all 77 comments

[–]bbidabbong 51 points52 points  (4 children)

This 4 step plan of interaction with women is one of the most important things one can remember and practice. But we need just one maybe. Or two step plan.

Out of 20+ chicks I had sex with, probably 99% percent fell for me after few minutes long conversation with no other intentions from my side then to just talk to her.

It is important not just because my relaxed personality then removes the creep vibe we all sometimes have.

But because anyway there is only one thing we can do to seduce women. Go talk to her. And hope that she will like you. We are being choosen, regardless of the fact that many guys do not get it.

Talk, natural and relaxed. In this state you are always confident, always managing shit tests, always standing your ground, and always willing to leave.

Trying to win her over in any other way then this is wrong way I believe. Shifting and acting are all on your soul to pay.

Not to mention, women feel when you are not relaxed, and marks you as beta at best, at normal they additionally try to crush you. Many of them enjoy in crushing weak man.

Dark triads and sociopaths may have different take on this, but they are different breed. Guys like me talk about natural human relation and connecting, with some kinky shit afterwards, they talk about manipulation and exploiting weaknesses in people.

With kinky shit afterwards.

Also, I support belief that prerequisite to confidence is knowledge, and experience.

But also, there are other types of confidence, I would call them irrational types. It is when you do not have experience or knowledge about something, but you are confident anyway, you believe in yourself. This is kind of deeper confidence, maybe prerequisite to gain experience and knowledge in order to achieve other, rational confidence.

[–]1Starswarm 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Your writing style is strangely poetic. I like it. Also, this statement

Many of them enjoy in crushing weak man.

is an excellent example of why frame control is so important.

Women shit test and take pleasure in mentally dominating people the same way that men do. The only difference is that when they fail to dominate, they get horny.

[–]KarmaEnthusiast 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'd disagree that said quality is exclusive to females.

Masculine attracts feminine and vice versa. Regardless of the sex of the person. There's just a trend (what red pill is about) towards men being masculine and women being feminine.

[–]bbidabbong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would call it strangely uneducated. I am not native english speaker.

But here, you reframed that nice for me. Thanks.

[–]ringostardestroyer 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I know someone who is irrationally confident in the way that you describe. More often than not he talks about things extremely confidently but I realize he is incorrect later on. This caused me to lose a lot of respect for him. He does well with ONS but sucks at relationships.

Irrational confidence might be an r-selection trait in that sense. Unstable in any long term social circumstance however is great at pumping and dumping/being a social nomad.

[–]williamwilliam2 87 points88 points  (19 children)

"fake it until you make it" has some value when it comes to having good posture and communication skills. Your brain will actually work better when you're physically in the right posture.

[–]smokingmonkey420 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I concur. The manifestations of confidence are objective and consistent with human behavior. Open posture. Direct eye contact. Cocky demeanor. The list goes on and on..

These characteristics can be learned and emulated.

[–]FishFoxFerret 15 points16 points  (5 children)

"Fake it til you make it" is essentially "Practice makes perfect."

Just do it and continue doing it, it will become second nature over time.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 13 points14 points  (4 children)

Repetition will develop reasonable competence, and competence builds confidence... But if you want to be special, then you need to upgrade to "Perfect practice makes perfect."

Hoops star Stephen Curry's father, Dell Curry, was a a phenomenal 3-point shooter and had a decent NBA career. The rest of his game wasn't remarkable, but he could shoot the lights out. He taught his son how to shoot and how to practice.

I mention him because my son once played against Stephen Curry in grade-school. The guy was ridiculously good, even at that young age.

Most of us are just hacks reinforcing the same old mediocrity.

[–]soulmatter[🍰] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Specialization is for insects. We can't all be orators of presidential caliber, yet the president also has other great skills to handle tasks other than looking good. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

[–]2Red_August 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Care to elaborate a little bit? I'm not sure if you mean that specialisation is bad, or having other specialised skills besides the popular ones is good, or that being perfect as in "well rounded" is in fact not good?

[–]soulmatter[🍰] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It's important to see the forest for the trees. As men we need to be able to do many things adequately. It's not enough that we are awesome at our jobs.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's true. With any task you have these choices:

1) Quit 2) Coast 3) Master 4) Delegate

Nothing wrong with quitting. Get good at "stop doing" when it comes to shitty stuff. Protect your resources by saying "no."

Nothing wrong with coasting on many things. Trying to master everything would spread your resources too thin. Many things just need to be good enough. Meet and maintain an acceptable standard.

Mastery is for the few key things you choose to "go all in." Sure, you can pour yourself into an irrational passion for kicks. But try to apply mastery to something meaningful where you'll make a mark; areas of high passion, impact and return.

Delegation is where things can really start to ramp up. You free your resources to focus more upon on areas of mastery... Or, as in my case, fritter away more time on redpill.

[–]Gigem_longhorns 19 points20 points  (3 children)

Yeah, when he said to ignore it I just completely discredited everything else he said.

[–]redpillthrower 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I would have to say there is truth to both statements. Fake it till you make it definitely works but there is a point where you have to address the inner most sphere of confidence in ones self. You see alot of the time that top people at their field often feel like they just got there on luck, or that they are a fraud that is just waiting to be found out. Fake it till you make it is great in the short-medium run, but in the long run, for many people there will be a nagging doubt the entire way. Real greatness comes from 100% commitment to your identity as a great person.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Lol. That's the exact point I scrolled down to check the comments.

[–]lvl3SewerRat 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Fake it until you've become it.

[–]robotghow 10 points11 points  (4 children)

Confidence isn't knowing your abilities (or lack thereof), it is having a correct perception of the world around you, and of yourself. Anyone can look at a banana and say with confidence "this is a banana", because they have no doubt in their mind about their perception. However, when you look at someone and can't tell if they're annoyed, and how much, it's hard to interact with that person with confidence. That's where approach anxiety comes from. And that's also where fake it till you make it comes from: Worst case they get angry, or you embarass yourself a bit, but you learn from the experience. The only way to improve your perceptions is by interacting with the world.

After a while, you begin to trust your understanding and your way of learning, and it's much easier to approach new situations, and new people.

[–]no_face[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Confidence in social interactions is having the certainty of a positive interaction.

This cannot be faked. I have yet to see evidence to the contrary. Most fakers will be equally awkward as non-fakers because they will not be relaxed and calm.

You certainly won't fool most women with fake confidence.

[–]iCollectNails 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Well, how can you tell someone is managing to fake it? You can only tell when somebody isn't managing to fake it. If you manage to fake it, you learn how to be confident, you observe the benefits and you also become more confident because you managed to seem confident

[–]dongpal 0 points1 point  (0 children)

faking it wont make it perfect, your "confidence" has a lot of flaws, and people who are good at reading people , especially women, see it easily that you fake it. At best they believe it in the beginning but you will most likely fail the shit tests you dont even notice.

[–]Robert13579 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Confidence in social interactions is having the certainty of a positive interaction.

I do not agree with this. People can be confident and still not enter a social interaction with good intentions. If you are in a social environment and see someone you despise, I think it easily possible that the interaction will not be one viewed as "positive". I can walk up and punch a man in the face perfectly confident in doing so.

[–]TestosteroneFilled 4 points5 points  (6 children)

Okay guys I gotta question. How the hell do you detach your confidence from your looks?

I'm normally a pretty okay looking guy but when I have a bad skin day(Still on that puberty time), I feel like shit. I usually don't demonstrate it that much and people wouldn't ever guess I'm unconfident but I wouldn't even thinking about cold-approaching a girl , going up to a random girl and talking etc. I'm not that good looking that my confidence comes from my appearance so it's not the only thing I rely on but it still boggles my mind and holds me back I feel like.

[–]robjnava 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Own up to your weaknesses, accept them in a way that people won't be able to use it against you.

Obviously, attempt to improve on them, but while you do that it helps to accept them.

[–]Draki1903 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To build on that - if you are able to joke about your own imperfection, this means you are 1. Aware of it 2. Comfortable with it 3. Confident enough to be humorous about it.

[–]robotghow 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Do you lack confidence in your looks, or lack confidence in yourself? If you just objectively think you don't look as good that day, you may be right. You could try to pick-up girls anyway, but why not just fix whatever is bothering you? There are some thing you cannot change, but skin appearance is not one of them.

[–]no_face[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Know that people are so self-absorbed that they don't really give a lot if thought to you. As long as you don't care, they won't. Also helps if you are not too easily upset when someone draws attention to your flaws, skin or otherwise.

[–]semondemon24 6 points7 points  (2 children)

There are sooo many "creeps" that can benefit from this.

"Not having any goals beyond having a two minute conversation removes the creepy vibe you normally radiate"

If I've ever been successful, its been because of this.

[–]TimPartendale 2 points3 points  (1 child)

True. But if a girl perceives you as a low SMV guy then almost any action that tries to get in her pants will be viewed as "creepy" regardless of the actual content.

Think about it this way, "if Brad Pitt did the same thing, would he be labelled as a creep?"

Confidence circumvents creepiness.

[–]semondemon24 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Not wanting to sleep with her is one way to improve your smv. If you are brad Pitt, you are good to go. In other words, you need to have a high smv before you go for it.

[–]mega_beta 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Confidence is not needing anything. Confidence is resisting desire. Confidence is driving a rusty old pickup truck when you could drive a lamborghini instead. As Sam Walton said, "you know you've made it when you no longer give a shit."

[–]no_face[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Not needing anything is contentment. Resisting desire is discipline. Buying a pickup truck is frugality. Not giving a shit is emotional self-sufficiency.

Confidence by definition is certainty. Look it up.

[–]mega_beta 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Confidence is born from discipline. Frugality is discipline.

[–]monsieurhire2 1 point2 points  (1 child)

"Loss of confidence

Just as repeated success leads to building of confidence, repeated losses erode confidence. This happens even to world-class athletes and millionaire traders, so don't think you are any different. Outcome independence helps ease the sting a bit but in general, not knowing how to avoid failure is a lack of negative confidence."

Wonder why you lack confidence? You either never succeeded or you suffered a string of losses. Why did this happen? You either never tried, or you bit off more than you could chew. If you approach only 10s while being a 1 your confidence would naturally take repeated hits. If you built yourself up to a 5 or 6 and start with 3s and 4s you would start to build confidence from successes.

[–]SgtTRP 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Oft-repeated advice here:

Nevermind the rejection. Approach, approach, approach. Fail a million times.

This is sound advice. I don't think many of us need(ed) to fail, literally, a million times before we succeeded. But failure is unavoidable if you want to succeed. The goal is to succeed, failure is just something you need accept. So is the resulting loss of confidence.

I think if you are just about to embark on your pussy slaying quest, it would make your life a bit easier if you knew and accepted that there will be failure, and there will be some erosion of confidence beforehand.

[–]vakerr 1 point2 points  (2 children)

You totally missed the Dunning-Kruger effect.

studies suggested that ignorance of standards of performance lies behind a great deal of incorrect self assessments of competence.

There are many people around who are confident even though they have no reason to.

[–]2Red_August 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Thanks vakerr - I just learned that there's an actual term for that bravado of the incompetent i've often witnessed. This is brilliant.

[–]vakerr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are welcome. If you haven't yet, read the wiki article. There's a counterpart for the actually competent underestimating themselves.

Also Bertrand Russell: "the trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

[–]Dream4eva 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You only need one sentence to harness what confidence is.

Confidence is: "What ever happens, I can handle it."

[–]Doomsday_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

When you approaches a girl, your intentions are to 1)talk, 2)win her over, 3)seduce and maybe 4)make her your plate/girl friend.

A better goal to have in mind is: 1) talk, 2) find out whether she's interested in taking the relationship/interaction further with you.

You can't control the outcome, so having the intention to "win her over" is misguided because it suggests that if you don't, you've somehow failed, even if you've done your best. An approach is successful as long as it forces the women to make a decision about you.

[–]100 Modbsutansalt 0 points1 point  (1 child)

This is what a good TRP theory post looks like. Stickied!

[–]IceColdTang -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thanks, I was gonna message the mods and then it got stickied.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

One of the issues with approach anxiety is that the man has goals that are way beyond his confidence. When you approaches a girl, your intentions are to 1)talk, 2)win her over, 3)seduce and maybe 4)make her your plate/girl friend. To be realistic, you should probably start with the goal of just having a talk while just being comfortable. Until you are confident about step 1, you should not even have step 2 on your goals.

I find this is really helpful. As a rule, if you are getting any sort of approach anxiety, tell yourself you are not allowed to ask her her number or communicate with her after that night, or even sleep with her that night. Suddenly, your goals are easier to achieve, and you can quickly build confidence in step 1.

[–]primordialbeast85 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with this 100%. Want to get in good with girls? Start talking to girls like they are human beings. If you can't master that, you will never get laid. Once you can master talking to anyone about anything for at least 5 minutes, then, and only then should you even be concerned about this PUA styled approach. Always learn, but always do things within your comfort zone.

[–]Ikari_Shinji_kun_01 0 points1 point  (2 children)

"Not having any goals beyond having a two minute conversation removes the creepy vibe you normally radiate."

Thanks for this guide. I have a question about the above quoted text: is the creepy vibe you mention common, or ubiquitous, something all guys radiate? It's something that's personally bothered me for years and erodes what little confidence I have had all the time. Even at 35 I feel like I give off the "creepy vibe" sometimes when talking to women (not always but often enough) and it fuckin infuriates me. I don't let that show, but I've tried to just feel/act completely at ease when talking to women and guys in general, and over years of practice and learning the hard way I feel I've made some progress. Then again, I don't go out regularly anyway since I am in recovery.

[–]no_face[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

When you want more from her than she wants from you, your eagerness and thirst will be interpreted as a creepy vibe.

[–]primordialbeast85 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unless you are a master manipulator pimp daddy, walking up to a women with sex on your face is an easy way to make someone uncomfortable. Women won't to be seduced and all that, but you can't approach a deer with roses in one hand and a rifle in the other. That makes everyone jumpy. If you are looking for the kill, she will read it all over your face. Women are human beings too, learn to start up a conversation with an unattractive person in similar fashion as an attractive person and boom! There you go.

[–]N0TH4PPY 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This helps me a lot with my struggle with Depression.

[–]joshsoowong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I like this. Thanks for your input

[–]ogrethebuffoon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Confidence is a high degree of certainty in one's actions and beliefs"

That's secondary. Confidence is a result of self-love and knowing/appreciating one's own self-worth totally independent of one's actions and beliefs. From that inner knowing, actions and beliefs that are aligned with who you really are will follow and will build greater experiential knowledge of the expression of your self-worth in a virtuous circle. Confidence is the cherry on top.

[–]cooltrip -1 points0 points  (5 children)

A guide to confidence:

1) Be handsome.

[–]Summertime_Dimes -1 points0 points  (4 children)

Nah, no way dude. I have friends that are ridiculously attractive to females (readily apparent through observation), yet end up being mistreated and cheated on by lower-SMV women. Both dudes over 6'3'' and lift hard/eat right.

One was raised Catholic by a bi-polar single mom, and he is so emotionally beat-down that it makes me sad to even be around the guy anymore. The other, also Catholic, was emotionally abused by his GF of several years - and the dude is conditioned to believe that he is a piece of shit. Neither are particularly smart. I, on the other hand, am average looking at best - but have confidence for days. 10x as much as these dudes.

It takes more than being handsome. And you can do it without great looks.

[–]primordialbeast85 -1 points0 points  (3 children)

I think you missed the point Summertime. If he wasn't handsome, he wouldn't even had the opportunity to have women run over his heart. The big thing here that people are missing is that hey, some dudes are just better looking than you. You can be the best at everything in the world, but it won't change that. It's always good to improve yourself and learn new things, but if you are not an attractive fellow, maybe dating massive amounts of attractive women isn't your destiny? There is so much else in this life, validation from women shouldn't make or break you. Bad enough you can't get laid? Get a pro and call it a day and do whatever the fuck you want to in life.

[–]Summertime_Dimes -1 points0 points  (2 children)

If he said all that in his comment, I definitely missed the point. My point was that being handsome does not equal confidence, and being uggo does not mean lack thereof.

[–]cooltrip 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Handsomeness makes you confident, but confidence won't make you handsome.

Handsomeness --->> women --->> confidence

Get it straight

[–]Summertime_Dimes -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No I have it straight dude. I just disagree that you are correct in all cases, or even most.

Handsomeness > women > psychological and emotional abuse of lesser men or men programmed to placate women > sadness and depression.

[–]SocialJediWarrior -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Negative confidence is only useful in recognizing what you need to improve.

Avoiding something because you're not good at it won't get you anywhere. Recognizing what you're bad at and striving to cross it off of that list will improve you as a person, no matter how small or large that particular skill is.

[–]datass86 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

hairloss at 16 eroded my confidence and I never really got it back

[–]bigyellowtwinki -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This post is okay, I guess. A lot of Betas under the age of 30 or who are not fathers (becoming a father adds some kind of angry layer to you, like your fight instinct jumps) lack basic confidence. I have no idea if this is how someone was raised, I had overcome a lot of confidence-defects by reflecting on my past and utilizing self-cognitive behavioral therapy techniques after learning some psychology.

I think if this post is going to be stickied it could be improved by attaching links at the bottom of FR of people who were once not confident and now are confident. While I've heard from some people (Ramit Sethi) that failing a lot is not so good, I believe that has a lot to do with business or success in your career, not necessarily success with women. Negative confidence prevents a lot of Betas from shooting above their SMV, which seems natural and necessary to me. Game and TRP and guys like Tyler from RSD are trying to teach guys who have lower SMV to land girls they won't naturally get. The guy who doesn't want to fail and takes few risks will always be that guy on your facebook married to the landwhale. I think failing often is necessary, but the key ingredient that is missing is having a mentor. The mentor's role is to help you reflect on what you failed at so you can improve it, self-reflection is not always effective. Think of it as the difference between watching a video of yourself and trying to recollect what you did by memory.

I like how we discuss things like confidence here, like TRP is some kind of blog or society you submit your papers to, but since we aren't either of those things, I think this is a better resource for FR that reflect theories of confidence. None of us know whether or not OP is confident and successful because of his confidence.

[–]tremondo -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Saved under most important info

[–]harkrank -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If you like to challenge yourself you will often be in situations where you don't have so great confidence - hence the challenge. Just approach any and every real challenge, you will at least shorten the list of situations where you aren't confident.

Or deny new challenges from entering your mind and stick with the things you know.

[–]1aguy01 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Faking confidence raises testosterone. 'Alpha' body poses have been shown to lower the stress hormone Cortisol and raise testosterone. Standing with your shoulders back and your head up makes you a more confident man than when you have your shoulders slumped forward, even before you consider the positive feedback you receive from other people.

When you are 'faking it', you are actually just 'practicing it'.

[–]_Insidious_ -1 points0 points  (0 children)

There's a bit of a missing part on this guide. I think there are some hobbies fellow men out there can do that add-on to their confidence. This may not be the exact route with women, but it helps with inner game and self thoughts about themselves. Hunting, fishing, quadding, any type of risk taking adventure can boost the feelings of masculinity. There's nothing more than shooting a very powerful rifle that could instantly kill someone, lifting heavy ass weights, or chasing down some prey, going into a fight not knowning who is going to end up on top, even driving a race car passing others and attempting to become the leader. These all just add to a man's views of his self worth and confidence plus they make you less hesitant to take risks in life that may at the time seem huge but are really small in comparison (approaching women).

This also brings me to another point where there's much self reflection and fellow boosting that isn't accounted for, alot of men out there forget where they came from, what they had to go through to make it to this point in their life. Abuse, struggle in a career, despair, loss of hope, depression you name it. Maybe you should sit down with fellow men who are your friends, who you know are having trouble with confidence and women and build them up. Have them talk about their life for a while, take in their story and tell them that's powerful man. It's a true leadership move and actually will put you over the top knowing that you're helping them out in a way that no one else will. Tell them you respect that, and remind them they've worked hard to get where they are today so if anyone doesn't like it, fuck them (including women who don't even want to go past that 2 minute conversation mark to get to know them). Pep talks are good, try it before you go out or approach.

There's another thing I'd add personally as well, but the community might shame upon it. The main points have been said so I'll leave it at that.

[–]NeopolitanAfterglow -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Excellent and concise guide. I wish I had this 5 years ago. However, I think that step 1 (talk) should be broken into sub steps, as coming up with 2 minutes of conversation with a stranger is unfathomable for many people. Also, it's implied that all meaningful interactions with people are 2 minutes or longer, which is clearly false.

Here are the sub steps: 1.1 make proper eye contact 1.2 say hi 1.3 introduce yourself, or ask them their name 1.4 if you have something to say, say it.

1.4 is always optional, and 1.3 only applies the first time you meet someone or when you forget their name. 1.1 and 1.2 are probably the most important, because if mastered, the remaining steps may just happen naturally.

[–]ThirdLegGuy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

On the side note you can't fake outcome independence either. In order to be perceived as outcome independent and being in control you have to literally transition in the state of mind when you are not pursuing women and sex as the endpoint. And that requires reshaping your life in a way that it becomes meaningful on its own merit, and then various experiences can enhance it even further, and ultimately, sex is just the one of those experiences (just like eating delicious food, or accomplishing some goal of 5 years, etc.)

But all that understanding rarely comes in teen years and early 20s, since your body is still influenced by hormonal tsunami and screaming to reproduce.

[–]Hormander -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Great post. Thank you for those tips

[–]PistrixLutum -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Did you just try to discredit "fake it til you make it"?

Nigga, what are you doing?

[–]bobolino59 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I've been a reader for a while, never posting as the rules suggest. And I do find that there is a lot to be learned from this website. But please people don't come here for dating advice...

"Once you can do this with confidence and absolute self-assurance, you will do this automatically without effort."

I mean it sounds like the guy is talking about landing a space shuttle, when in fact he's talking about having a God damn conversation of 2 minutes on any topic with someone that might even be from the same sex.

Seriously if you can't do it shoot yourself right now, man up or die. I'm sorry but if you can't muster up the courage of TALKING to people you probably shouldn't be breeding.

[–]bobolino59 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Now I share many opinions about women whit the men in this forum (or reddit) but there is one thing the people here do wrong...

Stop putting women up on a pedestal. If you think you need to exercise to talk to them or have sex with them you are dead wrong.

Effort is the wrong mind frame, I got 5 sisters so I never had to learn this stuff, its in my DNA so to speak, but the secret is to simply not care. Be the best you can be for yourself and ignore women.

Learn not to care, pat them on the ass and ignore the reproaching looks, pinch their tits before you say hello at a party, be an ass, be the kid you used to be....

And stop caring about women so much, don't talk to them (who cares what they have to say anyway, never met one that's got two neurons connected to each other) just flirt... "hi baby what's up, u look good, when are we finally running away together... etc.."

Flirt HARD with the girls you DONT want to bang btw... ignore the ones you do WANT. Let them come to you :)

but item number one DONT GIVE A FUCK