all 141 comments

[–]trpalternate 51 points52 points  (9 children)

For the married guys in here, I'll add one thing that I learned from experience: If you're faced with passive-aggressive behaviour, ignoring it will, at best, postpone the problem. Passive aggression isn't the same thing as a veiled shit test. The entire purpose of being passive-aggressive is to niggle at you until either you become cowed by guilt and fear of disapproval, or until you set some boundaries.

You have to confront passive-aggressive behaviour, preferably immediately. When you do so, be firm but not aggressive or angry. Make sure you shoot down any denials (e.g. "I didn't mean to hurt you"). Also, don't let her flip the script back on you. If she tries to deflect with something like how you don't do enough dishes, you can say something like "We're not talking about dishes. We're talking about [Insert passive-aggressive action].

Set limits and follow through. Make sure that she knows that further behaviour like that will not be tolerated. Also tell her that if if there is a problem, she is to state it to you directly.

In my case, about an hour after the discussion, she asked me to apologize for getting upset with her. The absurdity of the situation got the better of me and I let a chuckle slip out. Then I told her that she was the one in the wrong, so she will be doing the apologizing. She did. One year in, and that was the last passive-aggressive snipe I have ever dealt with from her.

[–]200mgtestc 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I'm aloof in just about everything, but I get real serious real fast when my gf starts to play that shit. No thank you.

Your post reminded me, someone used the terms "surrendering frame" and "frame maintenance" a while ago here, and this is such a great example. You see tons of guys who let that shit go to the point where it becomes the norm in their lives, and then it's over.

[–]NickelzIsMoneyToo 1 point2 points  (5 children)

I have this type of problem with my go gf. I'll do something that she doesn't like or that makes her feel like I don't care about her. We'll talk about it but then she starts to bring up other things that has nothing to do with the current discussion and I'm just like wtf. Or she'll say that we should just break up, which is a shit test. She says it almost all the time. Threatening to break up so I will just give in. But I usually just apologize and let these things slide cuz I'd rather not argue. But I think I'm gonna start taking a different aproach and be more assertive.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

The only answer to "we should break up" should be "ok, there's the door." Anything else is a game you are losing.

[–]NickelzIsMoneyToo 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Here reply would be "oh I guess you don't give a fuck about me." Which I'll say to her "you are the one who brought it up. I'm not gonna keep trying to hold on to you if you keep pushing me away."

That usually shuts her up until she trys to validate what she's doing or bring something else up. Now that I've been reading TRP I tell her straight up, "No, we are not talking about that situation, it has nothing to do with this one." And every time she tries I simply ignore it or tell her the same thing again until she stops. If I don't see the discussion going anywhere I'll tell her my final decision or solution to whatever it is we are talking about and end the conversation. If she keeps trying to go on I just hold frame and she just gives up.

It's been 3 days since I started reading TRP and applying that in my LTR. I can honestly say that I am happier than I've ever been in my relationship. Things are already starting to change.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Just remember that she may have difficulty adjusting to the changes in your personality and behavior.

[–]NickelzIsMoneyToo 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Yeah she's already said I'm different. That's because I stopped giving in and apologizing for every little thing she blamed me for just to keep her happy. Fuck that. Never going back to acting like that.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm in the same boat as you, but luckily mine has an impressively small amount of bullshit and crazy inherent in her. One thing I need to remember at this point is that I can still be wrong, and I need to lead by admitting and correcting my own behavior when I am actually wrong (vs some blame game of hers). The truth is I need to consider my actions, plans, and words more carefully than I do now.

[–]Barrett_M107 0 points1 point  (0 children)

True. In some cases, agreeing and amplifying something that should be squashed will open a can of worms.

Also: /r/marriedredpill

[–][deleted]  (12 children)

[deleted]

    [–]JoeWim 46 points47 points  (3 children)

    Don't be afraid to ask questions here. Of course there will be some jerks but it only takes one person giving you sound advice to help you out.

    [–]Draki1903 31 points32 points  (2 children)

    Besides, "just read the sidebar" seems like the Fallacy From Authority. Read the sidebar. Don't question the sidebar. Obey the sidebar. Bend over for the sidebar.

    But sidebar isn't infallible. There are things explained better than in the sidebar elsewhere, why wouldn't you ask if you have something more specific in mind?

    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Though Reddit has a search bar to look for keywords in each subreddit and you only need to see the Top posts (All Time) to find most great posts.

    [–]TheeRyanGrey 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    I will personally always answer any and all questions, no matter how big or small.

    I'm serious. Message me or ask me in a topic and I'll answer at all times. I never sleep for brothers of the red pill.

    [–]2 Mredpillschool 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    If you feel as though you have a really stupid question, check out /r/asktrp. It wouldn't be a good thread on /r/theredpill, but you can usually ask "dumb" questions in comments, and people will respond.

    [–]ThrownAwayTRP 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    Always ask but don't always accept the answer. There are a lot of new people on here who don't know a damn thing so read up on it yourself, read FR, Theory, all that stuff. Ask the same question to someone else and make sure you don't get the wrong stuff from the wrong people.

    [–]unagiboy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    http://illimitablemen.com/2014/12/14/the-shit-test-encyclopedia/

    does nobody read the classics here anymore? All of this is much more coherently presented in both Venusian Arts (Mystery Method) and Magic Bullets

    [–]16 Endorsed ContributorCyralea 18 points19 points  (1 child)

    “How many girls have you slept with?”

    I used to get this one a fucking ton, I have a few favourites I whipped up. Usually would go like this:

    Her: “How many girls have you slept with?”
    Me: "Today?" cheeky grin
    Her: "Well...how many??"
    Me: "I haven't met my quota today, don't worry, you still have a chance"
    Her: "Come on! Tell me!"
    Me: "You really think about sex a lot, don't you?" or "Is that all I am to you, a sexual object?" either said with a grin

    If you're spinning girls, guaranteed this will be the number one shit test.

    [–]TRPrinny 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Whenever girls start to start the ol' sexual past investigation, I find it's fun liberally call them things like, "nosey", "creepy", "perverted", etc. It flips the script on them and there is a sweetness in watching them seethe.

    [–][deleted]  (7 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

      Yeah I like that, I do it occasionally myself. I suppose that specific strategy would fall under "Misdirect" in the "shit test passing" section. Good post dude.

      [–]tenientj 4 points5 points  (2 children)

      Another protip is that shit tests don't always need to be addressed verbally either.

      [–]rojo-pildora 8 points9 points  (1 child)

      Funny story, my buddy (totes alpha) is always saying "haha you're funny" to girls. He defuses 90% of shit test. It is un fucking real.

      [–]rpscrote 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      In this vein, one go to of mine is "lol you're goofy"

      [–]no_face 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I also add a chuckle after she repeats and then ignore/change the topic.

      [–]wantmeacoolusername 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      Tooling 101, love it. Can't wait for the next shit test.

      [–]robbiedigital001 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      What did the original post say here? it seems to have disappeared.

      [–]RP-on-AF1 30 points31 points  (9 children)

      Wow, I realize I have failed shit tests consistently and hard my entire life. In fact, I'm thinking that all of the hardships in my life may be derived from falling shit tests.

      I wonder how I'll handle them now, armed only with the knowledge of what they are. I'm a very literal person, maybe a bit autistic of center, and I think just having a framework for understanding these will benefit immensely. Now it will be a matter if putting myself into situations to practice.

      One question: is there any other phase besides "shit test"? What do, say, sociologists call that kind of challenging behavior?

      [–]BluepillProfessor 15 points16 points  (7 children)

      There are "Comfort Tests" aka "Loyalty Tests" in a LTR a woman will throw to assess your loyalty and increase her comfort in the relationship (Do you really love me).

      Sociologists don't acknowledge that female Shit Tests exist. We are all the same in a perfect Equalitarian Marxist/Feminist Nivana.

      [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 7 points8 points  (3 children)

      It's funny you mention this, dark triad shit tests have a heavy loyalty component too. So do some nuclear shit tests. Perhaps loyalty should be added alongside dominance/compliance/fitness as a "shit test theme." What do you think?

      [–]Purecorrupt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      I think loyalty can be some sort of a theme. Would you stay with me if I got fat? Would you stay with me if I cut my hair? What will you do when I get older? I've been asked these before as the 'do you love me'. Some less indirect ways from the same girl were do you believe in love and all that jazz.

      [–]systemshock869 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Could loyalty tests be considered a subset of compliance tests? It's a similar theme, with a possibly more noble/innocent intent..

      [–]BluepillProfessor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Absolutely for LTR's.

      [–]RP-on-AF1 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      Do sociologists not acknowledge that shit tests in general exist?

      [–]BluepillProfessor 14 points15 points  (0 children)

      They not only deny them they are highly insulted at the notion that women might behave differently than men.

      [–]aggressivejoe 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      We've all been there man. Just knowing what a shit test is and the general way to respond to them will have a noticable effect on your life. It will take practice.

      [–]aptway 28 points29 points  (7 children)

      I'm only halfway through (will finish later tonight), but this should absolutely be sidebar material.

      [–]DoesNotMatterAnymore 8 points9 points  (4 children)

      For some time I was a bit mad at the mods on not expanding the sidebar material. Today I get it. If we would add every awesome post to the sidebar, no newcomer would read it. Simply too much content.

      [–]ThrownAwayTRP 5 points6 points  (3 children)

      The absolute best goes on the sidebar, everything else you have to take initiative to find. That wonderful filter at the top means one can see the highest voted content. The sidebar is the trial version but the real meat of RP is going to be in the older user content.

      [–]systemshock869 1 point2 points  (2 children)

      A comprehensive list by category could be a single sidebar post and would be easy to search through.

      [–]ThrownAwayTRP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Could be but our filter system is just as easy. Click the flair for RP Theory, sort by Top, ctrl-f "shit test" and then you can browse at your pleasure, no extra clutter to the sidebar.

      [–]flatox 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      It should indeed. This is the most precise and well explained article i have come across yet on the subject.

      [–]1 Endorsed Contributorvandaalen 8 points9 points  (1 child)

      High-quality stuff as usual.

      Informative, elaborate and amusing. I lost it at "Schrödinger's boyfriend".

      Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to read about DT shit-testing.

      [–]systemshock869 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Yeah that had me laughing out loud in bed at 1:30 AM. Love me some IllimitableMan.

      [–]ThrownAwayTRP 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      The best part about this whole thing is right there at the start. Shit tests are used by everybody, everyday. Hell, for the longest time I had no idea what they were but I used them anyways. I can look back at nights out at the bar or a party and meeting other guys. One of the first things I usually do is bust his balls and see how he reacts. That's a shit test right, I'm giving him shit to test what kind of a person he is.

      To understand shit tests, you have to understand how you yourself use them. The most perfect examples are the ones you created.

      [–]dinosaurier420blaze 4 points5 points  (10 children)

      Is it really benificial to tell girls (or hint at) that you might have a girlfriend? Many of my female friends will stop talking to guys after they find out that they're seeing someone, because "you don't sleep with other peoples boyfriends".

      Do they say this as an excuse? Or does the response only work on low value/slutty chicks?

      [–]naji247 16 points17 points  (2 children)

      Never say you have a girlfriend... Just say "It's complicated". They'll drop the question, but keep wondering about it and they'll fuck you.

      Heartiste makes a big deal about this. So does Rollo I believe. EDIT: https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/05/26/two-words-women-love-to-hear/

      [–]dinosaurier420blaze 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Thanks. I'll take a look at that.

      [–]1niczar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Once I answered with "wow wow we just met, maybe we should get to know each other before we have the 'girlfriend' talk". Also "are you always that direct with guys you just met??" Seemed to work pretty well.

      [–][deleted]  (6 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]dinosaurier420blaze 1 point2 points  (5 children)

        Yeah, maybe. Also, can it really be that bad to just say "no, I don't have a girlfriend"?

        I'm having a hard time believing that answering that question honestly is a deal breaker. I've probably failed 95% of the shit tests I've been subject to during my 24 years. But every now and then I get laid anyway.

        [–]KenuR 5 points6 points  (4 children)

        Obviously one failed shit test will rarely be a deal breaker. It's not like you have to pass all the shit tests, some matter more than others and overall you just need to have a certain amount of frame depending on the woman you are interacting with.

        [–]Tangojokerbravo 0 points1 point  (3 children)

        Yeah, but "Do you have a girlfriend" is a value shit-test. She's checking to see if you're desirable enough for other women to want your dick inside them, because she wants what other women want.

        I'd agree and amplify here - "Yeah, I have one for every day of the week," or something similar.

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]abdada 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          You don't date.

          There, you said it. You aren't in the sexual market.

          There's a reason for that, and it isn't that all men are bad for you. That's paranoia.

          So you subconsciously realize that you have some issues and you've removed yourself from contension.

          And that is fine. And to say that acting like a man, like a leader is retarded only confirms this.

          [–]Tangojokerbravo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          But your folly is that you actually do want a man that acts this way, because you're not attracted to men that act like little bitches. There are plenty of respectable men in the world and in TRP who honor an agreement like an LTR. You just fall short of their expectations or demonstrate such low value that it's not worth the effort for a quality man to engage in a relationship with you.

          You shouldn't be here anyway, this is a men's space and women's opinions are of little value here, especially ones like this that are not constructive to the conversation.

          [–][deleted]  (2 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

            Yep, both true and relevant. Borderline women are too annoying for my tastes.

            [–]puppet22 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Yep. Usually the threaten suicide if you leave them.

            [–]cyear 6 points7 points  (1 child)

            This is good stuff.

            I've noticed that shit tests are inversely proportional to your smv with guys and girls. The higher your SMV is - the less girls will shit test you and the more mistakes can be made. The opposite is true with guys. The more SMV you have (and the other guy is not your buddy or friend) the more of a threat you are perceived as - If your SMV is low, the guy can write you off but if it's high, the shit testing can become pretty intense initially until you prove yourself. Experienced this myself firsthand last weekend. Curious if this is a trend or a one time thing.

            [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Curious if this is a trend or a one time thing.

            No I think you pretty much got it all figured out.

            [–]_valtiel_ 5 points6 points  (4 children)

            I both love and dislike shit tests, it means they're still interested. Plus, it keeps you on your toes because they're a fact of life, shit tests will never go away. I'm tested by both men and women.

            "You should get a girlfriend, you can't just use vaseline all winter." My favorite.

            (Pause for a second, I was thinking about what to say. She got me good there.). "... Says you," keeps eating lunch, ignoring her stares.

            "Say if you were older and you were dating a younger woman, wouldn't you pay part of her tuition?" (Hell no.)

            "Does she not know what student loan is?"

            "What if she never qualified for a student loan."

            "... No. That means she has bad credit."

            "This is why I don't date younger men!"

            "Definitely not as attractive as men with canes and life insurance."

            "How big is your buddy(dick)?

            "Show me you arm." (measured with her entire arm, it wasn't accurate at all. but she found out later on)

            "Your hair is kind of thinning at the top, kind of like a bald spot."

            "At least mine's is real." (She's black.)

            "N-no! I just use extensions from time to time."

            "Uh huh."

            It's more fun to act like a borderline dick, only increasing your dickishness when she's being a dick.

            [–]HS-Thompson 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            "Your hair is kind of thinning at the top, kind of like a bald spot."

            "At least mine's is real." (She's black.)

            That was fucking priceless.

            [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Hahaha I found this dialogue to be immensely amusing. Concur on your final point too. Good calibration.

            [–]elevul 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            Damn, you're so good with these. Does it come with experience, or are you a natural?

            [–]_valtiel_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            I have slip ups (in frame) every now and then. I don't feel shame or embarrassment, I push it down. Where's the fun in that? It just makes you feel bad. It's more interesting to just agree and amplify.

            If a girl asked you how often do you masturbate, would you go.

            "Every 5 minutes, matter fact, I'm doing it right now. How often do you play with yourself?"

            "Just twice a week, how about you?"

            "I don't masturbate!"

            I've had this test before, which I failed. I chose the 2nd one.

            Another part of it comes from stand up comedy. Bill Burr would say half the shit I posted.

            [–]1knitro 3 points4 points  (2 children)

            Overall very solid, a few minor thoughts/quibbles on some alternatives for some the common ones in the article

            “How many girls have you slept with?”

            If they won't answer this one honestly (or can't), why would you. Even if your high, I wouldn't be like "47" or whatever. Be more playful -

            "More than Jesus would've wanted"

            "Somewhere between 3 and 50"

            "Well aren't you a little snoop" (they'll be defensive, but you called her a snoop so you seem more amused than perturbed).

            “Do you have a girlfriend?”/“I bet you have a girlfriend!

            "Nah, just a pretty big fan club"

            'You know there's a lot of strong candidates this year, it's hard to chose just one"

            “Buy me a drink!!”

            You got it! (Reach for their purse/wallet - obviously it has to be within reach)

            “I don’t date short guys”

            "Who said anything about dating?" (Your likely already on the outside looking out if she's saying this, up your aggression)

            “Can we be -just friends?"

            You got it bro! Then high five her. Then never initiate contact again. The assumption is you are interested, so rather than be plainly earnest (explain to her no, and why) you agree, but drop her entirely. She'll be confused as to why you've disappeared from orbit after being 'okay' with her suggestion.

            [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Great alternatives you've provided there. I like 'em. Your responses fit in well with the idea of amused mastery.

            [–]Philhelm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Overall very solid, a few minor thoughts/quibbles on some alternatives for some the common ones in the article

            “How many girls have you slept with?”

            If they won't answer this one honestly (or can't), why would you. Even if your high, I wouldn't be like "47" or whatever. Be more playful -

            "More than Jesus would've wanted"

            "Somewhere between 3 and 50"

            "Well aren't you a little snoop" (they'll be defensive, but you called her a snoop so you seem more amused than perturbed).

            My go-to response has been, "Including men, animals, and hookers...or just women?"

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

            [deleted]

              [–]Danedina 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Nagging comes from a general feeling of malaise, whether it's the husband's fault or not, she's just not a happy person. It's a subtle form of lashing out.

              In general, I would hazard a guess that betas get nagged much more than alphas. My wife was nagging me for a long time until I sat her down and told her that I wasn't happy, and that if she didn't start treating me with respect I was going to leave her. Her attitude did a 180 and fast.

              [–]1niczar 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              A generic answer to shit tests I haven't seen mentioned is this: repeat what they just said (works better if that was a question) with a puzzled look, as if they had said the weirdest thing. It's a variation on a typical politician trick. Repeating the question/statement gives you more time to process it and react appropriately.

              • Buy you a drink ... now why would I do that?

              • Do I have a girlfriend? Why do you ask, are you offering your services?

              • How many girls have I slept with? Why, is this a contest?

              • Do I say that to all the girls? Well, do you ask that to all the guys?

              I don't know if it's the most effective way to answer, but it gives you some breathing room if you're not sure what to do.

              Also one trick that works really well that I've picked up from a GM PUA is to reply outrageously and then soften it slightly with a half-assed "nah I'm kidding." ("Buy me a drink" "No way, you need to watch those calories. Nah I'm kidding, you're fine. I'll let you buy me a drink.")

              [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Valid method, I would say it's a specific methdology/technique which would fall under "misdirect" in the "passing shit tests section." Looking at some of the feedback in this thread, including yours, I think I'm going to add more to the Shit Test Encyclopedia later.

              [–]NotAlwaysAppropriate 6 points7 points  (1 child)

              I'd like to hear more about passing nuclear shit tests. In my BP days I ignored them or approached them way too rationally. Now I'd just dump her. I think there's a middle ground I'm missing

              [–]rpscrote 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              same as other shit tests. They are just more dramatic so more likely to incite a surprised/deer-in-headlights response. Literally got hit with a nuclear shit test last night, former plate heavy handedly implying shes fuckin other dudes.

              Now I'm probably only moderate level at shit test handling, but for nuclear shit tests IMO the best is ignore, be completely unfazed, act like it didn't happen, dont even acknowledge its existence. The goal of the nuclear shit test is (perfectly summarized by OP) to incite pure emotional response. Thus being completely nonreactive is a pass. I tried this approach yesterday (been a while since I got a nuke) and it seemed to have worked. uptick in attraction, or at least no downtick.

              [–]fortifiedoranges 2 points3 points  (1 child)

              Another great article, good stuff to think about.

               Explaining yourself, no matter how rational your explanation is will be perceived as a demonstration of low status. Do not justify yourself, if you find yourself explaining yourself in the midst of an argument or theatrical device, you’re losing and would be far better off just immediately exiting stage instead.

              I hope more men who are on TRP come to realize this as it makes a lot of interactions easier. II see quite a few posts on /r/asktrp dealing with guys who lost frame by explaining themselves to their women.

              [–]1NightwingTRP 2 points3 points  (1 child)

              Cracking stuff as usual. As an addendum, here's a link to Chateau Heartiste's Super shit-test list. Another great read that is very relevant here.

              Beyond that, I'm interested in discussing a couple of areas of this.

              In further example, interviews are essentially a collection of shit tests.

              That's an oversimplification. I used to do it, so trust me, it's not. However for the purpose of this..

              The “name your biggest weakness” shit test seems to be a question that continuously protrudes and persists with employers nowadays.

              That's true. However the alpha response you suggest would stick you straight at the bottom of my list. Having run recruitment campaigns in the past, I'm not joking. Responding like that will NOT help your case, and in likelihood will lose you the job. Thinking back on those days, I'd say the majority of interviewers are looking for a mixture of alpha and beta. Alpha enough to take responsibility and work independently where needed, but beta enough to know their place in the pecking order and submit to those higher up the totem poll (which whoever is interviewing you, most likely is.)

              Once you get caught in a web of shit testing, you will often find yourself justifying your choices and explaining your actions, which wins you no respect and just digs an even deeper hole. Non-Machiavellian logic fails in handling shit tests, people do not respect rationality, they respect only indications of high status. Explaining yourself, no matter how rational your explanation is will be perceived as a demonstration of low status.

              I think is a bit of an oversimplification. I've got an example, but it will need some context (so settle in.) Recently I watched the Question Time episode in the UK where Russell Brand and Nigel Farage appeared. The whole show is effectively the panel justifying their views/actions/policies whatever, to the people in the audience. As you can imagine, different sides of the press were declaring different winners. I found it fascinating from an argumentation formation perspective because Brand is an exceptional example of pure rhetoric with no substance. (As expected the press who declared Farage the winner jumped on the fact that there was no logic or analysis or rational thought process behind Brand's arguments.) Everything was pure rhetoric, but despite this he got the biggest applauses of the evening by far. The reason? Rhetoric is the part of argumentation that connects emotionally with the audience.

              Nigel Farage is not particularly good at rhetoric. However, when you place him next to someone like Russell Brand, you see his style as the sort of charmless logician. (He could almost be considered to relish the role.) Yet he too received many loud rounds of applause for calmly and carefully laying out a strong logical basis for what he concludes. This demonstrates that in general social context... people won't always side with Brand, with the shit test passing rhetoric. Some will reject it in favour of logic and rational deduction.

              From the point of view of argument skill, the height of strong argumentation is to balance fact, principle, logic and rhetoric equally. I've seen time and again that the people who are best at this will sway far more people to their view, whatever it may be. Essentially I think you may have opened up the scope of the article a little too widely in that area.

              [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I really need to watch that Question Time. It's been mentioned to me by a couple of buddies already. Otherwise, good criticisms. And yes, employers eat up the old beta game. They want a pawn just about self-aware enough to be reliable, but not so self-aware they'll cause problems.

              [–]Stopher 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              I like that he puts an index. Awesome.

              [–]Endorsed Contributorleftajar 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              Dude, how do you know so much?!

              This is, straight-up, the best analysis of shit tests I've ever seen, with masterful insights into social dynamics sprinkled liberally throughout.

              Excerpts:

              Those who consider themselves “a bullshit free zone,” eg: masculine men will “ball bust” [...] quite relentlessly to determine “just how much of a man you are.” If you are an effeminate or timid man, you will feel bullied rather than challenged, and that tells the group everything they need to know about you. You will fail to understand that what you are experiencing is a social initiation ritual that all men must go through when they are new to a male-dominated group. You will be relentlessly ridiculed to determine what you’re like and where you fit in on the pecking order. If you are too reactive, you will be rejected and exiled from the group, or relegated to the bottom position as the emotional punch bag everybody ridicules for cheap laughs. To avoid finding yourself condemned to such a fate you must demonstrate you can spar verbally without taking anything to heart.

              ...

              Shit tests are used to “determine your frame.” Frame is a manospherian concept which essentially means “composure and self-control.”

              ...

              If you can keep composure/seem unfazed and/or assert your boundaries despite a shit test, generally speaking you will be considered to have passed said shit test. If you get upset, offended, doubt yourself or show weakness in any other way when shit tested, then generally speaking it is considered you have failed the test. I will surmise this section of the article with a valuable conclusion: passing shit tests psychologically raises your perceived social value to the person testing you, failing shit tests psychologically lowers your perceived social value to the person testing you. Pass people’s shit tests to garner popularity and social success, fail them and you will become an ostracised outcast.

              ...

              Shit tests can be passed in a multitude of ways, so even when passing it’s not strictly a matter of “whether you passed or not” but just as important is “how you passed.” For example, people with a good sense of humour tend to accept negative labels and make jokes out of them, we call this “agree and amplify.” Mentally violent people tend to quickly find a flaw in the person attacking them and deflect by associating the shit test with a weakness perceived in the original tester, thus attempting to humiliate them. We call that a pressure flip.

              ....

              As you may have noticed from the repertoire of woman’s bog standard run-of-the-mill shit tests, they are incredibly fixated on discerning whether or not you are a beta (guy who doesn’t get laid much, if at all.) If in doubt, err towards being an asshole. Being identified as a beta dries up panties quicker than you can boil an egg in a Sahara sauna. If you show boldness and exude a “I will mockingly bullshit you” kind of attitude, you’ll do just fine.

              ...

              As a rule of thumb, the more messed up the individual is, the higher the stakes are, or the higher value the person you’re dealing with; the more severely you will be shit tested. EG: CEOs will shit test harder and more frequently than office assistants, women with daddy issues will shit test more than women who had stable relationships with their fathers.

              ...

              When you’re powerful, other people see opportunities in attempting to bring you down a notch or two [...] It is for this reason that the art of silence -- ignoring your enemies overtly -- is a necessary skillset that all men looking to preserve their accumulated power should master and employ with regularity. It is simple, when you feel someone provoking a response from your ego, interject your emotions with the question “is there a way for me to benefit from responding to this?” if the answer is no, then replying is pointless [...] people do not respect rationality, they respect only indications of high status. Explaining yourself, no matter how rational your explanation is, will be perceived as a demonstration of low status. Do not justify yourself; if you find yourself explaining yourself in the midst of an argument or theatrical device, you’re losing and would be far better off just immediately exiting stage instead.

              ...

              Dark triad shit tests will be the topic of a future article.

              Looking forward to it.

              [–]SamGill 2 points3 points  (3 children)

              oh the good old "are you drunk" shit test.

              she knows you're not drunk. it's more like an insult.

              maybe i should respond by saying "are you retarded?"

              [–]Smekiz 5 points6 points  (0 children)

              Yeah, no. Thats reacting to her shit.

              [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Well, sure got a chuckle out of me! Say it mockingly in a jovial manner and you're good. Sound butthurt saying the same thing and well, shit test failed. Like I said, it's not exactly what you say, but how you say it and what "shit test buster" you use to pass the test.

              [–]systemshock869 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I just got asked this a couple days ago. I just said a flat 'nope' and continued with my frame.. Not sure if it was ideal or not. This was one of my first attempts since I was introduced to TRP so I'm still a noob.

              [–]ColdEiric 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              “I have a boyfriend!” – Translation: I have Schrödinger’s boyfriend, demonstrate to me you’re high value and I’ll fuck you regardless. It is hilarious when they say this. “What boyfriend, your imaginary one?” – Then laugh in her face.

              Thank you for this. Schrödinger's boyfriend. That's the name for that girlgame-move. Mentally noted.

              [–]dnlslm9 1 point2 points  (6 children)

              Thanks dude. I get shit tested alot.

              I usually pass unless it's a highly sexual shit test. Like asking me if I masturbate. If I have sex with my girlfriend ect... I usually don't respond. I don't like talking about sex. I have a girlfriend and just want some friends but can't make any.

              [–]drrtyfrrnr 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              What are your 'friends' doing asking you about your sexual habits? Just make a Your Mom joke the first time and then say that that sort of stuff is off limits unless they go first.

              [–]rpscrote 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              this is a common way to shit test young guys if you're the older guy. Comfort with your sexuality is an indicator of maturity and emotional development in a man. Thus, if you get defensive you've failed a man-shit-test and you get put on the bottom of the totem pole. Worked at a meat shop in high school, older guys would pull this all the time. I failed for a while with this getting defensive until my gf at the time came in, and she was pretty hot so they all shut up after that since im 90% sure she was hotter than anything they were tapping, lol. Helps we were both 17 at the time...

              [–]Philhelm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              I usually pass unless it's a highly sexual shit test. Like asking me if I masturbate.

              Tell them that you keep trying to masturbate but your mouth just can't quite reach your penis. If they say that's gay or something, tell them that it's not that you want to suck your dick, but that your dick wants to be sucked. Then say, "Why does a dog lick his balls? Because he can!"

              [–]lycanthr0py 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              Do a super quick pressure flip for example on the masturbation question: "have before, whataboutyou?" Or even "meh,whataboutyou?"

              [–]MoneyBaloney 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              A good idea when a girl shit-tests you on a sexual topic is to look her in the eyes for a few moments, then say "Now I know what you're busy thinking about."

              if you're both sitting down, I recommend touching your dick under the table while looking at her. It's subtle enough that she won't think about it, but obvious enough that it ensures her mind is going there.

              [–]wildmetacirclejerk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              worth stickying, if not already done so

              [–][deleted]  (1 child)

              [deleted]

                [–]_valtiel_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                Take their plate and eat it in front of him or her while maintaining eye contact.

                [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                [deleted]

                  [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Nowadays, some pissant can eat your lunch and you ignore, and remain aloof?

                  No. I talk about calibrating the chosen solution to the given situation. If you chose to ignore in that situation then you would be failing the shit test by failing to set boundaries. You must have misread.

                  [–]naji247 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                  What...? Never give a serious answer to the question "How many women have you been with". Even if it's high. That is a well known RP no-no.

                  Edit: It's even one of Rollo's iron rules http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/22/youve-been-with-how-many-girls/

                  [–]nuc22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  One of the girls asked me this exactly. I answered that I am not gonna tell you.

                  [–]tyofwa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  In 18 years of marriage, my wife still asks indirectly. She will deny wanting to know officially, but it is clear she keeps a mental tally of all the "confirmed" history.

                  There is nothing positive to gain by sharing the information. Conversely there is a lot to lose because it will come back in one form or another.

                  [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  Guess we disagree on that point. If you said 200 and it was true she wouldn't believe you anyway. More than one way to beat a shit test.

                  [–]Karol754 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                  I feel we should change the name, "shit test", to "masculinity test". It would make it much more easier to explain.

                  [–]Ditario 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                  I know that would have helped me greatly. It still gets confusing a little bit in looking for "shit tests" because of the word itself. Maybe that's just me though.

                  [–]BluepillProfessor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Your 'Shit' is your masculinity and she is indeed testing that or more particularly your masculine frame.

                  However, especially in a LTR she is also throwing "Shit" at you. She is not throwing "masculinity" at you.

                  [–]Karol754 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  No there are others that have a similar confusion. I know I did.

                  [–]ChemEJew 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                  What about the one where they describe how great another guy is? Like, "oh, he has a good job, is handsome, and so tall..." to try and make you jealous/see how you react?

                  What is a good response to that?

                  Edit: I usually do something along the lines of, "Oh, sounds like someone has a crush!", or "oh man, he sounds great! You should totally set me up with him!", the last one in a sarcastically eager/joking way so she doesnt think I'm actually gay....

                  [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                  Hahaha I love it when women do that it's so textbook. They do this when discussing their "boyfriend" as well. You ask them FUCK ALL about their man, you mention nothing about your partner (if you have one, or not) and between flirting they will not stop blabbing on and on about their boyfriends..

                  I usually ignore or misdirect (change topic) because I really don't give a damn about her boyfriend or how he makes her feel or what they do together or where they're going or blah blah blah. If we could get a ruler and measure how many fucks I give, you would find not a millimetre of interest.

                  Personally I think women mention their boyfriends all the time when it's obvious they fancy you so that if anything happens it's easier for them to blame you "I did tell him I had a boyfriend but he just kept pursuing me and wore me down!" .... "it just happened!" woe is her, it's not her fault. LOL. So predictable.

                  [–]Ditario 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  Could you elaborate on the ignore and misdirect? Wouldn't it just seem like you failed that test if you ignore it?

                  [–]Moszne 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  It is great. I read it whole and it's finnaly great post about shit test.

                  [–]waffleman7 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  This is a great post , thanks for sharing it .

                  [–]rpscrote 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Shroedingers Boyfriend PERFECTLY encapsulates that whole concept... gonna steal

                  [–]jdoe5 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  This should replace the shit tests link on the side bar, or at least be added to it.

                  [–]IkilledJarJar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  What's the difference between shit-tests and teasing? When I'm with my guy friends and we see each other, we usually like to tease each other about what's happening in our lives.

                  [–]celanyc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Finally an article that explains shit testing in depth without just regurgitating the same old material and examples that you see all over the other blogs and forums. This is a must read for anyone who is trying to improve their social game.

                  [–]TheeRyanGrey 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                  As always you bring an intelligence that is rarely matched in this wide discussion of ours.

                  Your insight is the result of obvious testing and real life moments of pressure and provide a much needed commodity.

                  I have recommended your writing and website to countless men and will continue to do so.

                  [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Thanks for the support, much appreciated.

                  [–]ThatKassiusGuy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  This was exactly what I wanted. I've been struggling to understand the 'shit test' but after reading this I feel like I have a much better understanding.

                  [–]epixs 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                  About 1/3 a way through so far. Your subtle humor is hilarious!

                  [–]lolbroo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Good Stuff, Illimitablemen. I thoroughly enjoy reading your articles, including all the stuff on dark triad etc. Though I understand almost all redpill theory, I just didnt understand shit tests that well. I tried, but it just didn't stay. This should be on the sidebar because I feel it can explain the concept of shit tests better than most other stuff I've read on the subject. Now I will know what shit tests are, what the tester wants and I will be able to confront some of them. Hats off, sir.

                  [–]bepdub 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                  Your link is 404.

                  [–]boxofcookies101 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                  Gotta take the ** out the link. Reddit includes that when you just click it.

                  [–]TravellingIndian 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                  The full write-up mentioned watching stand-up comics to build wit and get comfortable with freestyle improvisation conversation.

                  Anything specific you would recommend, especially useful for a non-westerner?

                  [–]TravellingIndian 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                  my bad .. didn't check out the red pill comedy page

                  [–]psychedelicjourney 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                  Well, if the couple months to this day were a part of a shit test, NO SHIT I DON'T WANT THAT. I don't know, I guess some of us are weaker than we think. There are things that I just can't handle.

                  [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  Start lifting bro. This sub isn't for quitters. Your strength/power isn't fixed. You can get stronger. Treat life like a game, you need to level up.

                  [–]let_terror_reign 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  Thanks buddy.
                  How do you tell when it's a shit test and when it isn't ?
                  One more thing you could add is that someone passing judgement on something you do is a hard challenge on your frame. I find that when you've lost frame or are trying to establish frame, EVERYTHING seems like a shit test.
                  I'm on the fence between actually my girl seriously and treating her accusations as shit tests. Nothing ever really seems like one though. If shit test = establish her frame, probably always.
                  One more question, when she's actually on point about something, how do you respond? Take her words seriously? That falls into her frame. Ignore? You're ignoring sound advice, still an effective fail. I think you should err on the take it seriously side.

                  [–]classerrr 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                  "Name your biggest weakness."

                  Well, maybe my biggest weakness is that I don't believe I should answer a question just because someone asked me.

                  [–]Philhelm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  Kryptonite and flesh-burrowing spiders.

                  [–]kevkos 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  Great, except for with some girls these are NOT shit tests, they actually want to know things like how many you are dating. I dated a Latina this year and the first night she asked me how many I'm dating, and we only had about 4 dates but the questions kept coming and she was relentless every time until I gave an actual answer, it can be pretty maddening and beyond just shit testing sometimes.

                  [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                  [deleted]

                    [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    Have you read Rollo's amused mastery?

                    http://therationalmale.com/2012/09/14/amused-mastery/

                    [–]loveisstrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    I am a college student and have been reading up on red pill. One shit test I am wondering about is girls asking to buy you a drink.

                    So the one I hear is you buy me a drink you think ill like and ill buy you one i think youll like.

                    Well that is good and all, but the bars have 19 age requirement, so you can come in at 19, but cant buy beer until 21. So when you pull that line, she could say that she cant since she is under 21.

                    What would be a good response?

                    [–]Barrett_M107 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    Whenever I agree and amplify, it turns into a derogatory reference to a body part and I'm a pervert.

                    [–]RedPillLawyer 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                    I usually enjoy your work but I had to stop at "intricately unavoidable."

                    [–]Dark triad expert: - http://illimitablemen.com/ - [3 Points]IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    Yes, "inextricable" without the superfluousness would be better (and I overlooked that in my editing, so thanks for pointing that out) however despite the minor faux pas, the article is very much worth one's time should the topic be of interest.