all 66 comments

[–]MakeMoneyNotWar 34 points35 points  (12 children)

Do less for others. This includes giving away information.

This is an example where I believe I transgressed by giving away too much:

At my work I've often mentored or trained interns or new employees and giving them helpful information. I've usually seen this as a way to improve relationships with people (as you never know who will one day be above you on the ladder). During this year's annual reviews where we have to set a whole bunch of goals (a pointless HR exercise, but I digress), a new employee I mentor asked to see mine as a guide because this isn't my first time doing this. I didn't mind as I usually bullshit these, so I sent them over. A couple days later as the topic came up, I asked this person what ultimately they put as their targets. I was surprised when the person refused to tell me. Although I didn't really care exactly what they put because I was just curious whether they copied me, this raised a red flag in my head. Thankfully, the information I requested was really not that important, but it's information that I gave without receiving anything in return. In other words, I freely gave away some power without compensation. I thought that as a more senior employee would did a favor for a more junior employee, the junior would reciprocate. I was wrong. Thankfully there is no lasting damage here that I see, except that I must reevaluate my relationship with this person.

However, the lesson here is that to give information, you must receive information first. Thinking back, what I should have done was asked this person to come up with their targets first and show me so I can give them pointers. This would be an exchange of information, not just me giving information.

[–]Endorsed Contributorleftajar 19 points20 points  (2 children)

Excellent point. Reminds me of this exchange from the Office, as cited in the seminal work on Powertalk. (see sidebar for link)

Fluent Powertalk

At a Dunder-Mifflin management party, shortly after Michael and Jan disclose their affair to David Wallace, per HR requirements, Wallace casually invites Jim to blow off the party for a while and shoot hoops in the backyard. Once outside, Wallace nonchalantly asks, “So what’s up with Jan and Michael?” He is clearly fishing for information, having observed the bizarre couple dynamics at the party.

Jim replies, “I wouldn’t know…(pregnant pause)…where to begin.” (slight laugh)

David Wallace laughs in return. This is as eloquent as such a short fragment of Powertalk can get. Here are just some of the messages being communicated by the six words and the meaningful pause and laugh.

  • Message 1: It is a complex situation (literal).
  • Message 2: I understand you think something bizarre is going on. I am confirming your suspicion. It is a bizarre mess, and you should be concerned.
  • Message 3: This is the first significant conversation between us, and I am signaling to you that I am fluent in Powertalk.
  • Message 4: I know how to communicate useful information while maintaining plausible deniability.
  • Message 5: I am not so gratified at this sign of attention from you that I am going to say foolish things that could backfire on me.
  • Message 6: I am aware of my situational leverage and the fact that you need me. I am not so overawed that I am giving it all up for free.
  • Message 7: I am being non-committal enough that you can pull back or steer this conversation to safer matters if you like. I know how to give others wiggle room, safe outs and exits.
  • Message 8: You still have to earn my trust. But let’s keep talking. What do you have that I could use?

[–]TimPartendale 10 points11 points  (1 child)

I'm not sure what's more impressive: the fact that this was written into the script by very skilled writers or the fact that somebody analyzed said script and characters to such detail.

[–]truchisoft 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You should read The Gervais Principle

Will probably blow your mind.

[–]Draki1903 4 points5 points  (1 child)

However, the lesson here is that to give information, you must receive information first.

This is how information cold war begins.

[–]krazykoo 13 points14 points  (0 children)

This is where you take the first shot in either:

(A) Giving information that appears to have high value, when in actuality it is low value

(B) Disregarding, and thus insulting their potential to even provide valuable information. Discredit them.

Most of the time these techniques will provide the opposing party to believe they have won, or to prove you wrong. Either way, you win :)

[–]1mrust 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Another way of looking at it is that you gained some valuable insight into this person's character. This junior employee is short sighted and looking for immediate payoff rather than building a relationship. I.e. Watch your back.

The lesson for me is always throw the person some crumbs and see if they reciprocate. Curious how they refused. Did they blow you off and just not respond or did they cite confidentiality or give no reason at all?

[–]MakeMoneyNotWar 1 point2 points  (1 child)

The person basically said they don't tell people their targets. In itself may not be significant, but potentially a signal of their character, and certainly a lesson for me on sharing information.

[–]1mrust 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Another way of looking at it: what if this was salary information? I've had people ask me. I just don't tell them. Even as a contractor on a daily rate, the agents will do everything in their power to get you to commit. It will never work in your favor to give that information away.

So clearly this person just placed a higher value on this information than you did.

[–]phil619 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Information is a commodity

[–]fuckwithpurpose 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I agreed with you at first, but here's another perspective: what purpose do you, senior employee who is not in HR, have to ask to see theirs? The junior employee had a purpose, whereas you are simply curious. I wouldn't be surprised if junior employee also felt uncomfortable about saying no to you.

[–]MakeMoneyNotWar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not on a higher rung on the ladder per se, but that I have a few years experience whereas this person is only a few months in. I was still surprised because in the context of all our conversations, it shouldn't have been unusual for me to ask (i.e. we freely threw around ideas for goals and chatted about them or whatnot).

You're right that it could be that the person was simply uncomfortable, or it could be that they are the type of people who take information without giving anything in return. Since I can't know their true motivations, I think the best course of action would be to just be more guarded in what I give in the future. Doesn't mean I turn my back on them or whatever, but certainly a data point in my mind to see if it's a pattern or just an outlier.

[–]Jigsus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You will gain a lot of credibilty if you appear to be a benefactor. If you give away worthless information and others do not do the same to you then you can use this to your advantage. In the coming conflict between you and them you can use your extra credibilty to win any argument.

[–]Endorsed Contributorcocaine_face 94 points95 points  (3 children)

I would really like to see more posts like this.

[–]beerthroway 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I've been trying to get together concepts similar to this for my own social improvement. One I'm working on in particular is expanding the idea from the Gradual Desensitization of Approach Anxiety post:

get someone to reveal something about themselves or do something without you directly asking or telling them.

That can be carried so far to the extreme. Get someone to reveal their lunch without you directly bringing up lunch if you want a serious challenge. How many different ways could one go about that?

I've had a few ideas that I'm still refining, so I'll sit on it.

[–]Turnsideways 19 points20 points  (1 child)

posts like this are what I'm subbed here for

[–]truchisoft 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You should start reading then, /r/RedpillBooks is a good start.

[–]Endorsed Contributor2comment 8 points9 points  (0 children)

If you doubt someones credibility, I.E a plate. Hear their story twice, is their any alarming inconsistencies between the two different times the story was told.

Walk someone through their story backwards and with jumps, using questions and the like. Good liars rehearse their story several times, but usually in a very linear fashion. They'll stumble and get frustrated if they have to create details out of order and there will be a lot of tells.

[–]Apanthropos 8 points9 points  (3 children)

The best way to use this book is to help you realize how you can be manipulated by others, instead of manipulating them.

This describes exactly how women behave to manipulate men. Most of the techniques come natural for most women as they are better in manipulation than men.

However, this is a very feminine way of dealing with people. The author doesn't realize how obsessed they are with their 'victim', reacting and gauging their actions depending on the victims actions. This dependancy is something that women feel towards their men in a relationship.

Masculinity is all about diffusing the manipulation tactics of others. This is what men are born to do, and is what makes women attracted to us.

[–]16 Endorsed Contributornicethingyoucanthave 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Well said. The knowledge that these tactics exist is amoral. Using them may (some of them are fairly banal) be immoral. In my view, if you find yourself thinking of a girl as a "victim" you've already lost. Ask yourself why you want women in your life. They can add a lot. They can significantly contribute to your happiness. But if you find yourself considering jedi mind tricks to keep her around, then it's not worth it for one thing and unhealthy for another.

Mainly you should know these tactics in order to defend yourself.

[–]Apanthropos 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's not the morality aspect that I am against. There is no morality in sex and love.

Women rely on sex and manipulation because most of them have nothing else to offer. The need to manipulate their man in order to make him change the car tyre. They cant do it themselves.

Men on the other hand have so many skills and qualities which seldomly need to resolve to manipulation tactics. This is why I see manipulation as a feminine type of game which always revolves around the ' victims' actions.

[–]DarthRoach 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unless you wish to climb the ladder in business or politics. Then you have to be able to manipulate people.

[–]0xdada 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Anyone raised in a good family (aka, what brits call posh, or americans call "good") learned these things as the basic tools for negotiating relationships as a child. Middle class people never learn this stuff unless they go to ivy league schools. Poor people learn it on the street.

A lot of this stuff isn't manipulation, it's how you live from the perspective of confidence and ownership. It's standard leadership and management.

Maybe there needs to be a TRP MBA.

[–]Jf5ve 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A lot of this is used in sales as well. Learned many of these things working in a sales job. Great tools to have and can be applied to many different aspects of life not just relationships.

[–]trpill 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This is exactly the type of stuff I want to see more of here.

Props to you OP. I look forward to more posts from you.

[–]pachan 1 point2 points  (9 children)

i looked it up on amazon and its being sold for over 2000 $ wtf.

does anybody have an idea where i can get it for a reasonable price?

[–]bxdiplomat 13 points14 points  (0 children)

[–]1bicepsblastingstud 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Just read carnegie's book instead.

[–]hippydippybs 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Holy shit what an awesome tactic.

"Fuck me it's $2,000! I need it!"

Chapter 1: "You bought this book for either $2,000, or $2. Either way, you've been manipulated."

Check-mate, atheists.

[–]dexplorer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Most of the books mentioned in the sub are available at bookzz.org

Click Here for this particular book.

[–]Daisy_DukeNukem -1 points0 points  (4 children)

There's a copy an ebay for 988 dollars. But in all seriousness, I think combing the internet for an ecopy pdf to read would be the best solution. A few people on the forum say they have the ecopy but the book is so obscure that there are no torrents of it. I guess we could ask OP?

[–]pachan 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I think combing the internet for an ecopy pdf to read would be the best solution.

i did. now i didnt put alot of effort into it but the only thing i found is some bullshit websites trying to manipulate me into subscribing...

[–]thebalrog_ofmorgoth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

same here. hope somebody knows where to find it

[–]thebalrog_ofmorgoth 0 points1 point  (1 child)

according to google, it's held by only 4 libraries in the world. one of these being The Library of Congress. the other three are in south africa and kenya. this makes me want it soo much more

[–]Daisy_DukeNukem -1 points0 points  (0 children)

i like how it would be cheaper if someone bought a plane ticket to DC, got access to the library of Congress, and smuggled a scanner. In any case, I have no idea why someone with the book wouldn't scan every page and try to sell it.

[–]smokingmonkey420 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This should go along with the OP quite well. Manipulation works because of the logical biases inherent in our thinking. Essentially, it is the source of manipulation.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

[–]charlesbukowksi 1 point2 points  (7 children)

Incidentally Scribd is not shy about the fact that they charge you for material they culled from pirate sites. For goodness' sake bookzz.org is in the title of the OP's link.

If you want to pay the same amount Scribd paid, go here.

[–]Jigsus 0 points1 point  (6 children)

I've heard bad things about the new demonoid site.

[–]charlesbukowksi 0 points1 point  (5 children)

The only thing I can say is that their selection could be better. What did you hear?

[–]Jigsus 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Lots of spyware and rumors of honeypit torrents.

[–]charlesbukowksi 0 points1 point  (3 children)

i haven't noticed spyware but i use a lot of e-condoms

i heard the honeypot thing too. if you're the kind of person who has to worry about that then you shouldn't be using demonoid (or any non-quality non-private trackers), i agree.

[–]Jigsus 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Ok then. Do you have an invite?

[–]charlesbukowksi 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I don't have any right now but you can ask on /r/trackers if you're keen

oh and if you just want the book, this is the original bookzz source: http://bookzz.org/book/1265091/900cea

[–]2asd1100 2 points3 points  (11 children)

Oh boy, this is going to be a long one...

Are the person constantly trying to reaffirm how much their offer/solution/idea will benefit you? He/She is probably up to something. Because they obviously know that it's not a good offer they have.

no, they already know their solution(sex) is benefiting you. They won't hard sale you, because they don't have to. They will indirectly sale their satisfation trough indirect attitude feedback so you associate her happiness with getting laid.

If you doubt someones credibility, I.E a plate. Hear their story twice, is their any alarming inconsistencies between the two different times the story was told.

it depends, can you trust memories? I am a profesional liar, I never have my story straigh and nobody expects me to. Memory is foggy, lies are clear, because they are made up. If your really want to spot a lie, listen to repetative idioms: "and that is why men are pigs" or "that is why I have trouble trusting men", in cases like this the story is nitpicked or made up to reafirm her cognitive bias.

Analyze a person and find out what to reinforce in them. Is it money? Ego-caressing? Sex? Intermittent reinforcement will not work if there is nothing to reinforce.

great advice, if you are asskissing a beta, or a socially unaware man. In reality(people that aren't autistic) you want to challenge his source of validation, a hot chick might be her ability to raise bonners a marketing exec his ability to bullshit and up sale and so on. Offer him a oportunity to get succes not just empty validation. People love to thrive but rarelly get served a ball low enouth to hit it out of the park.(this is what a good wingman should do)

Smile, although not ALL the time. Don't make your smile look smug and manipulative. So, smile before and after saying something that would merit a smile.

No, have a life that is fun, engaging and proud of. Gratuitous smiles are creepy.

Covert flattery: Tell people that something they said has helped you. Ask people about how they got into their business or career and actually listen.

baseball analogy, also, words are irrelevant when dealing with women, so actually proving something small is better than talking big.

Swallow your pride and appear meek and humble. This way you will avoid high expectations and enemies looking for revenge.

No, you just don't brag about it. power is not demonstrated overtly only in open conflict, the only thing you demonstrate by bragging is that you don't know combat, you don't know how to use power and the perils of bragging. Think of poker, what do you think if a player brags and even shows that he has 2 aces before the face cards are even turned. At worst you think he is a idiot, at best you think he doesn't know how to play. Are those aces any good now? Everyone that goes up against him will be guarded now, he literally can't win anymore because he showed his hand.(note: there are some scenarios where a crazy play is advantageous, but that is a whole nother level of game)

Whenever someone tries to chew you off or have a "hurtful" remark. Just say: "You are probably right". This way the other person won't know what to say, because you agree with everything they say. All in all, you will avoid friction and your future manipulations will be easier.

is this a beta manual WTF? You either humor him or you bite his neck off. You have 2 speeds, civil and fun and war machine. You don't take shit. You either reframe and make him eat his own shit, or regret he woke up the dragon.

Ask a VERY direct question while maintaining eye contact about something you want to know. It will take approximately three seconds for the victim to regain their composure before answering. In these three seconds, at the victims eyes and general facial expression and interpret their response.

yeah, this book is for the lowest of the low in terms of social awareness, they can't even atempt real talk because nobody would take them seriously. (it can work for women, if you convinced her that you aren't socially retarded, she might go for the bluff, jut be prepared to take real burning hardcore shittests after that can of worms is opened)

Rule of thumb no. 2

holy oxymoron :))

This will do two things, you will be able to pick out the core of the objections you have to overcome and you will seem caring and avoid any resentment from the victim.

or just look like a atustic docuhe that purposefully disregards a persons perspective. Real advice: expand on their obejctins find out their real position and the reasoning behind that position. At this point you could attempt to build a bridge from that position to your desired outcome.(this is expecially important in B2B talks)

Overcome the victims objections by stating your case right.

please don't do this after you know their position, you are basically giving them a big fuck you, I am still right.

After you have stated the case, come up with a remark that makes it sound like you need the person less than the person needs yo

obvious sales technique is obvious. This position should only be worked on in the initial phase. When you are framing the dinamic. After that it's like giving negs when you are already fucking to remind her you are "so much alpha"

When you sense that the victim disagrees with you less than before and is paralyzed by indecision, it is time to apply pressure.

or give her a way out, lend a hand...give her a out to run away from the decision and distance herself from responsibility. Your desired outcome does not need to come from her. I would take a in with a boss and a grateful underling any day of the week over a verbal agreement with the underling.

The amount of ingratitude you receive is proportional to the debt a person owes you. This is because the person has already benefitted from you, and has no reason to flatter you anymore. There is nothing left to gain.

debt without leverage is a gift. Frame it properly, bitching about dishonor is idiotic.

These techniques also need to come from a place of emotional contro

Do they?

[–]Melodramati[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

You have some interesting perspectives. This is cool. But you seem to have disregarded the first part of the second edit:

What some of you may have to remember is that not all of this applies to EVERY situation you EVER encounter. It is merely tools for getting what you want from people.

What I meant is that you have to use this appropriately, don't use these techniques if you have limited social skills to begin with or you will come off as an autist (Which you also pointed out). This is also why most PUA theory sucks balls, because people with no real success or social skills try to use it, usually becoming more desperate and coming off like an Asperger.

Most people should be able to judge when it's imperative that you stand up for yourself.

However, I am pleased to see someone respond negatively to this. Encouraging a debate to recognize common truths will surely make this subreddit more refined and useful.

[–]2asd1100 2 points3 points  (2 children)

What some of you may have to remember is that not all of this applies to EVERY situation you EVER encounter. It is merely tools for getting what you want from people.

I did not disregard it. Where I tought the advice is at least contextually good I did not touch it just to shit on the man. My interventions are strictly for where the advice is dumb, and only autistic people that have literally no social awareness could even consider it usefull. That is why I think self help is predatory and cruel. It preys on people that have no skills and gives them nothing packaged up as something, and they are too dumb to realise it.

if you have limited social skills to begin with or you will come off as an autist

that is the fucking thing, this book is for those that don't have common sense. How about this policy, put on every diet manual a disclaimer right on the front: if you eat to much, even of this shit, you will still be fat.

Most people should be able to judge when it's imperative that you stand up for yourself.

absolutely agree, how about we start telling them that and teaching them how and when to do that, instead of selling them prepackaged circumstantial bullshit that smells like genius. Because you can't sell to people that are normal, because you can't sell to people that are ok. Because you can only sell your weak ass material to those that are dumb and desperate.(not you but self help authors, bloggers and other scavengers of the human condition)

I am pleased to see someone respond negatively to this. Encouraging a debate to recognize common truths will surely make this subreddit more refined and useful.

the internet it not for debate, it's for promotion and isolating yourself among other tribe members that share your particular bias.

[–]Melodramati[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I do see your point, albeit I think you exaggerate it greatly. I think some of these techniques can help you in some situations. But it is too bad if someone read the book and think that it will turn their life around and give them dark triad super powers (A problem I have with how some people jerk off the concept of Dark Triad is that they treat it like it's something extremely cool that gives you super powers and leads to a fulfilling life.). This book was written in the context of sales, cons and dating. A lot of the advice is some advice I definitely don't think applies much in dating I think that the author just wanted to make the book appeal to as many people as possible.

That is what you have remember everytime you read "Self-help" from someone who sells ebooks, the author will always have some sort of agenda, which will usually be earning money from people with aspergers. I also definetly stress the fact that this is not a manual on how to live your life, it will probably lead you to becoming unpopular and weird.

the internet it not for debate, it's for promotion and isolating yourself among other tribe members that share your particular bias.

I most definitely agree that this is how most people act on the internet and this is not only what happens on seddit, femninist subreddits etc. It is also very prevalent here on TRP and in the manosphere in general, just look at rooshvforum. I got banned permanently for "having a bad attitude" there, because I argued that "good game" may not be able to compensate for good looks, good money and good status.

[–]2asd1100 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was a grifter all trough highschool. I know snake oil and I know fools. I find mass grifting morally condemnable. Sure one-on-one is reasonable we are all humans and we need to eat, but doing it on mass is just evil.

A problem I have with how some people jerk off the concept of Dark Triad is that they treat it like it's something extremely cool that gives you super powers and leads to a fulfilling life.

I have the same problem, but guess who is to blame for selling them that fantasy?

it will probably lead you to becoming unpopular and weird.

now that's a title

I got banned permanently for "having a bad attitude" there, because I argued that "good game" may not be able to compensate for good looks, good money and good status.

Oh,,,well you where(circumstantially) wrong, but that's no reason to ban someone. Enjoy the hate, I get a good ego stroke everytime I break a circle jerk. ANd since the internet is free and I have a lot of accounts in reserve I don't even get bothered when I get banned.

[–]Jigsus 0 points1 point  (6 children)

I don't agree that accepting a bit of criticism makes you weak. Accepting a small bit of criticism will pull the rug from under their feet.

"You're selfish!

Yeah maybe I am selfish! I want things to work out for me but you always plan it so they don't."

Boom! They've been disarmed.

[–]2asd1100 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Depends.

Theoretically you are spot on. In practice there are people I want criticism from, which I don't provoke into actively criticizing me, rather I just ask for, or they give men feed back.

And people that don't know what the fuck they are talking about and all their accusations are ad hominem because they don't have any other emotional leverage.

This whole, lets all just be friends or can't we all just get along, is beta, is weak, it's a emotional handicap you put on yourself, not out of respect for those around your but out of fear of confrontation and standing up for yourself.

[–]Jigsus 0 points1 point  (4 children)

I just try to stay out of arguments with those kinds of people.

[–]2asd1100 0 points1 point  (3 children)

because you only think of the exchange, not the consequences that walking out, deflecting or calling for a referee, have on your position within that group. After a couple of those, you come back here and wonder why people don't respect your opinion or why the ignore you. Because you don't stand for anything, your are just a movable object, you are not a not in the social web anymore.

Being a human is not a fairytale, other people are not inherently good or nice and just because you are sentient does not give you inherent value when dealing with those people. Conflict has/is and always will be a crucial part of the game. What level that conflict takes varies, but it is always there, and if you aren't at least aware of it, your are just a casualty.

[–]Jigsus 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I don't have that problem. My opinion is usually highly valued in the group.

[–]2asd1100 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Really, when did the group do what you wanted for a change? Do you even get to expres a preference or are you just another vote?

[–]Jigsus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My opinion is usually taken as fact by my group of friends. I don't usually care about steering people to go do what I want. I just go and if people want to come with me they do.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]Bortasz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    If this is short... Make long one. It will be nice article.

    [–]bama79rolltide 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I tried to find a hardcover. This book costs hundereds of dollars.

    Did the link ask you to subscribe?

    [–]Never_despair 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Great post. Thanks for your work of putting this together!

    [–]apackofwankers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    If you doubt someone's credibility, I.E a plate. Hear their story twice, is their any alarming inconsistencies between the two different times the story was told.

    Hear their story twice, the second time, ask questions that work the story backwards. It takes a lot more mental effort to lie in reverse.

    [–]HS-Thompson 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Of note: if you have the Scribd app installed on your iPhone or similar device you can view the whole thing easily in the app without registering or logging in.

    [–]rpquest 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    This post is one of those moments where you see TRP at its finest. /u/IllimitableMan should totally see this.

    [–]Overzealous_BlackGuy -1 points0 points  (1 child)

    Question, I had read somewhere that being manipulative is beta, and you shouldn't rely on these techniques. Just be great at all you can , be confident, and people will gravitate towards you.

    [–]TimPartendale -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

    Manipulation is used by the greatest of alpha males, they do it so naturally that you don't even know you're being manipulated ;)