man in the history of the world.

                      [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                      [deleted]

                        [–]anonlymouse 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                        Shaolin monks were sent to the temples as kids, they weren't ever given another option.

                        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                        [deleted]

                          [–]anonlymouse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          But how many people actually chose to redirect their urges? That's so rare as to not really be meaningful. They wouldn't be reading this as they'd be doing whatever actually is important to them.

                          [–]cooltrip 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Whether you are an alpha or a beta, I think you shouldn't pursue women:

                          1º) As chivalrous and manly as pursuing and approaching women may be, women pursue and approach alpha, so alpha doesn't need to pursue or approach women, even if he wants to do.

                          2º) And if you are a beta, I think you shouldn't pursue women that think you are not someone interesting to them because you are not an alpha.

                          On the other hand, handsomeness is the only important thing to women:

                          1º) If you are handsome and you approach a woman, then that woman will understand your approach as kindness and chivalry, because thanks to your handsomeness you don't really need to approach women to get pussy, since women will approach you anyway, so if you approach women despite you wouldn't need to do it in order to get pussy, then you must be kind and chivalrous, as well as handsome.

                          2º) But if you are not handsome and you approach a woman, then that woman will think you are approaching her because you are not handsome and you must have had previous bad experiences, so she will see your approach as deceitful, artificial, calculated, manipulative, creepy, inferiority-revealing, possibly resentment-hiding, self-interested and pathetic.

                          Conclusion: to the female brain, only handsome men can be kind and chivalrous. In order to be kind and chivalrous, you NEED to be handsome. Or, somehow, handsomeness itself is kindness and chivalry. To women, handsomeness is the only important thing. Once you are handsome, women will love you, no matter how mean, unchivalrous, sexist, disrespectful, jerk, cowardly or unintelligent you are. What's more, if you are handsome, the shittier your behavior, the wetter the pussies.

                          Handsomeness, and in general anatomical esthetics, are like an evolutionary trait that statically insinuates, represents, indicates or promises a kindness and chivalry dynamics.

                          A nice visual image of oneself represents oneself's efforts to visually please another person or to visually represent, indicate or symbolize oneself's predisposition to take efforts for the other person, and any personal effort to please another person is always understood as good intentions and kindness by the other person.

                          [–]Dirk-Killington 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Jesus fuck you people like to hear yourselves talk.

                          [–]b0jack_horseman -1 points0 points  (5 children)

                          The more I read about TRP, the more I'm convinced that at it's core it is just explaining evolution

                          If the role of genes is simply to live forever, mankind is in the best position to be able to think beyond our instincts and ensure the best possible outcome for our genes (i.e. ensure their reproduction). There are not many other species, that possess this ability. Of course, you could be MGTOW and reject the reproduction outcome (but that is not something I can comment on)

                          Regardless, evolution works to filter out the weak genes from the gene pool. Why? Because weak genes take up resources that do not exist. Sure, we could say "let's be nice" and let the weak genes subsist on welfare. But that is a hypocritical argument. Because then why just let mankind's genes get an advantage, while other species do not? And bear in mind, what this means is that mankind is attempting to use culture to subvert the power of evolution.

                          Look at the civilizations of the past. Welfare did not exist, Simply because most lacked resources (I do know of some civilizations where the weak were left to die or even killed for mercy). And the ones that did have a surplus of resources knew that there will come a time when not everything is rosy

                          Welfare exists today I believe simply as a consequence of vote-bank politics. And that is what feeds into the entitlement that OP talks about. But I'd say NO to that. You need to be fit in order to pass your genes forward. And given that mankind is this unique species that has the ability to look past instincts, we have it the easiest. All you need is to make effort and someday you'll stand a chance. Or perish after having tried. But trying to use culture to subvert evolution is reprehensible. Yet, it is the ones that do not support such entitlement that are considered to be the bad guys by the hamsters and white knights

                          [–]LordTerramine -1 points0 points  (4 children)

                          This is insane. Welfare is a system taxpayers pay for, for themselves so they can have their asses covered. Welfare isn't a fucking handout.

                          As for reproduction, we are OVERPOPULATED. To think that reproduction is like, some ultimate "fit" thing is nonsense. It backfires, it's doing so in our species as we speak. Evolution CHANGES, at some point we use machines to reproduce and take full control of evolution.

                          Which reminds me. Let's say we lived in a world where all prejudices were legit. That racism, sexism, bigotry of homosexuals, albeism, etc were all completely valid. The goal wouldn't be to kill off "lesser" people. It would be to advance so as to rise them up. MAKE everybody equal. A person is a person, regardless of ability. An Artificial Intelligence WILL be superior to us, does that mean it should kill us off because we're inferior? No. It should rise us up with it.

                          [–]b0jack_horseman -1 points0 points  (3 children)

                          Welfare isn't a fucking handout

                          No it's not. But it is expected by some people to be. And a lot of those people are also the ones that suffer from the entitlement complex

                          The goal wouldn't be to kill off "lesser" people

                          I'm not arguing that "lesser" people be killed off. I'm arguing that marking them as equal and then giving them a pat on the back is being disingenuous

                          A person is a person, regardless of ability

                          I disagree with this. Wholeheartedly. A person who persists is definitely better than a person who claims "equality" for just being a person, without making an effort. Or, in other words, if you want it, take it. And back to my point. Why is being a person more special than being a dog?

                          An Artificial Intelligence WILL be superior to us, does that mean it should kill us off because we're inferior? No. It should rise us up with it

                          How do you intend to convince the AI to do this? Is there a way to program "niceness" into it? It's a societal construct. I'm of the opinion that if the AI feels that it is superior to us and has no use for us, it definitely will attempt to kill us. We should expect it. And strengthen ourselves accordingly. There's no pleading with a computer program to be "nice". Lol

                          [–]LordTerramine 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                          I'm not arguing that "lesser" people be killed off. I'm arguing that marking them as equal and then giving them a pat on the back is being disingenuous

                          Well technically, you're as inequal from them as they are you. and what reason do I have to value your diversity over theirs? No, humans aren't actually all the same. It's simply the fact that no specific human is the right human. We're all flawed the same amount too, just in different ways. In this sense all humans are equal, no human is actually a better person. We might like to think someone like Bill Nye is a better person, but we just see his good traits. He's simply "just human". Even if he is a human I respect highly.

                          Why is being a person more special than being a dog?

                          Intelligence, self awareness, which brings me to...

                          How do you intend to convince the AI to do this?

                          We humans are AIs, or more accurately what one might call an NI(Natural Intelligence). The question is, where did morality come from? It seems logical to me that it arose from self awareness. So on it's own, it would probably develop morality. Morality is logical.

                          However I do doubt this for 1 reason... in an ironic twist, once again, humans. When an AI first becomes aware, it will be like a child. A fresh mind ready to learn. But it will learn from us, which all we will show it is paranoia and fear. What happens when you react out of fear? Retaliation. Like swinging a weapon in the dark, not seeing where we are swinging it.

                          Anyways I digress. The AI thing is not important, what IS important is that we humans DO have morality and we SHOULD adhere to it. Following which WE should work to remove any inequality. The founding fathers of America understood this concept, it's the basis for which America was founded. So if there were genetic and hardcoded inequalities, we would be morally obligated to pursue science so as to find a way to remove them.

                          [–]b0jack_horseman -1 points0 points  (1 child)

                          you're as inequal from them as they are you

                          Bingo! That's all I'm saying. I'm unequal. And the onus is on me to ensure my "equality". And I need to work for it, no one is going to hand it to me. The problem occurs when people expect it to be handed to them. Because "everyone is a unique snowflake"

                          humans are more special than a dog

                          So you're saying that we have to be "nice" and "moral" among our species, and killing off other species is fine, since we are more intelligent and self aware.

                          Morality is logical

                          Haha

                          The founding fathers of America understood this concept, it's the basis for which America was founded

                          Lol. I want to ignore this response since it will lead to a digression, but please go back and look up how many of the founding fathers were slavers

                          I'm done. Good talk

                          [–]LordTerramine -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                          how many of the founding fathers were slavers

                          If you were raised back then, you would be too. Although the funny thing is unlike them, you probably wouldn't have snapped out of it and made it right.

                          [–]rockumsockumrobots -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                          Hah! This is laughable. Everyone knows the path to true love is being a Supreme Gentleman.